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PT Why Yoda doesn't beat Sidious

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Love SW2012, Jul 20, 2020.

  1. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Based on what? All I hear your own headcanon without any source behind. While I am providing proofs that why there was no spirits, you are still insisting on your own headcanon.

    I still don't know what's the basis of those statues are being the Sith spirits.

    Why do you think we see them behind Rey? There is nothing behind her. Again, it's a baseless suggestion.

    Vader killed Sidious. And more importantly, Sidious has foreseen Vader's betrayal in RotJ according to TRoS Novel. And Sidious was prepared to escape to his own clone body, because that's all he could if Vader betrays them, and Sidious and the past spirits of Sith couldn't possess Luke's body, if Luke kills him as a Jedi. There was no such a thing.

    If your theory was correct, all Sidious could do was letting Vader to kill himself, or letting Luke to kill himself, then he could possess either Vader's body before mortally wounding Vader, or he could possess even a better body if he let Luke to kill himself.

    But he did none of it, just like he didn't do that when Ben Solo and Rey tried to kill him, he tried to kill them back, all he should do letting Rey to kill himself so he and spirits of the Sith could possess Rey's body.

    This is why what you're saying makes no sense. If the spirits of the Sith lords were actually exists, they would possess other Jedi bodies many times before instead of escaping to a broken, and dying Sidious's clone body which was rotten and crippled.

    Sidious and the past spirits of the Sith lords couldn't do that, which is why Sidious didn't let Vader or Luke to kill himself, because they were Jedi, and the Sith couldn't possess their body against their will. It's very simple really.

    So just like Sidious and the past sith lords couldn't possess Vader's or Luke's bodies, they couldn't possess Yoda's body as well. I understand you're trying to find excuses on why Yoda didn't beat Sidious, but your excuse really makes no sense. And it's already confirmed that Sidious can't do that when a Jedi kills him, which happened twice (killing Sidious), and they didn't do that twice.

    Yoda simply couldn't defeat Sidious, because Sidious was more powerful than he could deal with. Sidious is the guy who is more powerful than people like Maul, Dooku and even Vader, so Yoda's failure to defeat Sidious was related to that. It has nothing to do with seeing the past spirits of the Sith lords.

    Yoda himself said that the Sith are ''captivated'' by the physical realm, so Yoda already knows that the ''spirits'' of the Sith doesn't even exists, so that debunks your theory. The reason why Yoda give up is because he wasn't powerful enough to defeat Sidious, not because of non-existent spirits of the Sith lords. The sith are captivated by the physical realm, they don't have spirits like Jedi has. They can't take over the Jedi's body, or not even a Sith's body. Sidious didn't even have any access to Plagueis's power despite killing Plagueis personally. So that's metaphorical. Just like Rey saying she is all the Jedi.

    Nope. Kylo was in the same situation as Vader. Sidious gives him a direct order, which is killing Rey.

    Kylo had to obey Sidious. Otherwise Sidious was going to turn his fleet against him if Kylo doesn't kill Rey.

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    Sidious's influence over Kylo was even bigger than Sidious's influence over Vader's. Sidious was basically inside of Kylo's head from the beginning, Sidious was manipulating him through Vader's and Snoke's voices. And Snoke was Sidious's puppet. So nothing actually is different between Sidious-Vader and Sidious(Snoke)-Kylo. So it's baseless to say that Kylo can defy Sidious's orders. He couldn't.

    Another obvious thing is that Snoke as well ordered Kylo to kill Rey in the Last Jedi, and Snoke was Sidious's puppet from the beginning. So Sidious really wanted Rey dead.

    Sith didn't live inside of Rey when she killed Sidious, she was still a Jedi.
    Sith didn't live inside of Vader when he killed Sidious, he was still a Jedi.

    So your theory still doesn't make sense and it's baseless to say that the past ''spirits'' of Sith lords can possess a Jedi's body, they never did, and they simply can't. I already proved that Plagueis wasn't even part of Sidious's power according to the novel, when Sidious personally killed Plagueis by himself. So we know that Sidious didn't have any access to the past sith lord's memories and their powers, so that's only metaphorical. Just like Rey saying ''I am all the Jedi''.

    Another reason why the past Sith lords spirits can't actually live or do anything is because the Sith are ''captivated'' by the physical realm, they can't have spirits like Jedi has.

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    Which is why Plagueis doesn't have any spirit inside of Sidious, and he doesn't talk to him, like the Jedi Force ghosts talks to other Jedi.

    If you read the discussion as whole, Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid says that the past spirits of the Sith (which is proven that the Sith can't even have spirits like the Jedi but nevermind that) can possess the other Jedi's body against the Jedi's will. Which I find it ridiculous. I think that's just an excuse why Yoda failed beat Sidious, but even as an excuse that doesn't make any sense. So what you're saying really doesn't matter, because if that theory was true, the past spirits of the Sith can take over Anakin Skywalker's body as well, against Anakin's will. But it never happen anything like that.

    Because Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid claims that if Yoda killed Sidious, the past Sith lords would possess Yoda's body against Yoda's will, so Yoda knew that, and that's why he gave up on fightings. That absolutely makes no sense, for one, Yoda himself said the Sith are captivated by the physical realm, so he didn't know anything like that, and secondly; if Sidious and the spirits of the Sith had any power like that, since Sidious has foreseen Vader's betrayal in RotJ according to TRoS novel, Sidious wouldn't wound Vader or he wouldn't stop Luke when Luke was trying to kill him, he would send Vader away from the throne room, they would be alone in that room and Sidious would just let Luke to kill him, so the past sith lords would take Luke's body. But we know that didn't happen with Vader when Vader killed him and it didn't happen with Rey when Rey killed him, so that's nothing but a baseless excuse on why Yoda didn't beat Sidious for now.

    I also agree what you say about Windu, Sidious absolutely wasn't faking to lose against him, which is why he send a powerful Force lightning to kill him, which could actually kill Windu if Windu wasn't prepared to deflect it right back at Sidious.

    And not only Sidious said twice that Kylo should kill Rey in TRoS, Sidious also tried to do the same earlier by using Snoke in the Last Jedi, Kylo was going to kill Rey, or Snoke was going to kill Rey, it would be the same result, and that was Sidious's wish, because Rey wasn't going to turn to the dark side. And like Snoke said she had a true spirit of a Jedi, she needed to die for that reason.

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    Sidious wasn't going to make the same mistake he did with Luke and Vader. Snoke also said the same that Vader made the mistake on not killing Luke, so which is why they (Sidious and Snoke) forced Kylo to kill Rey this time.
     
  2. ThisIsTheWay

    ThisIsTheWay Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2019
    The ROTS novelization’s explanation is sufficient enough for me.

    Yoda decided to tactically retreat because he realized midnight that the Jedi had spent the last 1,000+ years training to fight an enemy that no longer exists. He couldn’t beat the Sith, but he could survive long enough to pass on what he learned to the person who would.
     
  3. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    When Rey reaches the throne of the Sith on Exegol and Palpatine appears there are suddnely thousands of hooded figures in the gallery around and behind Rey. Later they are turned to dust when wind and rock hit them. They are wiped out. Some are calling these the Sith Eternal. The context of the movie leads me to believe these are the Sith Souls inside Darth Sidious personified. And yes, they are sort of eternal. They're seeming to last or persist forever, especially on account of being tedious or annoying. They are the previous Sith Lords.

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    I don't understand what Sidious's motivation would be in letting Vader betray him if he foresaw it. To my eyes in the movie Vader catches Sidious completely by surprise. Sidoius can't even his Vader with his lightening. It's too later. Vader is already holding his master and the lightening his hitting them both.

    Sidious doesn't want to posses Vader or Luke's body. He wants his own body. What Sidious wants is to find out who is stronger. If it's Vader then Luke is killed removing one more Jedi threat to the Sith. If Luke wins Sidious just upgraded his apprentice. That means Luke is more powerful than Vader. And that makes Luke a more valuable tool for Sidious. They can do even crazier rad evil stuff together.


    Sidious used Ben Solo and Rey to rejuvinate himself. After that he killed them. They served his purpose. Palpatine was back and badder than ever. He's got his own body again at full power. He's stronger than Rey or Ben. No advantage possessing Rey.

    There was no good choice on the Death Star 2 for the Sith Lords to possess. If they could possess Anakin, he was going to be dead in 20 minutes. He's a dead end. The broken dying Sidious clone was the best option. Yes it was dying but would be dying for decades. Vader wasn't going to be alive long enough to watch an entire Star Wars movie.

    Luke refuses to keep fighting. Luke wouldn't attack Sidious. So he's out as a body to possess. And Luke didn't kill Sidious. He's not open to possession. And Sidious loves his own body. He doesn't want to give it up. When the Sith Lords transfer to someone else it's because the current Sith Master failed.

    I think when a powerful Jedi fights a Sith Master, to kill the Sith Master in open combat requires the Jedi to tap into the Dark Side. That opens them up in the moment to being possessed. It's sort of against the Jedi's will, except in the moment, through their actions of using the Dark Side they are accepting it.

    I think Yoda would have had to open himself to the Dark Side to kill Sidious. He'd of had to get angry, get really tough, and really violent. He'd use the Dark Side. Yoda was in a no win situation. He sees there is no way he win a fight with the Sith Master. Either Yoda gets killed. Or Yoda becomes the Sith Master.

    That's why Yoda and Obi-Wan chill out for 20 years instead of setting up an ambush to kill Vader or to kill Sidious. They don't even try to fight him again. They don't try to find a moment to strike when they'd have an advantage. Pop in on Sidious while he's in the bathroom. Etc. It's a Catch-22.


    Obi-Wan beat Anakin cause it was Obi-Wan's day for it. Obi-Wan beat Maul. If they caught the opponent at the right time they could kill them. Why aren't they trying to find that moment with Sidious? Instead they hide out and talk to Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan and Yoda go on a completely different path to defeat the Sith. A path past Jedi never took.

    YES! Agreed. The Sith are captivated and held captive by the physical realm. These Sith "spirts" are very different than Force Ghosts. Maybe spirit isn't even the right word. Perhaps phantom, spector, or shadow is more accurate. Because technically these Sith Lords aren't dead. They have no body. No physical form. But the Sith are so scared of death. So scared of loosing their powers, they found a way to keep their midichlorians, their soul, anchored and in the living world by clinging like a parasite to another person's soul.

    These dead Sith Lords are not immortal like a Force Ghost. They are not one with the Force. Their greed and fear keeps them separate from the Force and in the living realm. It's unnatural. They remain in the living world after death. Yoda and Obi-Wan die and find immortality. Even their bodies become one with the Force. The Sith Specters are not immortal. They are just cheating death.

    It's a trick. A cheat code to keep living on. And it's probably a horrible existence, but they are not dead. They continue one. And that is better than nothing.

    I think Plagueis's ever living soul is fused to Sidious's . Plagueis is now another face in the crowd that is inside Sidious. I'd imagine it's not like Force Ghosts the way they talk to Sidious. It's more like the voices of schizophrenia. And sometime we see the mob of dead Sith take over the reactions Palpatine has. That's why Palpatine seems hungry for Luke or Anakin to cut him down. Those schizophrenic voices want an upgraded host body. But Sidious must master them. Push them back. He's the Sith Master. He's the best.



    That's why the old Sith don't take over Anakin. Because Sidious is still in charge. He's still stronger than Anakin. Sidious is master of the dead Sith. They will obey him. Sidious as master does not want to be replaced by Anakin. Sidious wouldn't let it happen willingly.

    One last thing. I think the Force Ghosts are requried to kill the Sith. And it maybe have to take place on Exegol. When Sidious dies on Exegol the Jedi Spirits are there to make sure those Sith Souls finally do become one with the Force and leave the living realm to dissipate in the Cosmic Force. They loose their individuality.

    I'm really enjoying this conversation. Thanks for asking so many questions. It's helping me find better words to convey what I think the movies are telling us is happening.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
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  4. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    These are the ''heretics'' of Sith Eternal, they are not spirits of the Sith lords, and they are definitely not past Sith lords.

    Again, you are giving misinformation, just search and read about them, you can find it easily what they are.

    I specifically posted the line from the novel, it looks like you are not reading it.

    That's how Sidious survived getting killed, he prepared himself in RotJ for that reason. I posted that line from the TRoS novel.

    If he wasn't prepared he was just going to die like Plagueis.

    And yet you claim, not only Sidious could possess a clone body (which doesn't even exists in PT) of his when he wasn't prepared in PT, he could take a Jedi master's body against that Jedi's will? Yeah, that's completely baseless.


    Again, you are talking about a different movie.

    Sidious wants Rey to possess him. That's why he was ready to die if Rey accepted his offer. So, ''He wants his own body.'' is your baseless claim.

    That claim also contradicts with what we've seen in the PT movie. He also previously said ''Darth Vader will be stronger than either of us (Yoda and him)'', Sidious also wants a successor that stronger than himself.

    Sidious also wants Luke, because Vader failed to be his stronger successor, but Luke could've been that. So logically, Sidious wanted the same thing for Luke, he wants a stronger dark sider than himself. That's the only reason why he tried to replace Vader with Luke.

    He also said Kylo should kill Rey, (twice) as well as Snoke said Kylo should kill Rey, and then Kylo could be the new Emperor. And there would be no Dyad to restore Palpatine's power, he would still stay crippled while Kylo was growing stronger in the dark side and he would be the new Emperor as Sidious said.

    Ok, what you are talking about when Sidious had no other choice because they were Jedi, not Sith.

    That's for one, and the other is Sidious had no idea that Ben Solo could survive the Knights of Ren, or he could be there in time before he defeats Rey.

    Sidious never planned to repair his own body, that happened spontaneously. Which is why the Knights of Ren could kill Ben Solo, and before that Kylo and Snoke could kill Rey, and Rey could accept Sidious's offer and Rey could become the Sith Empress, and Sidious would be dead.

    Sidious didn't even know they were Dyad and they could heal him. So that's a baseless claim. Very baseless.

    As if you think Sidious knows everything, but he still get killed by Vader and Rey despite knowing exactly what will happen. No, just stop overrating him, and acting like Sidious knows everything that will happen, he doesn't know it.

    Ok, you don't get it what I am saying.

    If Sidious could possess Anakin's body, he wouldn't mortally wounded him. So Anakin wouldn't be dead in 20 minutes. Do you understand now? He would let him to do it, just like he was letting Rey to do it like this;

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    He is letting Rey to kill as you can clearly see.

    But then he tries to kill Rey by ordering his men;

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    Because there is no spirits of the past lords that can possess Rey's body if he lets Rey to kill, Rey needs to agree to be a dark sider.

    And when Rey killed him, and Rey was still a Jedi. There was no spirits of the sith that get inside of Rey.

    I've no idea where are these claims are coming from. You never even proved the existence of the sith spirits, or they actually exist inside of Sidious.

    And they ''sometimes'' take over the reactions of Palpatine? They definitely not, otherwise Plagueis would help Sidious and he would share his secrets, he wouldn't laugh at Sidious's failure.

    He was going to let it happen with Rey. I've no idea where you are getting this, as if like you watched the half of the movie, only the parts where you can make the theories where Sidious can take over even the Jedi's body and they become the Sith masters against their will. You are focused on one metaphorical line that Sidious said ''all the sith live in me'' but you don't care the rest of the movie where we actually have proof that what is false and what is true. The guy was ok with getting killed by Rey. And now you are saying that he doesn't want to be replaced by Anakin? But he was ok to be replaced by Rey?

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    There is no proof that the Sith spirits actually exists. Rey said she is all the Jedi, it's metaphorical, just like Sidious's line where he says he is all the Sith.

    Well, I already know if Yoda killed Sidious, he wasn't going to become the Sith master just like Rey didn't become one. I was just wondering that if you actually had any proof on what you are claiming, and I still didn't see a single source or any proof yet.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
  5. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Chosen One star 7

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    Mar 26, 2013
    This film was not made with Rise of Skywalker in mind. So it can and should be disregarded in this debate.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
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  6. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    Yeah, I said the same several days ago.

     
  7. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 13, 2014
    As Revenge of the Sith is part of the 9 film Saga, The Rise of Skywalker can and will be regarded in this debate. ;) Just like The Clone Wars is a part of this and the Star Wars Stories, etc.

    Really? First I've heard of it. :han: :bb8:
     
  8. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Sidious was at least marginally stronger than Yoda. That's the realization Yoda comes to, he is the culmination of a thousand years of sith preparation and conspiracy.
     
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  9. DouglasQuaid_JediKnight

    DouglasQuaid_JediKnight Jedi Padawan

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    May 14, 2020
    Because the Dark Side is stronger and Palpatine is the strongest Force user we've ever seen.

    That being said, the whole Mace scene was a little confusing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  10. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 13, 2014
    But Yoda tells Luke the Dark Side isn't stronger. It's easier more seductive. Not stronger.
     
  11. The Maverick

    The Maverick Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 18, 2020
    heh...Obi-Wan did just fine (Maul) as did Anakin (Dooku)
    the ROTS novel suffers from this type of silly pseudo-philosophical clap-trap on almost every page.
    Plus apparently Queen Amidala was the youngest queen ever elected on Naboo...so take that AOTC and Padme herself...I guess.

    Yoda lost to Sidious simply due to location. And to quote Obi-Wan 'it's over...I have the high ground'

    Sidious got to a high advantage point and let gravity do most of the work.

    Another day, another time, another location it could have went either way.
     
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  12. ThisIsTheWay

    ThisIsTheWay Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 24, 2019
    Obi-Wan killing Maul because Maul got cocky and Anakin finally besting Dooku doesn’t disprove the point though. The Sith
    had changed and the Jedi were operating on out dated intel.

    Palpatine did use the the environment to his advantage but it was hardly the be-all, end-all deciding factor on who won. Even after Yoda had neutralized Palpatine’s high ground advantage and tried to go at him again on even ground, he still lost.

    I’m not saying that it’s a fight Yoda is completely incapable of winning, just that it’s a match up where Palpatine walks away the victor more often than not. Especially when Yoda has to go in blind.
     
  13. SHAD0W-JEDI

    SHAD0W-JEDI Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 20, 2002
    He can't, right? Only the Chosen One can "bring balance to the Force"?
     
  14. The Maverick

    The Maverick Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 18, 2020
    but it does though, Obi-Wan still won. Anakin still won. Regardless of who is cocky, who tripped over a shoe-lace or who just plain sneezed at the wrong time.
    The Jedi were still using lightsabers in an era that were way passed their use by date.
    The novel's logic says that nobody could get into the ring with a trained boxer or wrestler and win.

    not really, they were still dark sized wizard's with a glowing sword and force powers the same as the Jedi.
    Sidious didn't use any new secret powers. He used the exact same ones Dooku used in the previous film and Yoda seemed to not be having any trouble there.

    because of the environment, and because Sidious had a longer arm that could grab a handrail (in a rather funny edit I might add after hanging on for dear life)

    Disagree.

    Sidious tried to flee, and didn't refute Yoda's why leave line and instead pointed towards Anakin not himself being able to whoop his green behind.

    put Sidious and Yoda on a flat field on say Naboo, the chances are 50/50 I say.
     
  15. DouglasQuaid_JediKnight

    DouglasQuaid_JediKnight Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    May 14, 2020
    Since when is something true simply because someone says it?

    Just look at the evidence. Maul easily took on two Jedi and only lost because he got carless. Dooku handled multiple Jedi twice. Yoda couldn't defeat Palpatine and Rey only beat him because other Jedi magnified her power.
     
  16. Lobey-One Kenobi

    Lobey-One Kenobi Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 30, 2009
    I do prefer the idea that the Dark Side is slightly stronger, but has horrible effects on the user's physical health, heart etc.

    With Mace, you could argue he only bested Sidious because his fighting style taps into the Dark Side. Or you could argue Sidious let him win for the charade of it all for Anakin's benefit - in which case it also proves the Dark Side is slightly stronger.

    I don't think the Dark Side is inherently stronger at all times, though. I think the balance of the Force is a reason the Dark Side happened to be stronger at that specific era of the timeline. There was more Jedi = more light around, so the Dark Side was therefore more potent in Sidious to balance it out. By ROTJ, Luke and Leia are the Light Side to Sidious and Vader, but Leia is untrained, so Luke was able to have a stronger potency in his Force to create balance.
     
  17. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    Yoda said it's ''quicker'' way to achieve power.
    “No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.”

    The evidence is Yoda defeated Ventress (a dark sider) easily, as well as he defeated Dooku (another more powerful dark sider).

    Yoda couldn't defeat Palpatine, but Palpatine couldn't kill him as well. And at the beginning, Sidious tried to run away from Yoda. They were evenly matched.

    Sidious also lost to Windu. He also lost to Vader when Vader turned to the light side, and he lost to Rey who was using the light side.

    Luke defeated Vader, Rey defeated Kylo. Grand Inquisitor lost to Kanan etc. There is no guarantee for victory just because they are using the dark side.
     
  18. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 27, 2014
    I felt it ended in a draw, with neither Yoda or Sidious winning. It only looks like Yoda lost because he fell so far in the Senate Chamber, and said “Failed I have.” But in actuality Yoda reversed Palpatine Ligjtning and cause a Force Shockwave that threw them both.
     
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  19. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    To return to the original question, first a quote from Yoda himself from ROTJ: "strong am I with the Force, but not that strong". Sure, he was a little older then, and on his deathbed. But it does show that no matter how powerful you are or were, there is never a guarantee that you can't be defeated or become weak.
    As for the duel with Sidious, I believe that in a lightsaber duel (not counting other Force abilities), size does indeed matter, regardless of what Yoda says later. Not only is he 1/3 of Sidious' height, his lightsaber is also shorter, giving him a clear disadvantage in attacking and blocking a longer blade. Being that short also makes him slower when running. Sure, he did move pretty fast when fighting Dooku. But neither is Dooku Sidious nor was the environment the same. They fought in a more or less enclosed space in AOTC, while the senate chamber was huge. So Sidious had a clear advantage there.
    I'm only talking about lightsaber duels, not Force lightning or Force pushes. It doesn't mean that Yoda was weaker per se, but Sidious had the advantage and the "high ground". Pretty much similar to the outcome of the Kenobi vs. Anakin fight. If Anakin hadn't jumped and they had continued to fight on even ground, Anakin quite possibly may have won.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  20. Cryoraptor

    Cryoraptor Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2020
    There are many reasons Yoda didn't win and retreated, in my opinion.

    For one, he was mentally distressed and strained from Order 66 and seeing the aftermath of Vader's massacre of the temple, so his ability to focus on the fight was hindered.
    Also due to what Sidious had done, he was trying to restrain his own feelings of anger, resentment and hatred towards Sidious, so he was at no more than half-capacity during the whole fight considering he was also fighting his own feelings during the battle, not only Sidious himself.

    Then you also have to consider that Yoda and Sidious are two very different beings with different talents:

    Although in raw Force power they are equals, they have different specialities. Yoda is more skilled with a blade and while Sidious by comparison of the average person and even average Jedi was still a highly skilled duelist, was more specialised Dark Side Force abilities, and these are his main strength. Because of this, and also because he is a generalist and doesn't specialise in a particular form (he has shown proficiency in both single and duel-blade combat), his duelling skills are somewhat surpassed by the top 5 Jedi, who all specialise in one or two forms and in blade combat in general.
    So by that logic, in the first half of the fight, Yoda has the advantage, and this is verifiable because Sidious first tries to flee battle entirely, and after letting loose a bit starts to get worried again, and several times he can be heard verbally struggling to compete with Yoda in blade-to-blade combat.
    Sidious is not a stupid man; he knows when he's not going to win a fight, and he knew that Yoda was the better duelist and was going to eventually win if the fight continued, so he then took the fight to a long-range Force ability competition, and this is where he has the advantage. As previously mentioned, his speciality is Force abilities, and he is massively skilled in this area. Yoda, in the same way that Sidious can still hold his own in blade-to-blade combat, is still highly skilled in the Force by all measures, but is somewhat surpassed by Sidious. Sidious forces Yoda to the low-ground where gravity does the work for him and Yoda can't conceivably win anymore.
    It should also be noted that Yoda made the mistake of entering a Force Lightning struggle with Palpatine. While they are evenly matched in the force, Yoda having a far lower body mass is always going to put him at a disadvantage and of course the explosion resulting from the struggle will knock Yoda much further than it will Sidious. It could be argued that this is where he lost the fight.

    So in summary, can Yoda beat Sidious? Absolutely, in fact it's likely in an even playing field: Put pre-66 Yoda and Sidious on a flat or almost-flat plain and Sidious is going to find it hard to switch to long-distance Force ability fighting, and he'll most likely lose. Yoda was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    The simplest answer is Yoda had to lose because the plot says so: If Yoda wins, the OT can't happen as it did. The same can be said for Mace vs Sidious: Mace had to lose because otherwise the OT happens without the Emperor, and Vader had to lose to Obi-Wan because otherwise he doesn't get crippled and there's no reason for why he's in a self-limiting suit and looks like a decaying corpse at the end of ROTJ. That's one of the limits of writing the sequel first, but also a beauty in that it allows for a tragic ending to a story where the heroes actually lose.
     
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  21. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Also, he had this one chance. Yoda had a limited amount of time to fight Sidious before Clone reinforcements came and overpowered him-as they did. And like Han said in TFA, the longer he was there the less luck he was going to have. So, time was against him. Plus, I'm sure Yoda understood that things had by this point come so far in Sidious' revealing of his ultimate plan-and had so much support-that even if he had killed Sidious, Yoda wouldn't have really been able to stop ALL the wheels that were now in motion. It's the saying "live to fight another day" in its purest form.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  22. Lord Sith Harloxzz

    Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2016
    Because imo Yoda knew that defeat Palpatine will not change anyrhing the Republic and the Jedi were gone if Palpatine was gone maybe Vader will raise to power or another Imperial
     
  23. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Sidious defeated Yoda simply because he cackled more. He who laughs has the last laugh. Notice Yoda laughs more in ESB.
     
  24. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    If someone is trying to figure out why George Lucas wrote something a certain way, bringing up a movie that was written by a different person over a decade later doesn't help the conversation though. This has little to do with "canon" as it does trying to figure out Lucas's thought process back in 2005.

    In the commentary for AOTC, during Shmi's funeral, Lucas says that the dark side is in fact stronger.
     
    christophero30 likes this.
  25. HolyKenobi93

    HolyKenobi93 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2020
    This has always been an issue for me. It needed to be more clearly established that Yoda couldn't win the fight and the two seemed pretty evenly matched right up to the end.