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PT Why Yoda doesn't beat Sidious

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Love SW2012, Jul 20, 2020.

  1. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Except ANH does not establish a very long time frame.
    They are about to jump to lightspeed, Han tells them to go back and strap in.
    They jump, a cut to the DS at Alderaan and it ends with Alderaan getting destroyed.
    We cut to the MF where Obi-Wan reacts to that. Then Han comes in and says that he lost "those imperial slugs". Clearly not a long time has passed. The scene goes on and then Han says that they are coming up on Alderaan. So at most, a few hours have passed. It could be less than an hour.
    So space travel in SW is really fast.

    In ESB, the MF "hide" from Needas ship and they think it jumped to hyperspace and Needa goes to "apologize" to Vader. Then we see Needa get killed and Piett says that if the MF jumped to hyperspace, they could be on the other side of the galaxy by now. So a few hours or a day at most is all it takes to travel across the galaxy.

    Vader and Palpatine knows this so they would not wait for many months.

    You forget that it was Vader who suggest to turn Luke, not Palpatine.
    And as shown above, travel in SW is really super fast, they go from one planet to another in hours, at most days.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  2. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2020
    irrelevant.
    an advisor gives advices. but once the king gives the "ok", the decision is absolute. if vader wanted to kill luke, he had to get the emperor's clear consent. luke was never in life threatening situation. the only time luke was truly in danger was in the throne room when it was really a 'become a sith or die' situation. before it was just empty threats.

    *"he will join us or die" in my opinion does not apply in TESB scene. because it takes more than yes and no to turn a jedi.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2021
  3. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Actually during the off-screen part of the Yoda vs. Sidious duel, Yoda disarms Sidious (similar to how amped Windu does when he was stronger than usual with his special amplification in that duel) but Sidious's Force abilities were too much for Yoda to handle (similar to how Windu struggled with Sidious's Force lightning more than he struggled in the duel), which is why Yoda loses to Sidious.

    It's both in the Episode 3 Script and the Novel;

    Episode 3 Script;
    203 INT. CORUSCANT-SENATE CHAMRER-MAIN ARENA-NIGHT

    ''YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

    The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

    YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

    YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.

    YODA leaps away from the pods. He uses the Force to hold one pod suspended in the air. The pod spins and YODA throws it back at PALPATINE, who leaps away at the last moment.

    YODA leaps after him, but PALPATINE quickly turns and aims the full force of his energy bolts at the tiny green Jedi, catching him in mid-air and throwing him back hard against the Podium. The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber. YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA.''


    Episode 3 Novel;
    ''That thought gave Yoda new energy, and he pressed his attack. He drove Palpatine back across the room, into the Chancellor’s podium. Palpatine hit the controls, and the podium began to rise, carrying him up into the Senate. But the podium moved slowly; Yoda had plenty of time to flip himself into the air and land beside the Emperor, to continue the fight.

    As the podium rose into the Senate arena, the fight intensified. Twice, Yoda came near to pushing Palpatine over the edge. They were high enough now that a fall could be fatal, even to a Sith Lord. Or a Jedi Master. The cramped space within the pod left little room for maneuvering.

    An end, I must make. Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows. Palpatine parried one, then another — and then the red lightsaber spun out of his hands and over the edge. Yoda raised his weapon for the final blow.

    Force lightning spat from the Emperor’s gray fingers, surrounding Yoda in a blue nimbus. But Yoda had faced Force lightning before. To deflect the first bolts, he had to stop his intended strike at the Emperor. Once his initial surprise was over, he reached out to the living Force. The lightning bent, arcing back toward the Emperor.

    “Destroy you, I will,” Yoda said grimly. “Just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.”

    The Sith Lord only redoubled his attack. Hurling Force lightning, the Emperor backed away, to the very edge of the platform. Following him was like walking against hurricane winds. Never had Yoda faced one so strong in the dark side. Before he came within reach, a particularly strong blast knocked Yoda out of the pod.

    As he plunged over the edge, Yoda realized that Palpatine was right about one thing. He, Yoda, had indeed been arrogant. It is a flaw more and more common among Jedi, he had told Obi-Wan once. Too sure of themselves, they are. And he had fallen into the same trap himself.

    He landed much sooner than he had expected, in an empty Senate pod floating below the Chancellor’s. As he climbed to his feet, the pod jerked, throwing him sideways and knocking him down once more. Palpatine was using the dark side to rip more pods free, crashing them into Yoda’s pod to keep him off-balance.

    This game, two can play. Yoda reached out with the Force and caught one of the hurtling pods. He threw it back at Palpatine, who barely dodged in time. Then Yoda leaped, using the flying pods to get back up to the Chancellor’s level.

    As he reached Palpatine’s pod, the Sith Lord hit him with another blast of blue lightning that knocked Yoda’s lightsaber out of his hand. Palpatine’s lips curled in anticipated triumph, and the dark side pulsed as he drew even more Force lightning to his bidding.

    Yoda caught it. The blue energy built into a glowing ball in his hand, ready to throw back at the Sith Lord the moment his attack stopped. But Palpatine didn’t stop; the Force lightning came in a steady crackle, building more and more, until neither of them could hold it any longer, and the blast knocked them both out of the pod.

    Palpatine was larger and heavier; he managed to catch hold of the edge of the pod as he fell. But Yoda was small and light. The explosion threw him high into the air, with nothing to grab to break his fall. Half-stunned, he began the long fall to the Senate floor
    .''

    Also the novel gives insight about the things that's been discussed here, @cantthinkofone @FightoftheForgotten
    ''Physics does matter when weighing more means you get thrown back less and don't end up falling from a great height.''
    ''yoda was referring to control over the force. not his physical mass when it needs to provide counter(dont know the english word) to something with larger mass.
    during that explosion, yoda was basically thrown away like a ragdoll while the bigger guy, was not.''


    As you guys said, Yoda gets thrown away by Sidious more due to the size difference during the Force lightning clash, but it's also clear that Yoda can't even defeat an unarmed Sidious after disarming him, which to me, it means that Yoda has no chance of winning even if he wins the lightsaber duel, he can't overcome Sidious's Force powers after disarming him, it was not possible for Yoda to defeat Sidious with a lightsaber, since even after disarming Sidious, he still loses his own lightsaber while fighting unarmed Sidious, and can't overpower Sidious during the Force lightning clash, and gets thrown away more than Sidious due to size difference.

    Also, Windu mentioned that Yoda has disadvantage in size,

    "But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad-or Yoda's mastery of Ataro-"

    Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataru is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

    Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.

    "That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?"


    --- Source: Episode 3 Novel

    Which is why Yoda specializes in Ataru style, which focuses on acrobatic movements and mobility, speed, which is why Yoda uses Ataru. To say that size matters not in everything would be wrong indeed, not only in a direct clash like that happened between Sidious and Yoda, it also gives disadvantage to Yoda in lightsaber combat, and it limits Yoda's fighting style with Ataru only.

    @Dr Silva

    So Sidious wins against Yoda because of his Force powers, not lightsaber.

    Sidious's forte and his best weapon is his Force powers, but still this doesn't mean Sidious isn't a top tier expert lightsaber duelist as well. Sidious trained Maul, he made Maul an extremely skilled duelist just like himself. He easily killed 3 Jedi masters while dueling with Windu at the same time (when Windu wasn't amped yet), and the canon top 5 red lightsaber users list states that Sidious is more skilled duelist than both Maul and Dooku, which is also a great feat.

    [​IMG]
    1-Vader, 2-Sidious, 3-Maul, 4-Dooku, 5-Ventress
    --- Source: Star Wars Absolutely Everything You Need to Know (2015)
     
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  4. Nehru_Amidala

    Nehru_Amidala Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2016
    I was going to say because of all the losses suffered by the Jedi, the sense of loss was overwhelming enough for Yoda to have trouble besting Old Baldy.
     
  5. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2020
    most of it happened in the movie in a different order this is the only paragraph that matters for our argument.

    these are the order of events in the script:
    1. yoda leaps after him when he was open (in previous paragraph).
    2. palpatine faking being open and lightning him mid-air
    3. yoda falls. the script mention the tiny jedi. because yoda IS tiny. which is an important factor.
    4. like in the movie: yoda get sudden lightning force which drops his lightsaber and then blocks it and then knocked off the podium.

    BUT that doesnt matter. the script allow us to understand things that need explanations but its not GL canon.
    the ONLY GL canon is his movie, theatrical cut.
    there are so many changes from script to final cut, a director has the power to change a movie completely. during filming and post-production.

    what the script help us understand is the fact that yoda is tiny and being small matters. the fact that palpatine's attack caused him to lose his lightsaber is obvious because it happened in the movie.
    the script also keeps on telling us yoda blocks his palpatine's attacks. palpatine got the advantage when yoda was open and made a mistake.

    palpatine is extremely powerful. yoda is stronger, but not unbeatable.


    EDIT:
    anything released post 2012 in my eyes is non-canon since its disney.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
  6. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Very relevant as the Emperor never says that Luke must be taken alive.
    The emperor brings up Luke as a threat, that he could destroy them and that Luke must not become a Jedi. Vader suggest turning Luke instead and the emperor says that would be a good idea and asks if it can be done. Vader says that Luke will join them or die.
    So Vader could certainly kill Luke if Luke proved unsuitable.
    Was Vader trying to kill Luke in their fight in ESB? Not as such, he was testing Luke. But he did things that could have killed Luke. Like when Luke is pulled out of the window, he could have been killed there.
    But if Luke had been killed by such a minor thing then Vader would conclude that he was weak or of little use.

    And none of this suggest that Vader or Palpatine would be willing to wait for months.
    Luke is a threat and a threat that needs dealing with. That is why the Emperor contacts Vader. So they would not want too much time to pass because Luke is a serious threat.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  7. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2020
    no one, not even the right-hand man (vader), may interpret the king (the emperor) to their own will.
    at the end of the day, the order was to turn luke. vader just added "he will join us or die" as if "yes, he is my son, but still wont matter because he will join us or die". but the order is still 'turn luke', .
    and as established in the prequals, turning a jedi to the dark side takes time and alot of work and manipulation. the emperor and vader never expected him to turn just by one speech. that is why the emperor wanted him to strike down his apprentice With great vengeance and furious anger and fully awaken his dark side and its powers.
    the emperor nulled his previous decision once he saw luke wont turn.


    regarding the waiting time.
    i dont know the time but another poster above reminded that in ANH travel was clearly fast.
    but still it wont change the fact that training a combat with a lightsaber, using the force in combat and how to fight a sith takes very long time.

    this is the great things with guns, it takes few minutes to teach that, fencing is a very complex skill. jedi vs sith is basically a fight between two swordsmen with precognition.
    im certain the emperor and vader, for their goal, knew they had to wait.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  8. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Again, Palpatine never ordered Vader to bring Luke in alive in ESB. Luke was a threat that needed to be dealt with.
    Killing him would do the job, as would turning him.
    Vader suggest that and Palpatine agrees, turn him or capture him if possible but if not, then killing him it fine.
    You keep acting like Palpatine gave an order to not kill Luke but he did not.

    Also the OT establishes that you can turn really fast, kill once in hate and boom, you turn.

    Also, Tarkin blew up Alderaan without asking Palpatine. Vader chased after the MF, letting the rest of the rebels flee. He did not ask Palpatine for an ok for that.
    Vader in RotJ says he must obey his master, but if his master does not give a specific order then Vader can act more as he sees fit.
    So Vader could have killed Luke in ESB. He did not want to, primarily he wanted to use Luke against the emperor and make himself no one. Plus it was his son, so there might have been a little of that.
    But he had no order not to kill Luke.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  9. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    "size matters not..only when it does"

    Both were hanging from senate pods,
    Sidious was bigger, heavier and had the reach to lift himself back onto a pod. Yoda did not have these advantages.
    So...Yoda lost because of simple physics.
    Another time, another place... Yoda may well have beaten him.

    Oh...and 'Yoda is a level 9.9999.888.1.1 and Palps is a level 100000.0000.000.0001"

    or something....*shrug*
     
  10. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2020
    im tired of arguing about that, its obviously back-and-forth thing.

    regarding Tarkin. Tarkin is higher rank than vader, and tarkin definitely has the ability to fight the rebels, any means necessary.
    actually vader isnt even technically part of the military. he is a the apprentice and right-hand man with certain powers, but he is not above the military, although he is capable of executing the will of the emperor in the field.
     
  11. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    ?

    was this to me?
     
  12. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    You said;
    [QUOTE]no one, not even the right-hand man (vader), may interpret the king (the emperor) to their own will.[/QUOTE]

    Arguing that not a single person can interpret what the emperor wants by themselves.
    Now that does somehow not apply to Tarkin. So you contradict your own argument.

    Also Tarkin himself says that the regional governors now have direct control over their territories after the removal of the senate. So things have become more de-centralized.

    Also, Vader is never given a direct order to bring Luke in alive in ESB. So nothing stopped him from killing Luke if he felt that was necessary.

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  13. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    I feel like that scene in TESB between Vader and Palpatine is more confusing now than it used to be.
     
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  14. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2020
    no
     
  15. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2020
    you over simplify or over complicated, whenever it fits you...

    emperor is the ruler of the empire, he has absolute federal power and supreme commander of the armed forces.
    now there are several branches
    military,
    the emperor
    the grand hoff
    rest... including admirals to stormtroopers.
    the military main job is to restrain all threats to the empire, the rebels are the main force behind it.


    statesmen
    the emperor
    regional governors
    anything underthem, never was stated as far as i know. historically, some empires allowed the locals to choose their own leader and give him some powers, but not full.


    king's court. in here lies the most trusted and inner circle.
    the emperor
    there are the ministry and such. no emperor rules alone.
    vader is in the role of apprentice and the guy who will execute the emperor's will when the emperor isnt around, he will communicate with him on certain matters and others.

    delegation delegation delegation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  16. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Palpatine told Vader that Luke was a threat to them. Palpatine said the young man must not become a Jedi. Now, I would interpret that to mean that Palpatine wants him dead. And apparently Vader does too, because Vader adds in, "He will join us or die" and Palpatine in no way, shape, or form corrects Vader.

    So, Palpatine wants Luke dead before he can become a Jedi and Vader suggests that they at least try and turn Luke to the dark side and if that fails... then kill him.

    It seems like you just don't understand the scene.
     
  17. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2020
    and who is the person to say if it can or cannot be done ? i believe palpatine is, since he is the only one we know who did it, multiple times. (in GL canon)
     
  18. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Palpatine asks Vader if Vader thinks it is possible for Luke to be turned to the dark side. But I'm failing to understand what that has to do with what I said.

    Let's break this down.

    VADER
    What is thy bidding, my master?

    EMPEROR
    There is a great disturbance in
    the Force.

    VADER
    I have felt it.

    EMPEROR
    We have a new enemy - Luke
    Skywalker.

    VADER
    Yes, my master.

    EMPEROR
    He could destroy us.

    This is Palpatine stating that he sees Luke as enough of a potential threat that he could bring an end to both Palpatine and Vader.

    VADER
    He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no
    longer help him.

    This is Vader jumping at the chance to aide his son in some small way. Vader is telling the Emperor that he does not see Luke as a threat; or at least not as big of one as the Emperor is making Luke out to be.

    EMPEROR
    The Force is strong with him. The
    son of Skywalker must not become a
    Jedi.

    "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi." Now, this could be interpreted in different ways if the scene ended here. But the scene doesn't end here. We still get...

    VADER
    If he could be turned, he would
    become a powerful ally.

    EMPEROR
    Yes. Yes. He would be a great
    asset. Can it be done?

    VADER
    He will join us or die, my
    master.

    "He will join us or die, Master." Obviously Vader's interpretation of the line "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi." meant that Palpatine wanted Luke killed. And since Palpatine does nothing to correct Vader's assumption, that leads me to believe that Vader assumed correctly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  19. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2020
    we all know the scene. and as you yourself mentioned, the last verse from each person, specifically the emperor, was "yes. yes, he would be a great asset. can ti be done?" he also pronounced it in a devilish way of wanting and willing it.

    vader's mission becomes to deliver that request. he adds that if it wont happen, luke will die. whether its by vader, the emperor or a storm trooper was never mentioned.
    "he will join us or die" is an acceptance, confirmation and promise that vader has no link to the skywalker name anymore.
    but the order of the emperor remain. we will do what must be done to replace vader- a wounded animal.
     
  20. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Palpatine is presented as being opportunistic, but he doesn't correct Vader on wanting Luke to be killed. So obviously Palpatine is okay with Luke being destroyed if the young man proves to be too weak to defend himself against Vader. I mean, why would Palpatine want Luke if Luke is weaker than the "wounded animal" that Palpatine already has?

    Here's the thing, if Vader is wrong about Palpatine wanting Luke dead... and Vader clearly states his intention is to kill Luke if the young man proves to be unfit for the dark side... and Palpatine actually wants Luke left alive... then why doesn't the Emperor correct Vader?

    Your interpretation of the scene doesn't make any sense.
     
  21. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2020
    i forgot to add, which is why my point isnt complete:

    "Can it be done?"
    it does not mean "can luke be turned ?", because with the right temptations, anyone can turn. dagobah showed us luke is very clearly highly vulnerable to turn.
    the line actually means "can you turn luke ?" which vader basically says "im not his father. anakin skywalker is long gone. my loyalty is with you. i am now your apprentice, your servant and a member of the empire"
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  22. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 9

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    May 18, 2017
    I think the Emperor is starting to sense/suspect a bond between the two and wants one out of the picture.
     
  23. BlueYogurt

    BlueYogurt Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 26, 2021
    Yoda can lift a multi-ton spaceship with his mind, but levitating his own body (all 15 lbs of it) two feet is beyond him? Does this make sense to anyone?
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
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  24. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    the film had to end...

    it was already coming up to the 2 hr 15-20 minute mark Lucas likes to uphold to. ;)
     
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  25. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2019
    I'm not totally understanding what the debate here is about, but I'll share my interpretation of that dialogue again for this thread.
    "Hey guess what, Luke is your son! Now go kill him."
    It's unmistakable that Sidious wanted Luke dead when he identified him as their new enemy. In ROTS when he says that every single Jedi is now an enemy of the republic, that meant wipe out the Jedi.
    "Are you sure? "
    "Of course."
    "But but he's just a boy, I don't think he's much of a threat..."
    In saying "He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him," Vader is protesting, claiming that Luke is too weak to be their enemy. It's quite a pathetic argument. Like, really? He blew up the death star and he's causing a disturbance in the force that Sidious can feel across the galaxy and you're saying he's JUST a boy? He's totally not a threat, nice try Vader.
    "Kill him."
    As expected, Sidious doesn't buy that. "The Force is strong with him, " i.e. he has great potential. "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi," i.e. kill him before he finishes training.
    "Can we convert him to our side instead?"
    Vader then suggests the alternative to killing him, which is converting him.
    "Hmmm……"
    Sidious's tone of voice when he says "Yes. He would be a great asset" sounds like he is considering that for the first time (though I suspect he could be acting).
    Sidious likes the idea, but is still doubtful about whether it could work. So he questions Vader, "Can it be done?"
    "If he won't convert then I'll kill him I promise!"
    Vader gives Sidious the assurance he wants: If the alternative I suggested doesn't work, I will kill him as you wanted.

    So basically Vader is desperately trying to save his son from an execution order, and Sidious is just being a bully.
     
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