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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Why Yoda doesn't beat Sidious

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Love SW2012, Jul 20, 2020.

  1. BlueYogurt

    BlueYogurt Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 26, 2021
    Well, is ANY Star Wars discussion important? The issue was not Yoda getting back up to Palpatine's level, but why someone who can levitate a spaceship, fell in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2021
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  2. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2019
    Oh ok. Thanks :p
     
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  3. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    I think the reasons why 'Force flying' isn't a widespread thing comes down to a few factors. The first and most important seems to be that portraying it in live-action would necessitate a lot of complex wire work or compositing, which was almost certainly beyond the capabilities of the OT's effects, which keeps most of its compositing to matte painting backgrounds rather than direct one-on-one character interactions. Even in the PT, digital stunt doubles were pretty new, and still aren't too widely used (one only needs to look at the CG humans in the first two Harry Potters to see how glaringly weird it could have ended up). So from a practical point of view, portraying a flying or hovering human would be hard to do on film, and might look a bit goofy too.

    In animation there's a layer of suspension of disbelief, as well as all the elements being cut from the same cloth. A flying Dooku is no harder to animate than a standing one, for instance, and both look equally enmeshed in the world. But still, it's almost never used in wider Star Wars media. Air dashes seem common enough, but straight up flight is avoided.

    I think this comes down to the idea of power-scaling. Giving all Jedi and Sith the ability to fly would probably remove a lot of the cool swordfight aspects of SW duels. The environments would be less relevant, no fancy footwork or jumps. It would render the Force at a heightened level, where I think the creators usually want to keep it a tad more grounded. Enhanced humans, not super humans. For that reason, Force users never use the force on themselves, or, more tension-killing, their opponents lightsabers. Cause it's cooler to have a duel than end it every time by force pressing their enemy's saber switch off.
     
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  4. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014

    yes Darsk and your In Universe reasons are...


    :p
     
  5. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Force don't work on Jedi bodies cause they have to outstretch their hands and gesture at what they're lifting, so if they tried to do it to themselves they'd get their arms all twisted. Simple :p

    That and just the fact we barely ever see it means it probably just isn't a thing force users can do. They do all those really big jumps, would be kinda pointless if they could all fly too ;)
     
  6. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    [​IMG]

    :p

    [​IMG]
     
  7. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

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    Dec 7, 2014
    Ok yeah, the TROS one is pretty definitive, I was thinking the old Saga only ;) Still, hovering isn't out and out flying, we don't see super-Rey flying around.

    What's the ESB gif showing?
     
  8. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    Vader holding on for dear life, throwing all sorts of stuff at Luke with the force

    without [Snape] foolish arm waving and silly incantations.... [Snape]

    :p
     
  9. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Hey, even Vader does a bit of arm gesturing when he first starts throwing objects:


    Chalk it up to a one-off occurrence ;) By the time the wind is blowing Luke out the window Vader has stopped force throwing and grabs onto the wall.

    I think the simplest answer for why Yoda didn't take off and fly up to Palpatine is that he can't :p
     
  10. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    or because he's like Peter Parker

    [​IMG]

    :p

    in all seriousness though...I, myself, was talking more about levitating more than flying, or even force jumping back up, the latter we KNOW Yoda can do.

    Obi-Wan jumps back up roughly the same height in his fight with Maul and he's just a padawan.

    We can make excuses all day if we want to. Sometimes we just gotta say is...

    'Yoda goofed' IU

    'George goofed' OOU

    ;)
     
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  11. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    The reason Yoda doesn’t want any part of Sidious after he fell is because even with his “now I’m pissed let’s get real” look said by cantthinkofone …..Yoda still couldn’t beat him giving it his all.

    There’s a reason Yoda went into hiding and waited for Luke to do WHAT HE CANNOT.

    There’s a reason why he never sought that REMATCH that Yoda fans are perplexed that Yoda didn’t sought out.

    Plain and simple, Yoda knows he can’t beat the Dark Lord and why he went into hiding INSTEAD of AT LEAST keeping in touch with Organa and other Anti Empire forces to secretly organize a counter attack.
     
  12. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2020
    there was a claim that yoda could stop himself in air or something after yoda-palpatine lightning repulsion thing. the claim mentioned that palpatine did it or something so palpatine is stronger.

    which is still ridiculous because i showed a video that clearly showed palpatine is weaker and regarding the levitation, we have yet to ever seen a GL canon of that. we saw slowly going down. we never saw rising up and staying up OF SELF. and i repeat and i cant see how you cant see it, doing it to others (temporarily) is not the same as doing it to yourself.

    maybe he couldnt at that area, because he is too small. every lightning attack would make him fly longer than normal human would. and no force power can change that.

    he did not know of anakin's children at the time.
    obi-wan discovered first when he talked to padme.

    its possible he just decided to wait for when he gets the equal playing field..

    *or he just goofed as someone said above.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2021
  13. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    [​IMG]

    Yoda: hmm, yes cannot beat him, he kicked my green butt red in submission he did, hmm yes, totally kicked my ass he did

    (not)

    no you didn't, because no such video exists.

    *rubs temples*

    alright fine, since every SW fan alive seems to have their own head canon going on and dismissing certain parts of the saga as non-canon and what not, let's for the sake of argument just focus on the force jump



    1:27 in the vid, oh..look....for jump.

    ][​IMG]

    oohh look here, Newb Luke force jumping at zoom speed before being gassed.
     
  14. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004

    Yoda had 18 years since Luke arrived. Yet NEVER once sought for that rematch.

    “The Emperor knew as I did. If Anakin were to have any offsprings, THEY WOULD BE A THREAT TO HIM.”

    WHAT???!!! Yoda is NOT around anymore or something???!!!! Silly Obi-Wan …..Yoda is THE threat to him said by cantthinkofone and all the Yoda fans.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2021
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  15. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2020
    the video shows us palpatine using the full might of the dark side on yoda, and yet he was pushed back. i repeat, he wasnt just deflected, yoda pushed him with his own lightning.

    yoda is clearly stronger with the force and they seem equal to me with the lightsaber, as both couldnt get the advantage with it, they just continue to attack eachother on the pod.
    "but yoda fell and palpatine didnt", palpatine is heavier with longer arms so he flew back less and could reach something to hold on while yoda couldnt. yoda is just physically too small. the distance they flew back has nothing to do with their strength in the force, its 100% physics.


    regarding the force jump, i dont understand why you mention it.

    yoda after battle with palpatine:
    "into exile i must go, failed i have"
    LATER, with conversation with obi-wan, he found out anakin had children and he knew they have the potential to beat him if the jedi get to them first.
    he might have meant "ill go back when the time comes" or "im a chicken" but it doesnt change the fact that during the combat the only time palpatine had him is when he used lightning on yoda lightsaber right after he jumped to his pod in a surprise attack (but palpatine did not expect yoda to fight it back with his hands).
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2021
  16. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    you must have edited your post, since I quoted you as saying Palpatine was stronger.
     
  17. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2019
    At least it's not as ridiculous as "Mace defeated Sidious but Anakin arrived just in time to save him." That one just makes me want to go facepalm.

    Yoda was a formidable opponent that Sidious had to use all his strength to defeat.
    Mace was Sidious's chesspiece.
     
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  18. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2019
    Ok maybe I'll actually contribute something to the topic. I haven't watched the scene in a while, but re-watching now I actually noticed more things than before, so I'll share my new interpretation.

    Here's a slow motion gif of the final blast itself:
    [​IMG]
    That blast of light formed a flat wall (not a dome towards one side) between the two of the them, and both sides get blasted away from each other at the same time. To me that indicates that the blast itself exerted equal force on both sides.

    Now look at what happened immediately after the blast, during the beginning portion of their falls (same gif above). Yoda fell backwards into the air, i.e. nothing to slow down his fall immediately. Sidious fell onto the back of the pod first, i.e. his fall was slowed down so that it would later be easier for him to grasp onto a rail during his fall.

    So why is the same blast giving different results for them? Well the answer lies in how they stood before the blast started:
    [​IMG]
    Sidious was in the middle of the pod, while Yoda was on the edge of it. So Sidious's physical location before the blast gave him an advantage over Yoda during the fall.

    Now the question is, how did Sidious get into this more advantageous position? Let's see what happened before that: It was the long range combat, i.e. the pod hurling. Sidious was on the offensive for that. Yoda was losing the long range combat, so he had to jump onto Sidious's pod to switch to close range combat. Sidious didn't need to jump onto Yoda pod.

    So overall: Sidious stronger in long range combat, two sides tied in close range combat, with a cumulative result in Yoda having a harsher fall than Sidious. The outcome is clear; Yoda knew he had no chances of defeating Sidious.
     
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  19. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014

    I think we are all arguing the same thing at this point.
     
  20. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    Ummm no. They BOTH exploded. They BOTH got pushed back. Even with all of that, Yoda still couldn’t beat him. If your going to cherry pick their highlights THEN I can easily choose the part where Sidious KNOCKED Yoda OUT cold in the beginning.

    He could have easily ended a SLEEPING Yoda in the beginning BUT instead underestimated Yoda by waiting for Yoda to WAKE UP so he can MONOLOGUE his accomplishments to Yoda.

    Again, it was Yoda who left the fight (Like Dooku did with their fight on Episode 2); it was Yoda who decided to go into hiding instead of secretly organize a resistance. I mean I can give you that none of them can beat each other BUT to say Yoda is stronger is just being an irrational fanboy.

    If he believes he can defeat Sidious….he would find a way to get back for that rematch….ummm the whole galaxy is at stake here.

    Yoda: “Believed more than me, on my abilities, my fans do.”
     
  21. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    LOL exactly!!!

    Mace couldn’t even stop Palpatine when he had a 4-1 advantage. But then he powered up supposedly which showed no indication to the audience except for the Mace fans so they can explain what happened.

    How about watching the whole movie instead of just fast forwarding to the fight.

    - Palpatine tells lies

    - Anakin rejects his lies and turns him over

    Hmmmmm what should come next??? How can Palpatine finally turn Anakin to believe his lies???? Hmmmm

    - Anakin walks in on an aggressive Jedi and a defenseless Palpatine.

    - Palpatine: Anakin I TOLD YOU it would come to this!! I WAS RIGHT, The Jedi are taking over!!!

    LOL how can you not write it any clearer???

    Yup General Greivous also powered up to kidnap Palpatine. That’s what people would think IF THEY JUST WATCH THAT SCENE AND NOT THE WHOLE SW SAGA.
     
  22. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2020
    according to the novelization (if you take it as canon) mace windu won fair and square, because of his superior lightsaber abilities.
    he is NOT stronger with the force than yoda or palpatine, but he is a better duelist. thats a well known fact.
    mace windu was strong enough to strike down palpatine right there and then, if anakin wasnt there.

    and since you do believe the novelization is canon, than you cant argue with that... it is written in stone


    regarding palpatine lies- which one ?
    he said many things in order to convince anakin to help him, the only thing that worked was "i have the power to save the one you love, you must choose" which then anakin moved his head from palpatine to windu.


    their expressions, tones and even slight movements of all parties are very important to understand whats going, not just lines.
    that is just one of the reasons why the script isnt enough. GL made sure all actors did exactly as they should have to tell his story.




    *also, what with that "power up" stuff ? this isnt dragon ball z.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2021
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Can you quote the specific scene? If it's from Mace's POV, then it doesn't necessarily have to be objectively accurate - Mace may not have been able to tell that Palpatine was throwing the fight.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2021
  24. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2020
    eh?
    have you ever heard of physics ? usually, an explosion tends to affects all parties around it. but their mass and other factors may affect the distance.

    if you have a 10 kg rock and 2 kg rock, both same shape, both on different sides but on the same radius of the center of an explosion, which would fly back further ?
    now lets replace the 10kg with palpatine and 2kg with yoda. what will happen.
    now lets add to that their shape is not the same, yoda has shorter hands and legs.

    im sorry to tell you this, but there is literally no way yoda would not go down in this situation. and if palpatine used another lightning, yoda would fall again. there is no way for yoda to win in the senate.
     
  25. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2020
    so now you doubt the novelization for your argument ?
    thats ridiculous.