ST Will fan backlash affect development of IX?

Easy Riders: Reunion Edition

Featuring the returns of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Mace Windu, Han Solo, AnakincumVader, Luke Skywalker and a special appearance by Admiral Ackbar.

 

Star Wars has some of the dumbest fans I have ever seen, with story ideas rooted in fan service and deep dive lore extension. A lot of hardcore fans don’t want stories, they want cinematic encyclopedias that check boxes off a wishlist. For instance, some of the takes I’ve seen on The Last Jedi were shockingly bad, largely based on selective ignorance of what happened or why, or fueled by anger that certain things didn’t play out in a more predictable way that appeased certain popular fan theories or headcanons. So I’d prefer they remain ignored.

On top of that, Star Wars doesn’t belong to people who were there in ‘77, or who bought every EU book so they could become walking, talking versions of Wookieepedia. Star Wars belongs to kids who see themselves as the boy in The Last Jedi’s final scene, inspired by the stories of Luke Skywalker they’ve inherited, who see themselves reflected to varying degrees in Rey, Finn, Poe, Rose, and Kylo.

 

Ever been to a fast and furious fanclub?

 

I’m not a fan of Fast and Furious, not my cup of tea but I don’t look down on it, but I don’t think they spend years at a time speculating about whether the lead of the seventh movie is the granddaughter of the mentor from the fourth movie, or the great-granddaughter of the villain from the sixth movie, or the daughter of the heroes from a video game, or or or...

 

Oh yes they do. And yes, calling fans dumb is not nice. Neither for F&F nor on SW

 

I agree. A lot of problems can be solved with consulting with fans or people who can think through stuff.

Many of TLJ's problems stem from not developing or thinking through plot or creating characters.
The galaxy has been taken over by the FO the crawl tells us but we don't see it, or feel any consequence of it. The New Republic is forgotten and not mentioned. If the FO are invading why isn't this the plot?


I partially agree though with the idea that fans are blinded by their love for certain things and that in their hands it would become inaccessible to the average joe.
But there's a reason why people would rather see Ackbar on screen than the new characters and that's because the new characters are bland, generic cardboard cut outs which the film does nothing to rectify save for Poe- Finn and Rey don't have a character arc or change.


It's not even fans that could help, just get competent writers!

 

Maybe to some extent. As others have stated, this isn't unheard of with Star Wars. But they're not just going to compromise their vision due to fanboy entitlement and outrage.

 

If people making movies seriously consulted fans about creative decisions, then Heath Ledger would never have been the Joker, Robert Downey Jr. would probably never have been Iron Man, and Hugh Jackman certainly would not have played Wolverine.

 

Ugh, I hope not. I prefer TFA to TLJ (though both are good films to me), and I think TFA was influenced by backlash against the prequels, and TLJ was influenced by backlash to TFA. I think VII was darker than VIII, and while VIII had crucial points that were executed superbly, it wasn't as dark as I'd hoped and the humor felt too excessive at times.

I predict that IX will be better than TLJ, since Abrams will be back at the helm, and we may be seeing into darker, more serious territory.

 

Just on topic:

 

Fan reactions may play a role. What will play more of a role is going to be financial repercussions of the fan backlash. Watch the second weekend drop in ticket sales. If there is a significantly greater second weekend drop then there was in The Force Awakens or Rogue One, then Disney and Lucasfilm will believe that they have no choice but to change course. It's the bottom line that matters, after all.

 

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/disney-reacts-star-wars-last-jedi-fan-response-1201908604/

1. Obviously for a lot of SW fans it is not. No matter if there are trolls on rotten tomatoes or not the problem is huge and on the table. Not judging about if you like the movie or not there is an issue.

2. This statement is a full-fail. Which mysteries? The boy at the end, people floating through space unprotected? There were at least 20 times more mysteries to talk about in R1 although it had a closed story from the beginning to the end.

IMO Disney did not yet realize which kind of a problem they have or if there actually is a problem existing in the end. We will see where TLJ ends up with the box office result followed by the Han Solo movie. A lot of people like the movie and a lot of people obviously not. To repeat praising the movie without any self critic response might cause, that a problem that is loud at the moment but not yet really existing in having a real problem soon.

Beside the fact where the story goes (you can like it or not - in the end it is a matter of taste) you cannot say it is the best SW ever when there are so many logic fails (Leia space/Blue saber with Luke holo), directing errors (people are buddies and actually don't even know each other), etc.

 

*anticlimactic
*saga’s

Fans are smarter. Which fans? Those of us who loved VIII or those of us who didn’t?

 

Given most of the fan complaints revolve around completely missing character arcs, theme and what is actually a very tightly plotted script in reference to both of those elements, no, we should not be asking the fans. And RJ is more than a competent writer. I'm a competent writer. On first watch I missed so much of what RJ is doing. Scenes, lines and beats that feel throw-away are all in service of arcs, theme and set up and pay-off, even when it's not immediately obvious. What you're talking about is minutiae, lore, and fan needs - none of which is particularly pertinent to good storytelling. So every comment I see like the above undermines just how far away "the fans" should be from the creation of these stories.

And yes, Lettow is right - there are a stack of fans who love the film as well - not to mention the fact that all the creators to date are fans. Even if the fans were smarter - and they're really, really not - which fans should we listen to. These boards should be an indicator - if you put a group of us together and asked us to agree on a way forward for episode 9 that would please everyone, it would descend in chaos within minutes. There is no pleasing all the fans.

We had a backlash to TFA. A backlash to R1. A backlash to the PT. A backlash to the SEs. A backlash to ROTJ. A backlash to ESB. Even ANH had a backlash - it's just that by definition that came from non fans because they never became fans. But nothing to do with SW has ever been universally loved. There has always been some convinced it's the worst thing since sliced bread.

TLJ is no different, I just suspect that in classic 2017 style, spamming of the RT score has led to the idea that somehow this one has an even worse backlash. I'm not so sure that's the case. The hatred against TFA was just as intense from certain quarters. The only difference I can see this time is that some of those who loved TFA and not down with TLJ, but as a counter to that, I'm seeing plenty who weren't down with TFA who love TLJ. So go figure.

 

100% true, doesn't need to be fans, but someone who gets and understands a character established in movies before and not writing twist driven only.

 

Satipo
But what are Finn and Rey's arc? What do they learn? I understand what I think they were doing but Rey doesn't have a character. Meeting Luke (a childhood hero she grew up with) and being dismissed by him should be a bigger deal than it is here. In the last film she proclaimed "Luke Skywalker!" but when faced with him all she ends up saying is please we need your help, the resistance needs you but no personal connection at all. No personal plea or reference to growing up with the stories about him. And they attempt an disappointment in Rey and a contentment at the end when he dies with her understanding what he did for them. It just strikes me as off because Rey acts so artificially. When confronting Luke about wanting to turn Ben to the light side why doesn't she mention Vader?

I disagree with you that the script is tight. There are just too many plot conveniences and inconsistencies with the TFA.

It really shows. They do a really bad job of connecting the films together and seemingly forget Poe even blew up Starkiller Base 24 hours. Again Poe's arc is he is too overconfident and too daring and that's probably because of the success of the SKB mission- so why wasn't it mentioned? Phasma turns up and again Finn says nothing about believing her dead.


No one wants to hate the film but it does an incredibly poor job of making us care about any of the characters or setting.

It's telling that people still don't understand the Resistance or FO. The films barely show the New Republic and so the audience just does not care. Why does the Resistance want to reinstall another government when the last one failed? What will make it different to the last time?

I somewhat agree that fans are too into the lore to make an accessible film but the film doesn't succeed in even telling a story with memorable characters. Chewbacca, R2 and 3PO have one scene to shine each and that's it. Why?

 

Nailed it on the head!

 

This is beautifully said, to the point and accurate on all fronts.

 

gotta love the condescension from folks who loved the movie. I dunno why its a problem that so many of us hated it. Love your movie, watch it all you want.

 

Finn needs to learn that a higher cause can be worth fighting for and he also needs to learn that tearing down something you hate is not as worthwhile as saving what you love - in the abstract. RJ and Rose are the angel and devil on his shoulders. He also needs to learn what Poe does - that sacrifice can be brave but also pointless.

Rey needs to stop looking for others to save the day (specifically the Skywalker men) and that she holds the power the galaxy needs. She also needs to learn to confront and accept her greatest fear - that she really is just nobody and that she was not wanted by anyone. There was never belonging. She needs to admit what she has buried deep down. And she needs to learn that not everyone can be saved.

Her arc is played brilliantly with Kylo’s and Luke’s with each of them informing the other’s. And all of them - Finn and Poe as well- must learn how to accept their failure and don’t let it define or blind them to what can still be achieved.

This is what I mean it’s all rippling across and reflecting across each story line in different ways, that to me align perfectly with the legend of Luke Skywalker during the finale. You talk about threepio or Artoo or Chewie, I say you’re missing the wood for the trees. They each have their moments but this is not about them as much as it is serving the main themes and characters. Same with the FO and Resistance stuff? Why do you need this explained. What matters is the movie and you know what you need for the characters. Everything else is just a Wikipedia entry. Now you may feel you don’t care about the characters. I’ve never been more invested in any of them. Including Luke and including Leia. I think for the first time Luke is evelated into a truly great character. Not just a great SW hero. A fully developed memorable, mythic character in a way that says something meaningful about failure, fear and hope and the power of legend.


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I agree - like what you like. The idea “the fans” know better is still a terrible one.


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We can see this in both sides of the spectrum really. There are people who simply cannot see a different opinion, and then goes making personal offenses or nonsense assumptions.

 

Moreover, the whole Canto Bight/Failed Supremacy Plan sequence is there to establish and more fully develop Rose as a character and her relationship with Finn. We learn a lot about her from these scenes. Rather than seeking revenge for the death of her sister or "making the town hurt" like Finn put it, Rose is way more focused on freeing abused animals, giving hope to others and dedicating herself to the cause of saving the Resistance (i.e. immediately giving DJ her necklace).

The plan doesn't work, sure, but it sells us on Rose as a character and establishes why we should care about her and why we should care about her romance with Finn.

 

Weird. The only mystery I have is how RJ made a 2.5 hour film that still feels like a lot was cut out, scenes ending hastily, and being pasted together haphazardly. You made the longest St Wars film yet and still made it feel choppy, not flowing, and rushed? That is a mystery!

Everything else was painfully laid out and explained to the audience so that there was no mystery whatsoever. What was the point of Canto Bight? Anti-capitalism, anti-war rhetoric, and anti-horse racing/animal abuse! Why did Luke die? He knew that the Jedi would live on and his purpose as a teacher is fulfilled! Why is Rey a nobody? So that everyone can be special!

 

Agree Chained Prometheus the entire Canto Bight sequence was about Rose and her character development. Without it I think Rose as a character would’ve not been finished. We see her actions define her journey, a journey which started with tradegy and doubt in a hero to loving that hero and a purpose of her own