ST Will fan backlash affect development of IX?

Of course they don't have to do anything, doesn't mean it's a good excuse to make movie full of setups that got people excited and then promptly either ignore or turn them into nothing next movie. People are mad because TFA is now full of unfulfilled promises.

 

No, ANH wasn't that deep and complex but it was the first, so it's always going to be special because of that.

True, some people will howl regardless. I just think the recent prasing (by many) of the prequels in response to being disappointed by this ST makes a point. But I don't wanna get in trouble for mentioning the PT so I better be careful here.

 

Great, great post. No one is going to change the story for someone's personal subjective grievances because they are personal and subjective meaning they do not work for people with different personal subjective grievances. There's no objective measurement and therefore no way to please one group without alienating/angering another. Moreover, GA is not prone to them as reasons for connecting with the movies or not. They are easier to please because their investment is on much more general level, whether they are entertained or bored. And that's much easier to measure.

 

That concept of a false promise is still very much there in pockets of fandom, that JJ will somehow erase TLJ and "fix" everything.

Only JJ set things in motion, really loved what RJ created and has gone on the record saying so, and is going to continue the vision he mapped out with TFA. If you wanted a "fix" then you should've been cheering for Trevorrow to stay because would be a third cook in the pot. JJ and RJ are working in concert and created a seamless story thus far. I personally love how the saga is being handed back to JJ to finish it. Love the continuity of creators.

 

I'd interject some of the reasons why I and people I know don't like TLJ:
1. The story is underwhelming.
2. Luke was made out to be a loser and a bum.
3. Rey is perfect and makes no mistakes and faces no setbacks. (has nothing to do with her gender; I would say the same if she were male)
4. Finn/Rose nonsense
5. Lack of character development: Finn, Snoke, Phasma, Holdo, DJ

The GA doesn't love Rey; they love Luke too. They don't care about Rey. She is just there.

 

see, we agree on things. We agree that some people are complaining about Rey and Luke. I threw Rose into the "too many girls" category.

Edited to add: I should point out that I personally don't have these grievances. I'm just citing what I have gleaned from people here and elsewhere. I personally thought the film was imperfect, dragged at times. But I really liked the avant garde aspects of it and the characterizations (though Poe does nothing for me one way or another.)

 

I think the use of Female characters may not have helped much

• Phasma was wasted because they clearly didn't know what to do with her
• Rey is a mixture of Luke skywalker in episode 4 and 5 but with an obvious self awareness and extra care that she is the Female lead.
• Holdo gets criticism because many feel her role was abit contrived by not just telling Poe the plan and in so creating unnecessary events
• Rose gets criticism for reasons i ain't to sure about.

 

I'm still not seeing these unexpected promises that TFA failed to deliver on.

I am seeing people that convinced themselves "x" theory was guaranteed. Not the same thing. And while it doesn't apply to everyone, or all criticism of the film, it is one of the key wells of some of the fan anger, no doubt. You could see it building for years. None of it is the least bit surprising. The only thing I've been taken aback with is the hatred from some quarters to the Luke arc. I think we did get a great Luke arc in the end, but the way some people have interpreted it has really surprised me.

 

They never knew what to do with Phasma? She was never meant to be a major player. She is a tertiary character that happens to make a killer looking toy to market. That's all. The character garnered more hype than substance because she was played the amazing Gwen Christie.

As for Rey, we could really dive into gender politics.

Holdo, I think some of the criticisms were valid. But she was kind of the macguffin to give the Resistance a fighting chance.

And as for Rose, let's just say she didn't meet the expectations for a lot of men who are accustomed to the asian sexual fantasy that is all over the internet. She wasn't tall, lithe and sexually seductive like a Sailor Moon fantasy. So a lot of her unwarranted hate because of racially tinged sexist stereotypes. Great article about it at Salon.

 

TFA awakens did feel like it was setting up ideas to be explored down the line... its just maybe Rian wasn't interested in exploring any of them and so alot of it was just resolved fairly quick just to get it out of the way.

The whole Rey parentage thing or mysterious back story was teased a fair bit in TFA so when TLJ just quickly shrugged it off in a way that they probably felt was clever for her just to have her be a no body all along it was obviously gonna rub some the wrong way.

 

I don't think TLJ did just shrug it off. Rey being a Nobody was always a possible answer. So I think we're back to "if she's not Related, that sucks", which is fine I guess - everyone is entitled to their preferences - but as others have been saying, I'm not sure what that has to do with objective criticism of the film - they would also have known that some would not like that option, but still chose it anyway because they felt it was the story they wanted to tell - and a lot of reviewvers and fans also repsonded positively to that choice.

I don't think everyone had to agree with the choice - but I do think some fans refused to even acknowledge that TFA could exist with such an outcome, when plenty of us were arguing all along that it could. And I don't think it is any coincidence that by and large, those most strident in their belief that "x" must happen or else are very often now the angriest voices. It feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Which again, is fine, but I disagree that we were "promised any one outcome". If posters here could point out that Random was possible, it was hardly unforeseeable. But some people did not want to hear that. I just can't get on board with the "THEY LIED TO US" narrative some have been pushing since. It was so predictable this would happen. And very little to do with the actual quality of storytelling.

If you watch TFA back, there is nothing in the film that says "Rey can only be Related", quite a few places where Rey being Related but no one saying anything would be pretty odd, and one place where Maz separates out Rey's family from the Skywalkers and Solos. Watching it knowing the outcome, there's nothing in that arc that doesn't hold up, and that's because they knew who she was - Nobody - before TFA had even finished filming.

 

By "unfulfilled promises," you mean "answers I don't like," right?

 

No.

Luke’s lightsaber - how did it get to Maz? Why did it call to Rey? Why did she have visions?

Who is this mysterious powerful dark lord who appeared seven movies into a story and witnessed the events of previous movies?

Mystery of Rey’s origin. What girl? Who’s the girl? Vision of her being left on Jakku, etc. now I don’t mind Rey Random, just dislike the fact that they made it a mystery for no reason.

The Knights of Ren?

And so on.

 

Marketed saying “Age-old Mysteries of the Force will be unlocked”. Hmmm. We got shots of the Jedi books and a mosaic about the prime Jedi?? A lot expected more if TPTB specifically told us to expect this. Maybe more ancient Force Lore will come from the novelisation. One can only hope.

 

I’m so glad I don’t have to direct a Star Wars movie and ensure that I address every little throw away line, regardless of whether it adds to the story I actually want to tell, because fans have built it up in their heads.

The Skywalker saber is absolutely an important story but it doesn’t add anything to the current narrative. How it got to Rey isn’t going to affect how Rey uses it or impact her journey and so that particular detail is irrelevant in this story.

Knights of Ren were a throw away line so they could cram in a bunch of unused Jedi killer concept art. They’ll probably be back next episode if JJ decides to use them. It could even be argued that the Knight of Ren are the padawans he took when he left the temple.

Same with Snoke - His backstory does not in the slightest impact the story, his actions during the narrative too.

Asking “who’s the girl” adds immense depth to the reveal of Rey. People just didn’t like the answer.

Are we really approaching the age where nothing is left to the imagination? Where every line/character/backstory has to be delivered on a silver platter regardless of whether it needs to be in the story or not?

 

Yeah, it’s not part of the story. Duh. Isn’t that where the complaints come from? Since there was no plan from the beginning, Rian could simply drop all these plot points in favor of whatever he wanted to do.

Brushing off all these setups as “throwaway lines” is just ignoring the whole argument.

 

So RJ has to incorporate Snoke’s backstory, where the saber came from, knights of Ren and a bunch of other things purely because they were brought up in the previous film instead of the story he wanted to tell? Rubbish.

They are throwaway lines not set ups. They are not a plot line. They hint at the wider galaxy - Battle of Tanaab, King Prana, business in Cato Nemoidia. They enrich the world building as they hint at things just off screen. They can absolutely be expanded into fully fledged stories in their own right but they don’t add anything to the one being told.

I also think the whole “8th movie in a Saga” line is false. Why do throwaway lines and possible mysteries suddenly start requiring explanations when we haven’t had that before?

I want the writers to write the movies they want to write and not be locked in to address everything thar fans have built up in their head as being important. That goes for me too. I would’ve loved to see the Knights of Ren. I liked the potential hint that we got but understand that Rian didn’t want them in the story as is his right.

If you’ve built a throwaway line into a whole plot line the onus is on you to not overreact when it doesn’t result.

 

Agree 100%.

 

Um, no. The things you brought up from other movies are throwaway line. Introducing a super powerful ancient dark lord who witnessed the events of the last movies and are more powerful than both Sidious and Vader is NOT the same as mentioning a random battle from the past. Neither is introducing the main villains crew that he is master of, yet go completely unmentioned in the next movie. Not even a comparison.

 

For 2 years, between Dec 2015 and Dec 2017, fans were trying to influence the course of Episode VIII in various ways, from attacking the director and other LF workers such as Pablo or even LF-selected artists by tweeting serious insults, to running futile hashtag campaigns such as #whereis____ #make__ a___ and #stop______, to banning topics, to fandom sites running "think pieces" about what should and what shouldn't be in Episode VIII, to robo voting in SW.com polls hoping to create illusion of popularity/unpopularity, to tweeting fanart, etc. Needless to say, it didn't work. Fans who read the story correctly were correct, fans who didn't read the story correctly couldn't make it go their way with any trick in the book. So 2 more years of the same futility is not going to change the course of IX. If the second movie in the series didn't cater to loud minority demands, the last movie certainly won't because it's the last movie so it's going to be a huge hit no matter what. LF is honest in that regard. IX will follow TLJ.

 

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that they do listen to the backlash and reverse course with IX. Let's say that it turns out that TLJ was all a dream or it turns out that Snoke was actually DP, and that Rey is Luke's daughter and Luke is not really dead.

I think if they go that route there will be more outrage and backlash from the people (myself included) who greatly enjoyed the themes and arcs of TFA and TLJ. Where does that leave us? Why should the people who don't like the sequels get the movie they want? What do those who love them get?

 

There. Were. No. Promises.

There were possibilities. That's it.

Seriously.... the promises were entirely in your head.

I swear to Jeebus...

 

I'm still trying to figure out why a subset of vehemently angry fans deserve to be catered.

Why exactly does this vocal minority deserve restitution, at the expense of everyone else?

 

I think JJ 100% brings the Knights of Ren into the story seen as they were his creation and there is room for them now.

Rey will still be a nobody.

JJ's biggest challenge is finding something worthwhile for all these characters to do.