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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Will this movie make or break the ST for you?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Libs, Apr 22, 2019.

  1. Roosterq

    Roosterq Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 6, 2017
    You start by saying "Well that’s ok if that’s how you feel." then proceed to explain how wrong my opinion is. Not to mention misrepresent just about everything I said.

    As for my belief he abandoned everyone, and everything, how else are you suppose to explain him being on a deserted island and no one knowing where he is and clearly not wanting to be found, topped off with his instance not to return to the fight or train Rey. If that is not abandonment please explain what would be? Feeling sad has nothing to do with the issue. He was sad to find out Vader was Anakin, but he did not run and hide on a remote planet never to return. He decided to bring Vader back to the light, even when EVERYONE else in the galaxy had lost hope in Vader ever being redeemed.

    "The key word you used was vehemently" I think you misunderstand the definition of the word, because your suggested alternative, is not comparable to the definition of the word vehemently.

    I will agree that waiting until the final movie is out before passing absolute judgement on the ST as a whole, but for now all we have is all we have, and if we do not discuss the trilogy on what information we do have, the forums would be pretty much dead until after the release of the final movie.
     
  2. Grilled Hutt

    Grilled Hutt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2003
    I’m sorry i said that it’s ok that’s how you feel because i wanted to assert that there’s nothing wrong with your opinion so that when i explained my viewpoint it would NOT be about breaking your explanation there. This tired subject always seems to make people feel like a normal response turn into a personal attack but i was actually trying to avert that very response.
    This is also tied into to the highly charged emotional responses in which people vehemently respond.

    Yoda hid while the empire destroyed so did obi wan. Running off to hide for whatever reason, despite what we think about it, seems to be normal in star wars.
     
  3. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Yoda and Obi Wan were "waiting" far more than "hiding". Waiting for Luke to be ready to train. I suppose Luke could be considered to be "waiting" as well. But, of his own admission, he was waiting for someone else to care about his friends' problems.
     
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  4. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Also; Yoda and Obi-wan went into 'hiding' after giving it their best, fighting Vader and Palpattine one last time, after the creation of the Empire. Luke went into hiding, before Kylo Ren and the FO were created. It's like if Yoda said "Begun the clone wars have. Off I go. Into exile I must" in AOTC. The merest hint of trouble and Luke gives up to 'wait' for someone one to clean up his mess.
     
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  5. Grilled Hutt

    Grilled Hutt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Sure but because we don’t know the whole story then Luke is the same as them. We don’t know how much and what has happened since ROTJ...which is why i feel that i’m just gonna wait till all is said and done. And again he did cut himself off from the force and Yoda had a comment for that but until we understand the whole story i think it’s premature to assume such about Luke. Based on what little we know calling him a coward or selfish or whatever is a problem of perspective imo.
     
  6. Darth Geezy

    Darth Geezy Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2016
    I think this is where the ST has failed us. Star Wars movies are more about re-watchability of a connected family saga. We don't need the shock and awe. Most viewers want to just see a well told story, even if it is somewhat predictable, and within that well told story, we want to see space battles and such.

    Rian Johnson's crusade to subvert expectations really hurt the franchise. I don't believe J.J. Abrams envisioned The Last Jedi being the way it turned out.

    The specific things I'd point to - 1. the death of Snoke with no explanation or connection to past events told on-screen now two movies in 2. a protagonist that seemingly has no connection to past events/people, now two movies in, and 3. basically crapping on the lives of our Big 3 heroes with little exposition, now two movies in.

    These things have left the ST feeling disconnected from the other the six movies.

    If a person who had never watched Star Wars before was to watch Episodes 1 through 9, in order, they'll feel like Episodes 1 through 6 make perfect sense, but when they get to Episode 7, they'll feel like they're in some sort of a bizarro alternate world.

    The ST just feels like a tacked-on random story when, personally, I went in hoping they'd tell a story that would at least feel as though it was the plan from the beginning of Star Wars. Even if the audience knows it isn't true, Episodes 7 through 9 should have been written more from the prism of "this was always the plan for where this story was heading." But it doesn't feel that way in the least.

    It'll be interesting to see if J.J. Abrams is able to clean up the mess.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  7. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    At this point I doubt anything could make me enjoy TLJ, but TROS could absolutely improve my appreciation for TFA, which I’m still somewhat ambivalent over. The big problem with TFA is the mystery boxing that invites you to ask why/how is all this happening without giving answers, and then it ends with a massive cliff-hanger to underscore the project. So if TROS behaves like a sequel to TFA then that could be very satisfying in ways that TLJ wasn’t.
     
  8. indydefense

    indydefense Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2019
    The whole "subvert expectations" thing is a creation of the media. To my knowledge, Johnson himself has never actually claimed that was his goal.

    It's kind of irrelevant what JJ may have intended, because he jumped ship after one movie. That shows how much he cared about the story. There are very few filmmakers who would want to be bound by what another writer devised. Do you think JJ would've taken kindly to being told he had to adhere to the Thrawn trilogy novels? I mean, George Lucas's work is one thing, but Abrams, Johnson and Timothy Zahn are all basically on the same level of authority on what Star Wars is.
     
  9. Jedi Master Scorpio

    Jedi Master Scorpio Star Wars Television star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2015
    I've been pro-st since the beginning and that hasn't changed. TROS will neither make or break it for me.
     
  10. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2018
    Oof. RJ on the same level as Zahn? That hurts physically.
     
  11. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Honestly, anyone who thinks we're going to get all the answers about why Luke did what he did or why Kylo turned or whatever should be waiting for a ten novel series coming out somewhere around 2025, not expecting those answers in Ep 9. JJ hasn't got any idea of why these things happened other than "I needed to go back to go forward" and that he liked ANH more than any of the other films. Oh, and he and KK love Adam Driver so this whole trilogy has become the Kylo Show. Plus he's got 2.5 hours to wrap this thing up, he couldn't even be bothered to put in a scene of Leia which sort of explained the political situation in TFA. He's not going to stop and explain things now. That's not his style at all.

    It's not just Johnson. He didn't come in and wreck a perfect setup, it was already a creaky mess and Johnson just poured fuel on it and set it on fire. The OT3 were trashed in TFA, Snoke meaning nothing was set up in TFA, the protagonist having no connection to the events was set up by making her whole past a mystery box except for the saber - which is a story for another time. I doubt JJ envisioned anything past the end of the movie. He threw it onscreen and then booked, as he's done throughout his career.
     
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  12. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    On Rian Johnson's intentions;
    He probably didn't flat out state he was looking to subvert viewers expectations (although I would really argue that was his intent on a lot of it).
    But didn't he claim if he doesn't piss off half the audience he hasn't done his job?
    Which is the same thing... or worse.


    You make a good point, but maybe this will be the first JJ film that doesn't work like this? [face_worried]
    But I'm serious, he could surprise us.
    There were a lot of unused TFA ideas, and apparently somewhat of a skeleton plan for the trilogy that was discarded by RJ, that I would think has come heavily back into play.
    I'm optimistic that as he is doing a follow-up (well, follow up to it's sequel) of another of his movies, and the characters he created in TFA, he might have some good ideas.
    Plus a co-writer among other collaborators would I think push him to add some depth. And there is a magnitude of SW lore to use, they would really be spoiled for choice on elements to use if they are truly signing off this part of the franchise.
    Speculatively, he may have come around to wanting some elements of the PT's style of exposition on some level. Maybe.

    And FWIW leaks would suggest we get backstory to why Kylo turned.
    Explanation of Luke's demeanor in TLJ may be less likely.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  13. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Well, if that's so, then, as someone once put it: Mission accomplished.
     
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  14. Iefan

    Iefan Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Is there a source for this?

    What a bizarre thing for a director to say.
     
  15. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Sure, here.

    https://dorksideoftheforce.com/2018/05/17/rian-johnson-destroy-star-wars-fandom/





    I think it sums up that he wasn't looking to fittingly continue the story, rather be controversial at the established characters' expense.

    Although that first link supports his decision, lol.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  16. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Even in that though most of the actual events themselves aren't a problem if actual context is thrown in. Luke could outright end Kylo Ren with no problem if he wanted to except that would be more of an assassin ethic than a Jedi one (unlike Yoda and Obi-Wan going after Sidious and Vader). Snoke was the real problem as was the First Order's power. Luke could see the power of the First Order coming. He could tell Leia of this and she forms the Resistance because they both know the Republic itself is completely inept (for what could be multiple reasons leading back to Snoke).

    Luke is only one Jedi (why he doesn't have even a nascent Jedi Order is another question) so there is only so much he could do. This is one of the problems of this ST where the actual power of the Jedi is overplayed.

    Unfortunately that is the situation. TFA didn't "break" the ST from the very start exactly but did take it straight to a breaking point with the immense pressure it placed on the next two movies.

    No one wanted to do an "Episode VII". JJ and RJ both basically did their own versions of VIII. I said this at the time of TFA's release:

    "Imagine if the OT had basically started with TESB or the PT with AOTC. ANH and TPM set the events out, introduced the characters and situations and acclimatized you for the following installments. TFA is almost Episode VIII. The old adage is "show don't tell." and while that gets many interpretations by people to me the way to apply it to TFA is that we are told that Kylo Ren is Ben Solo and he had "Too much Vader in him" and that Luke was training new Jedi and like his grandfather young Kylo betrayed the Jedi and destroyed then sending his uncle Luke into exile to await...an Awakening?"
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  17. starocean90

    starocean90 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2014
    lol, he did his job now no one will forget this movie. The people who loved it will remember it and the ones who hate it, no matter how they try they won't be able to forget what he's done with it.

    it's sad that RJ is that type of person, instead of just telling a good story that at least continues off from TFA better.
     
  18. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2013
    That's a very good way to put it really the only way that TFA could have been considered an Episode VII was if JJ was handling the whole thing. Since that was not the case there was an incredible amount of pressure on the other two films to do it justice and depending on who you talk to TLJ succeeded. The only thing it has done is made me not care about what was my favorite franchise and be apathetic about TROS. The ironic thing is that I don't think Disney cares anyway they just get the dollars from me in the Marvel form now these days....
     
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  19. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    How can anyone answer this question without seeing the movie?
     
  20. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    The real question is if your avi will make a great movie.


    The answer is yes.
     
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  21. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks the next Star Wars film should be Mon Mothra vs. Godzilla.
     
  22. Roosterq

    Roosterq Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 6, 2017
    The difference between Luke's exile and Obi Wan's exile for me is that Obi Wan was waiting and hoping for Luke to be ready to train, and Luke's exile was permanent by his own admission. Obi Wan hadn't written off ever returning to the fight, and when he received the message from Leia, he was ready to do what ever he could without any hesitation.
     
  23. NOTJEDIMATERIAL

    NOTJEDIMATERIAL Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 3, 2018
    Ok, I admit this Godzilla is my favorite movie franchise, now I have said it!!
     
  24. ObiSpamBaloney

    ObiSpamBaloney Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 12, 2014
    We'll always have the first 6 movies, even if they mess up the Saga's conclusion by:
    * NOT explaining why Rey is so skilled and powerful in a way that puts to rest the "Mary Sue" claims, which are not unfounded. I'm going to reserved judgement until the end of Episode 9. If it's not been explained satisfactorily, then she is one, and we have our current political/cultural climate to blame.
    * NOT explaining exactly what it means to bring the force into balance in a way that is understandable....
    * ...NOR actually bringing the force into balance and having a meaningful conclusion to the entire saga (even if it means, it's a generational thing that requires constant vigilance, which is fine, and I presume it will have to be).
    * NOR the foundation of a new stable government laid. Poe and Finn need to have some meaningful role in what follows (e.g. Poe leading, and Finn as some kind of military leader)
    * NOR a proper send-off for Leia and Luke
    * [Optional - but would be really nice to have] Explaining Anakins origins and having that and Palpatine (and Plageius, or someone equivalent - e.g. Snoke) relate to that and concluded.
    No loose threads. Everything's explained. A new adventure/challenge/struggle hinted at. No more Skywalker stuff after this, other than say a special new group/brand of force users (e.g. "Skywalkers" a.k.a. Grey Jedi's)
    * [Optional] Hints of a future threat from another galaxy, which would set the stage for an entirely new saga

    If they mess this up, we can always pretend the ST was glorified fan fiction (EU) material, and ignore it. How well they handle those points above will make or break the Sequel Trilogy for me. Honestly the new characters were meh for me. They don't live up to the original ones. Just imitations at best. I think the end result will be meh. It won't suck. It will just be ok.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  25. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    You have make Palpatine work now that he's clearly the phantom menace again. I'm generally on board with bringing him back, but if the mechanics and thematic ideas behind his resurrection are iffy, then that dilutes the stakes and the overall intention of this trilogy.