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JCC [Woody Allen, among others]Can you separate a person's art, work and/or career from their actions?

Discussion in 'Community' started by DarthTunick , Feb 3, 2014.

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Can you separate a person's art, work and/or career from their actions?

  1. Yes

    33 vote(s)
    75.0%
  2. NO

    11 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. DarthTunick

    DarthTunick SFTC VII + Deadpool BOFF star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2000
  2. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I was thinking about this actually, in light of some recent events as well as the Woody Allen scenario (for what it's worth, I just got around to reading Dylan Farrow's open letter this morning and agree with @harpua's interpretation).

    I think it's about tolerance. People always have a line in the sand to what's acceptable to them and to what extent they'll compromise their ideals when the "harm" an action does is sufficiently distanced from them. Wagner's alleged role in creating Nazism - an ideology which, through the resulting war, affected both my grandparents deeply - is something I can dismiss because it's clear Wagner was no fascist, and as I discover his works I enjoy them more and more.

    Conversely, to the extent I dug up my old boxes of CDs to find the one lostprophets album to ensure I threw it out in response to the singer's guilty plea for wholesale sex abuse offenses, that's a line I won't cross.

    I think that drives our dealings with controversial artists more than we admit, and actually means I owe KW an apology because he was at least upfront and honest about his stance than some of us unintentionally were.
     
    DarthTunick likes this.
  3. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I can't enjoy the Naked Gun movies because Anna Nicole Smith was a drug addict.
     
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  4. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    I do generally judge an artist by the art they create separately from how they were in their private life. Many creative people are not very nice, that isn't to say they aren't creative.
    Criminal behaviour though is a different line to cross compared to say just being a jerk.

    Polanski still seems to be able to get work and get actors of note to appear in his movies despite what he has done. I have watched several of his movies because I can appreciate his creative abilities while still thinking what he did was wrong. Appreciating someone's creative work is different to appreciating them as a person.

    I still watch matches featuring former WWE star Chris Benoit, because they are great matches. I appreciate the guy's talent, but I don't in any way support him murdering his wife & son. WWE are arguably justified in trying to erase all traces of him from their programming, they don't want to be seen as endorsing a murderer (of course, just showing his matches does not mean they condone his behaviour, but as a business they can't afford bad publicity if it can be avoided).

    Many pro-Capitalists in the US hold up guys like Walt Disney & Henry Ford as great examples of how the system works and so on. They of course always overlook the fact neither guy was a model citizen outside of their business success. Ford was very much admired by Hitler and was editor of a known anti-Semitic newspaper, he even received a Nazi medal. Disney was believed to have been a member of an anti-Semitic club as well as a racist. Even if that isn't true his behaviour towards his workers was pretty bad, he apparently hired guys with guns to intimidate workers who were striking against him.
    Is a fascist & a control-freak autocrat the sort of people Americans should be idolising and championing as a role model to others? No, because most are championing their achievements as businessmen and what they created rather than the men themselves.

    How many people refuse to buy a Ford car or go to see a Disney movie because of the views/behaviour of the company founder? I'm willing to bet it isn't a lot.



    The current accusations against Rolf Harris will raise a question of separating work from private life. Apparently the palace has removed the portrait of The Queen that he did since they don't want to be associated with someone accused of sex offenses.
     
  5. Healer_Leona

    Healer_Leona Squirrel Wrangler of Fun & Games star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2000
    Never been a Woody Allen fan, so my thinking he's scum, alleged scum, only verifies my not liking his films.

    As far as anyone I do really like and find they are despicable, I'm not sure. I'd imagine I'd lose respect for them and yes that would probably decrease the amount of enjoyment I would get from their art. Certainly if their wrong doings come to mind every time I see/hear/read their work.
     
    SithLordDarthRichie likes this.
  6. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    That Bill Cosby article was pretty disturbing.

    EDIT: KnightWriter - please see my previous post in this thread. I apologise; you were actually far more accurate and honest than I was.
     
  7. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Okay but the differences are I. most people didn't know those things during their lifetimes, II. society had not fully rejected those things during their lifetimes, III. buying a product isn't the same as publically honoring someone.

    But suppose they were still alive and were about to receive a lifetime award. It would be totally different.
     
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  8. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001

    Well also because of what I was saying earlier, about the distance between the actions of that celebrity, and you the consumer. I don't know for sure but I would imagine Jewish groups would have issues with Disney and elect not to spend money on Disney products. (Though from what I understand, Disney was defended by Jewish colleagues as simply racially insensitive as per the norms of the time).

    I mean, I would imagine Cuban migrants and their kids who fled the regime would find (cli)Che Guevara iconography offensive, but their grandkids might not because of the distance between the two.

    I guess we all make compromises with ourselves when it comes to art we like and products we consume, and distance between the act and us seems to be a factor.
     
  9. Penguinator

    Penguinator Former Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005

    The show? Some of the cast members are literally ex-cons. Can't watch that anymore!
     
  10. Pensivia

    Pensivia Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2013
    I'm new to the JCC area of the forums, but since I have been a pretty big fan of Woody Allen for a number of years, I felt compelled to chime in for what it's worth.

    I am old enough to remember a number of the specific circumstances surrounding the allegations against WA from when they first came out in the 1990s. I didn't believe them then (for a number of reasons) and so hadn't given them much thought (with some exception) in most of the years since then. But reading Dylan's letter the other day made me question my long-standing personal belief that the incident never happened. However, after reading Robert B. Weide's well-developed article on the subject [ http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/27/the-woody-allen-allegations-not-so-fast.html ] as well as some additional examples of original reporting done at the time (Weide's piece links to several key original articles from the 90s), I again find myself coming back to my original conclusion that the allegations are false (though of course neither Woody's defenders or his critics can ever know what really happened or didn't happen). Child molestation is a truly hideous crime, but I also think it is a terrible thing when a person's reputation is ruined forever due to false allegations, and that is what I personally feel has happened here.

    As far as the poll question goes, I didn't vote because I think so much depends on the particular circumstances in question (i.e., how meaningful the art in question is to the person considering it, the nature of the bad actions the artist is accused and/or convicted of, etc.). Because of how meaningful and compelling I find a number of Allen's films to be and because of how many years I have enjoyed his work, I'm guessing that even if new evidence came to light that made me change my mind about his innocence, it would still be very difficult for me to never revisit my favorite Allen films again. But if I did believe he was guilty, I do know that it would certainly affect me emotionally, causing deep disappointment and sadness, and perhaps it would change my emotional response to those films when/if I did rewatch them. Since I firmly believe that he is innocent, though, I really can't know for sure how changing my mind would affect my response to his work.

    I do know that the sometimes terrible behavior and/or attitudes of other artistic figures from the more distant past has not affected my love for artworks that I enjoy. For example, when the 17thc sculptor Bernini suspected the married woman he was having an affair with of cheating on him with a 2nd lover, he ordered a servant to slash the woman's face with a razor. While I find that act repugnant, learning about it has not affected my love for his beautiful sculptures. I'm sure, as Ender Sai pointed out above, that the great distance between that act and my own life is a huge factor.

    [*side note: I do not condone Woody's choice to enter into a relationship with Soon-Yi. While he was not her adoptive father (or even a "father figure" to her) and never lived in her household, and while I believe that their relationship did not begin until she was legally an adult, I find it very distasteful (to say the least) that he was able to form such a relationship with his lover's adopted daughter--a woman who his own children (two adoptive, one biological--or at least Woody believed him to be his bio child at the time) saw as their sister. But I don't think the facts of that relationship mean that he should automatically be equated with a child molester.]
     
  11. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    See, I don't really understand this. Regardless of whether the allegations are true, have they had any effect whatsoever on his professional life? He still produces well-received films starring well-known actors. This whole new round started when he received a lifetime achievement award from the Hollywood Foreign Press, a prestigious and influential body. When he's dead, I'm sure the allegations will be a footnote in his career, barring some revelatory evidence that wasn't covered 20 years ago coming out today. His estrangement from Rowan and Dylan probably hurt him, sure, but his relationship with their "half-sister" likely would have had that effect anyway.
     
  12. Mr. K

    Mr. K Moderator Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    Well, there's a flip-side to it too. Roman Polanski did have sex with an underage girl, no dispute, and he's exiled from US soil for those reasons; but does that affect how people react to his films?
     
  13. Pensivia

    Pensivia Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2013
    You raise a good point. Weide actually mentions in the article that Woody is generally pretty far removed from all the internet chatter about this latest round (he doesn't use computers or the Internet, etc.). And Weide suggests that WA doesn't let even what criticisms he has been aware of affect him that much. But even though it certainly hasn't affected his professional life, I can't imagine that he doesn't care on some level that a lot of people believe something really terrible about him that (IMO) he knows to be false. I know that something like that would bother me, but I readily admit that I care a lot more about what people think of me personally than Woody apparently does. So I'm probably projecting a bit in my quote above. A lot of it is probably the fact that I feel terrible about it because I have such a fondness for Woody as an artist!
     
  14. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001

    Aren't people in Hollywood campaigning for him to be allowed to return?!
     
  15. Mr. K

    Mr. K Moderator Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    Probably. Statutes of limitations or some such.
     
  16. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    There is no statute of limitations that applies. He fled the jurisdiction after pleading guilty when he found out he wouldn't just get probation.
     
  17. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    It's hardly "exile" when you're a criminal fleeing justice, besides.
     
  18. Mr. K

    Mr. K Moderator Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    He's a fugitive from the law, yes. A 'self imposed' exile. nasty fellow....
     
  19. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2012
    It depends on how serious the action is.
    I can say that person is great on his/her career while his/her action is meh, but I won't say I like him/her.
     
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  20. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Apology accepted, Ender.

    Cosby is definitely out for me. Will never look at anything of his ever again. He's a criminal that managed to evade justice thanks to his star power, which is common yet still unacceptable. Had he faced the appropriate charges for his behavior, much of what he is known for would never have existed in the first place.
     
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  21. Juliet316

    Juliet316 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
    Actually I agree with you on this point. I'll use the recently deceased Phillip Seymour Hoffman as an example. I still think what he did in his career is great and would probably watch his films again, however, as much as I still like his work, and as much as I sympathize and understand that addiction is a disease and a lifelong struggle, the fact that he choose his addiction over his three young children and subseqently left them without a father does leave a bad taste in my mouth.
     
  22. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Juliet...what?

    At what ****ing point do you think addition is a choice?!

    "I could lead a normal life, free of torment, but to hell with it - I'm going to shoot up for six hours"

    A number of factors lead to substance dependence, which includes a genetic predisposition. Heroin is therefore especially dangerous because the nature of the high is such that physical and psychological dependence can easily result from use. Jason Mewes described it as the single greatest feeling he's ever had, and each subsequent hit is about chasing that first high.

    Addiction is a disease, and your token but dismissive acknowledgment of this does nothing to undo the fact you made it a choice for PSH. That attitude, an unflinchingly unsympathetic one, is precisely why we tend to treat addicts as criminals rather than victims and maintain an accordingly destructive anti-drug policy framework.
     
  23. Isotope217

    Isotope217 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2002
    Despite the deplorable and perverted acts of the typographer and lettering artist Eric Gill, for me the genius of his letterform can't be denied. When I became aware of the details of his personal life (incest, bestiality), my estimation of his stature as an artist was certainly affected. It crosses my mind when working with his fonts, but I still do use and admire them.
     
  24. Harpua

    Harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    This post is incredibly ignorant. It's obvious that you know next to nothing about addiction. It's also obvious to me that you experience life by viewing it on various screens---whether it be your computer screen or your television screen--you even listen to music via a screen. Your opinions are fed to you by sensationalist "news" reporters. Have you ever interacted with an addict? How do you know that he chose his addiction over his children?
     
  25. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2000
    "I could live a normal life, free of torment, but to hell with it - I'm going to molest a child" makes just as much sense as what you just said.

    If there's no responsibility that can be placed upon a drug addict because of genetic predispositions toward addiction and his actions can therefore not be judged in a moral way, isn't the case the same for pedophiles? Assuming Allen is a child molester . . . well, no, let's just use Celebrity A. Let's say Celebrity A is a child molester; don't we all agree that he has those urges for reasons beyond his control? Maybe he has a predisposition. Maybe he was molested himself. If a drug addict doesn't choose to be an addict, does a child molester choose to be a child molester? Or let's look at Politician B: "I could live a normal life, free of torment, and in a position of incredible power, but to hell with it - I'm going to risk it all via sexual abuse of women." What really is the difference between a person with a normal sex drive and a genuine sex addict? What if Athlete C really just has a naturally higher sex drive? What if promiscuous sex is "the single greatest feeling he's ever had?" What if there are emotional and psychological issues that render him extremely susceptible to, you know, cheating on his wife repeatedly? Might he be addicted? Is he really "choosing" to be who he is?

    I understand the power of addictions of all types. I've been around, and in some cases, lived with, people driven by all kinds of compulsions. I have a relative that has spent his entire life wrecking relationships because he seems compelled to cheat on any woman that trusts him for more than a week. I know people and lived with some in the past that were in various stages of living free from addictions to street drugs. I have another relative who fought alcoholism for years. Yes, these people are in the grip of something really, incredibly powerful and I cannot even begin to imagine how it must feel to be trying to stop shooting up heroin when you crave it with every fiber of your body or trying to be faithful to one person when the only thing you crave in life is the intensity of promiscuous sex or to try to keep from molesting a child when you have those desires as part of your basic makeup.

    But that can't remove personal responsibility off of the individual. Let's not act like people like Hoffman are in the grip of some implacable fate and that ever since the first time he tried heroin he was locked into the death he died. My depression is something I'm genetically predisposed to. I refuse to believe that locks me into suicide, that it's going to simply kill me one day because that's my predisposition. When I was going through my last breakdown in 2012, I nearly did. But I made that one last call that turned it around and I survived. I look at that day now and I can almost say that I was in the grip of something bigger than I was and something I couldn't control - if I had killed myself that day, I'm not sure you could have said it was my fault. On the other hand, I'm alive, aren't I? So apparently it wasn't something totally beyond my control. If I had killed myself that day, you could talk about the huge obstacle I was facing and how extreme and intense my disease was. Unfortunately, you'd also have to admit that I did still have a choice.

    You see, to act like people like Hoffman don't have a choice is insulting to all those who made the choice you say he couldn't. That guy I lived with while he was getting off drugs? He didn't give up. Don't tell him he didn't have a choice. He knows he did because he made it. And telling addicts that they don't have a choice about their behavior is self-defeating in the extreme. If my friend had believed he couldn't choose to get off drugs, he wouldn't have tried. And he'd be just as dead today as Hoffman is. Luckily, he wasn't sophisticated enough to know that he could choose to kick the stuff.
     
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