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JCC [Woody Allen, among others]Can you separate a person's art, work and/or career from their actions?

Discussion in 'Community' started by DarthTunick , Feb 3, 2014.

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Can you separate a person's art, work and/or career from their actions?

  1. Yes

    33 vote(s)
    75.0%
  2. NO

    11 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2012
    Again it still depends on the action.

    Having an affair? Ok not something nice but not too big of a deal.
    Drug addict? We shouldn't mention it but as long as it doesn't affect his/her life to much...
    Sexual assault? Well if it's real then this man is quite bad.
    Serial Killer? :(
     
  2. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    O.J. Simpson is a repulsive human being, and I have a difficult time fully enjoying the Naked Gun films but not for the reason you would think. In ever single one of them, he's beaten, stabbed, run over, shot, blown up, etc. and I just feel really weird laughing at that for some reason.
     
  3. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Steven Segal. He has a fictional past that has changed over time to accomodate people catching his lies. He is a casting couch film maker. When he was on SNL he tried to get them to do a skit where he was a psychiatrist treating a rape victim and he comes on to her. They didn't let him do it. I have out of morbid curiosity watched his lawman tv show and it is not only terrible, it's basically an advert for Steven Segal and how cool he wants you to think he is.

    I have watched both Under Siege flicks many times, and still can if there is nothing else on but at some point his history jumps to mind and I change the channel.
     
  4. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001

    It's funny, you say you know people with compulsive personality types and therefore understand yet your entire post can be summed as "knows as much about drug addiction as Juliet".

    What really annoys me about this high minded ignorance, that you both temper with varying degrees of indignation, is that you have absolutely no basis in reality for talking about drug addicts. You might have seen the odd show or film (i.e. Requiem for a Dream) cover the topic and assumed that based on that you have insight.

    You actually don't.

    If you re-read what I wrote, you will see I cleared clarified my remark by noting there are several causes, of which genetic predisposition is one. The medical journal The Lancet did a study of the addictive features of narcotics, in an attempt to develop a rational scale to assess the harm of drugs to individuals. They tabled the results with values ranging from 0 - 3, with three being strongest. They recorded the pleasure the high gives with the resultant psychological and physical dependency risk.

    Esctasy, a drug that at one point it was estimated 80% of club goers in the 90s were using (guilty), has a high of 1.5, a psychological dependency of 1.2 and a physical dependency of 0.7. In other words, it's a mid range high (MDMA triggers a dump of serotonin, in simple terms) that, because it can alleviate anxiety and make people an intimacy they can't in real life it has a higher risk of psychological dependency occurring than physical dependency (mostly because as good as you felt, you realise whatever that was, white boy, it was not dancing). The mean score is therefore 1.13

    Marijuana has a mean score of 1.51, based on a high of 1.9, a psychological dependence of 1.7 and a physical dependence of 0.8.

    So with these two, drugs that are often the most likely to be consumed in youth (along with speed), can be habit forming but aren't addictive and produce mild highs.

    Heroin is 3.0 across the board.

    (The article can be found: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673607604644/abstract by searcing for the title: "Development of a rational scale to assess the harm of drugs
    of potential misuse" by Nutt, King, Saulsbury and Blakemore, 2007).

    The reason I point this out is that heroin is ridiculously destructive and judging people who can successfully walk away against those who can't is a cruel stance. I strongly advise you listen to the earliest episodes of Jay and Silent Bob Get Old, a podcast Kevin Smith did to keep Jason Mewes ("Jay" in his films) accountable to his sobreity. Mewes was a heroin addict, and hearing about the attempts at rehab, about diluting the heroin solution with dirty toilet water to shoot it, about how low he got? It might stop you judging the **** out of people for no reason.

    And even when people get clean, they often do so after a few relapses. I've spoke about Dave Mustaine here, but that guy had so many attempts at it and kept relapsing because the disease of addiction is a hard one to fight, and overcome.

    Comparing it to pedophilia is an absolute low, a form of neo-Godwining as you sit in judgement on a topic you think you're qualified for because you know someone who can't commit? 90% of men can't commit, Rogue. But I'm pretty sure in them or even kiddie fildders this doesn't happen:

    The CREB protein, a transcription factor activated by cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP) immediately after a high, triggers genes that produce proteins such as dynorphin, which cuts off dopamine release and temporarily inhibits the reward pathway. In chronic drug users, a sustained activation of CREB thus forces a larger dose to be taken to reach the same effect. In addition it leaves the user feeling generally depressed and dissatisfied, and unable to find pleasure in previously enjoyable activities, often leading to a return to the drug for an additional "fix"

    Unless of course, and maybe you or Dr Juliet can confirm this, the target of their predatory evil has skin that's exclusively an opiate?

    (To clarify, the above paragraph is talking about how the chemical receptors in the body inhibit the release of dopamine in "typical" quantities when they encounter a narcotic stimulant, dimming the high and requiring more of the narcotic to achieve the desired effect. In short, it gets harder and harder to get as high as you used to, and when you deal with drugs that are intravenously injected you significantly increase the risk of death from respiratory despression, cardiac arrest etc)

    You talk about your own depression - here's the thing, Rogue. You know how society is all "ew, ew, mental illness, ew!"? You're doing that to addiction. You know when people say, "yeah, but can't you just be happy?" And you have to think, "No! Jesus do you think I enjoy this? Do you think all that's missing is a bit of cheery thought?" I know you can't control it. I know it's not something you indulge. I know you have to deal with insipid questions of people who just don't get it.

    And we both know there are people who have it worse than you out there, who require insane levels of medication and psychiatric care. People who are a significant self-harm risk.

    So tell me, if there's degrees to how depression and psychosis affect the brain, why can't there be degrees to which narcotic dependency affects the brain?

    Again, though, this is immaterial since you chose to ignore the qualifiers I put in place about how there are factors that influence it "including genetic predisposition".

    When I said our society has a problem with addicts being treated as criminals rather than as sick victims, it was not a coded invitation to reinforce how society does that. Drug addicts aren't born waiting for you and Juliet to judge them; they end up there after a series of bad decisions or bad events puts them on a downward spiral that's incredibly impossible to get off.

    That you and Juliet316 have taken this position at least confirms one positive. It confirms you've never known a heroin addict or lost someone to heroin.

    You're lucky for that.
     
    Zapdos and Adam of Nuchtern like this.
  5. dp4m

    dp4m JCC Playoff Pick 'Em Winner, Also a Narc star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Pro-tip: don't ask someone in AA when they're going to stop going to meetings.
     
    Juliet316 likes this.
  6. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    It's not easy to know for sure without physically examining his brain post-mortem, but he may have CTE from his football career. Symptoms include anger issues, violent outbursts, depression, and suicidal thoughts.
     
  7. Juliet316

    Juliet316 4X Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
    Ender Sai, I've never known a heroin addict, no. However addiction, particularly alcohol addiction runs very strongly with my family. And most of those that struggled with alcoholism weren't the 'Tee Hee party time" or slurring their words, falling down drunks either. They were the 'You fear for your life because when they get drunk they get angry, violent,' types. Some chose to get clean and ultimately chose not to drink anymore, others struggled, and failed, some died never even trying. It's those types of experiences with those family members in fact that have made me swear never to even get close to a drop of alcohol, knowing how that goes in my family. It's made me absolutely convinced that in some people, alcoholism can be just as destructive as a lot of the illegal drugs out there. Yes, addiction is powerful, but you know what? As much as I can have sympathy for an addict, it is ultimately has to be their choice over whether to try and overcome their addiction. And sometimes even with all the love and support in the world, they don't.
     
  8. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Ok so then they don't, you hop up on your high horse and judge until you feel like a better person, right Juliet? Ha ha, failures.

    Do you call them weak, too?
     
  9. harpua

    harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Juliet... do you believe that morbidly obese people who end up dying from heart disease are failures who chose food over their children?
     
  10. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    It's hilarious when they try and lose weight, and die of heart attack just like it's hilarious when an alcoholic or drug addict can't beat their disease too. Haha, weak stupid babies!
     
  11. dp4m

    dp4m JCC Playoff Pick 'Em Winner, Also a Narc star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001

    I ask this in all seriousness -- isn't there a lot of research on obesity that doesn't place as much weight (no pun intended) on genetic predisposition and genetic markers as in the case of substance addiction? I thought I'd read some articles that placed it roughly 50/50 in the ratio of genetic predispositions / markers to diet/exercise/choice.
     
  12. harpua

    harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    50/50 sounds about right. I'm just saying, without knowing somebody personally--knowing their family history, personal habits, character, their will, self esteem, resilience, fears--you know, the things that make them human beings, as opposed to a person on a screen or news story, you can't accurately judge which is which--nor should one even attempt to.
     
  13. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I haven't even touched on the whole point that PSH obviously did try to beat his addiction based on several trips to rehab. But this is immaterial to Juliet. PSH was a pathetic, weak man who couldn't beat his addiction and we should judge the **** out of him.

    Plus as an addict, he's about the same as a pedophile.
     
  14. Juliet316

    Juliet316 4X Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
    WTH, no, I never equated PSH to a pedophile. No, not even close. All I said was that the manner of his death tainted my view of him outside of his work. That's miles different from say my view of Roman Polanski, for whom I wouldn't even touch his work with a twenty foot pole, knowing that he's an admitted child rapist and fugitive from justice from it.
     
  15. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    While I don't think pedophiles and drug addicts are equivalent or that we even need compare and contrast the two, I do think there are factors that most people don't understand or consider about pedophiles in much the same way there are factors most people don't consider about addicts. I mean, most pedophiles were themselves abused as children, and Roman Polanski in particular was a ****ing Holocaust victim as a child. Obviously it doesn't excuse it and Polanski being unrepentant to the point of fleeing (what would have likely been) a light prison sentence and deportation (lol) makes those factors less mitigating, I don't think it's fair to see him as 100% monster either.
     
  16. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Guys, do you even read? Rogue absolutely did make that equivocation.
     
  17. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    ? I know.
     
  18. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001

    Also, this is the only point you make. Not your cold indifference to people who cannot beat addiction, despite trying... this?

    I guess you have to do what you have to do to be able to look yourself in the mirror each day.
     
  19. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2000
    All I can tell you right now is that I'm absolutely furious. I just typed up an epic response and then decided against it. Just a couple of points:

    1. I brought up child molestation because this thread stems from an allegation of child molestation against Woody Allen. This isn't the heroin thread, so I'm not sure why you're so shocked, or think it's some kind of new low for me, that I would attempt to tie the conversation about heroin back into the original thread topic. I was trying to merge the two topics. EDIT: and GODDAMN IT I absolutely did not say they were ******* equivalent.

    2. My depression has been fair game for people to talk about because I talk about it. After your post, I've decided not to talk about it again. Consider it off limits. Especially if you're planning to say that my risk of self-harm wasn't "significant."

    3. Actually, I've known two heroin addicts. No, neither of them died. They . . . well, I'd tell you what they did, except you still seem to think it's impossible psst they stopped using heroin

    4. I'm not judging anybody. People have life-controlling problems and I refuse to minimize the power of those problems. However, I also refuse to state that everyone is simply powerless in the grip of those problems. You're the one who thinks humanity is so capable and powerful and magnificent that we don't need God anymore. And yet we still haven't figured a way to help people stop using heroin?

    5. I have never called another person weak in my life. I'm the weakest person I know, actually, in terms of emotional and mental stability. I have never said and will never say that a person struggling with an addiction, whether it's sex or booze or heroin, is weak. People who have survived those things are stronger than I will ever be.

    6. No one that's addicted to anything, or even just struggling with anything really, will ever find their way to freedom by believing that they can't do anything to help themselves. That's the pernicious myth that keeps people trapped. I don't demonize anyone and I know that it must be unbelievably hard to overcome some of these things, like heroin. I have never and will never tell anyone that it's easy. But at the end of the day, it has to be the person that makes the decisions and takes the steps toward recovery. It may be hurtful and shallow to tell people to accept responsibility for the decisions that led them to where they are, but it's a damned lie from hell to tell people that they don't have any choice but to stay there. Your sympathy is admirable, but please don't go around telling addicts that they don't have any choice about staying addicted. Not even just the ones that are addicted to substances that have sufficiently high ratings in The Lancet.
     
    Juliet316 likes this.
  20. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I'm... not?

    Clearly, I have said that some people cannot beat their addiction, which Juliet seems to think is unacceptable and weak.

    That I referenced people like Jay Mewes and Dave Mustaine, who beat heroin, indicates it is possible. But PSH couldn't beat it. He just wasn't strong enough. He tried, as evidenced by how often he checked into rehab. He just couldn't. Saying, from the sheltered comfort of a life of Dr Who videos, that he chose heroin over his kids - the original abhorrent and unsympathetic comment Juliet made - is just so goddam wrong. And I expect you to understand that, Rogue. I really do. I never said you weren't at risk of self harm. I'm saying that any of these spectrum of illnesses have a scale. You're better than some and worse than others. It's not an opinion; if I had time I could pull a number of studies to verify it.

    PSH didn't give up the fight, but he couldn't win it either. You may be a little too close to this discussion to be rational, but you don't get to judge him for that. Neither you, nor Juliet. You haven't actually read my posts objectively (that's a fact, Rogue, by way of rebutting arguments I didn't make) and Juliet's too lazy to do so (or being so goddam perfect she doesn't need to).

    PSH was sick with a really, really sad illness and saying he chose weakness over his kids is a call neither of you can make.
     
  21. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2000
    Well, I don't want to keep grinding this into the ground. I was being a jerk earlier and I own up to that and apologize for it. You didn't say anything out of line about my depression; that little minor rant I did was uncalled for and, well, yeah, you get it.

    I will say that I don't dispute that Hoffman tried to get clean. His record in rehab speaks for itself, but the way you win is day by day. I don't judge for one second how many times a person relapses; but for their own sake, I hope that they manage to beat that out by going to rehab as much as is necessary. It's a cliche, but it's true. It doesn't matter how many times a person falls; what matters is that they rise up even just one more time than they fall. I don't doubt at all that he tried sincerely.

    But I also have to say that your assertion that he "didn't give up the fight" is a misrepresentation. From what we now know, he was visiting his dealer a couple of times a week and buying large portions of heroin each time. That is, for whatever it's worth at this point, capitulation. When you've set up a weekly routine of buying your drugs, you're not fighting your addiction anymore. You're just coming to terms with your addiction and trying to make it work with your life. Well, he found out he couldn't do that.

    I'm not looking down on him for that, I'm really not. He was genuinely a genius and I'll fight anyone who says different. He had flaws and weaknesses as we all do. His genius and his talent was outsized, so his flaws and weaknesses were too, I suppose. I find it sad and tragic because I believe that he could have won and gotten clean. For whatever reason, he didn't do so. I can't parse it down to why he didn't, but he didn't and I just can't believe that it was genuinely impossible for him to have done so. I believe, for whatever it's worth (not much, at this point), that he could have gotten clean. All his efforts to that point had been torturous and to fight on again toward freedom would have been even more so. But I just won't accept that he couldn't. It would have been necessarily hellish and awful but I believe it was possible. I suppose that if I accept that it's impossible for anyone to get clean, then I have to accept that it might be impossible for anyone else to get clean. Maybe this is the root of it, I don't know. But if I accept the assertion that it was impossible for Hoffman to kick the habit, then what do I do when I see another addict that wants to get clean? I can't tell them with certainty that they can do it, if I've accepted that some people can't. Do I say, "Well, let's give it the old college try. Maybe you'll make it and maybe you won't. We'll just have to wait and see." I can't feel any real comfort or faith or help in that statement. When I talk to someone or pray for someone (haha, yeah, I still do that) I have to be able to say, "I know he/she can be free. I know it can happen." Maybe I'm just not up to the unpleasant reality. But I'm a Christian and a Humanist. That means I believe in God and in Man. There's incredible power and potential in both, I believe, power to overcome our darkest impulses. It seems to just be a genuine philosophical break between us. Shouldn't be shocked at that, I suppose. But, whatever, he didn't overcome his darker impulses in this area and it had consequences. I fail to overcome my darkest impulses a lot of the time too, so it would be hard for me to call this judging him or condemning him or anything like that.

    Finally, I wouldn't phrase it in the admittedly sloppy way Juliet put it. It's the nature of sicknesses like drug addiction (of even less intense kinds than heroin) and of mental illnesses, that you cannot think in a completely rational way. No one would ever just put heroin on one side of a scale and their kids on the other, look at things rationally and reasonably, and say, "I choose to be addicted to heroin." But the damnable thing about addiction and other emotional/mental disorders is that it prevents you from looking at things that clearly.
     
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  22. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Ender Sai, I think their point is that there's a difference between saying someone didn't beat their addiction and that they could not have ever, in any possible scenario. That's more than a bit overboard. Many people might be functionally incapable, because it would require more resources/support than is practical or plausible to give to average single individual in sustained fashion. But that's not that same thing as saying it was not possible even at a conceptual level.

    I think we all agree that heroin is bad. I'm pretty sure there is a consensus that addiction is difficult to overcome. I'm not even sure Juliet would characterize the way she did in that one sentence if she had to again (as evidenced by the fact that, you know, she hasn't). There remains, though, an element of personal responsibility that it doesn't make sense to ignore. It is sad he died as a result of his addiction. It is also sad that, decades ago, he made choices that led him down the path to addiction.
     
  23. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2000
    Goddammit, wocky, why don't we call you in on these arguments earlier so you can settle everything and save everybody the time and energy of shouting at each other for three hours?

    Well, actually, your well-reasoned, extremely fair, thoughtful posts just generally don't stop us, I guess. That's more the problem, I think.
     
    Juliet316 likes this.
  24. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    But I'm not saying any of that Wocky.
     
  25. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2000
    I rest my case.




    :p