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ST Would Rose's plan have worked?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by scuiggefest, Jun 21, 2018.

  1. scuiggefest

    scuiggefest Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2002
    Rose assumed that hyperspace tracking was new tech, but that the principle must have been the same as any active tracker. Unfortunately, BB-9E and Captain Phasma caught Finn, Rose, and DJ before they were able to put Rose's assumption to the test. Do you think she was right? Is any information available to corroborate her hypothesis?
     
  2. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2016
    The plan was irrelevant actually. That's what was revealed because Holdo's plan was to abandon the ships and land on Crait till the FO passed.
    So in essence it wasn't exactly necessary.

    BUT had they stopped the FO's tracking and relayed the information back to Holdo BEFORE she enacted her plan? Possibly.

    Who knows? If Poe was able to get them over hologram and prove to her that they'd be safe if they entered hyperspace again, it might've changed her mind and made her respect them enough to listen. Would've been a nice moment to see actually.

    I say prove it because we know that Poe tried to tell her to give them more time and her response was, "A stormtrooper and a who now?" Followed by even more chiding. So...it definitely would've taken some proof. But I think it would've worked if they hadn't been caught. Probably would've helped them out big time.

    But DJ had to narc on them so...we know what happened instead.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
  3. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I *believe* the context of the film establishes it *could* have worked... But enacting the plan was always going to risk a possible, perhaps even likely, capture of the perpetrators, and thus failure.

    No one ever disputes the technobabble explanation for how the hyperspace tracking and concurrent sabotage plan will work, so at least as far as that aspect goes, Rose's plan is perfectly feasible.

    I think we're supposed to take the ease with which BB-Nazi figures out what's going on as a sign that the plan was fundamentally flawed at the "sneak aboard the Supremacy" phase, which would have perhaps been bolstered as an argument against it if they included the scene where Finn is recognized by Stormtrooper TM-HRDY. Still, even with their cover compromised, we see our heroes get within a dozen feet of their target, which might imply they were only a few minutes away from successfully sabotaging the tracker long enough for an escape.

    Having said all that, I also think this is one of the weaker parts of the film, not because it doesn't establish how difficult the Supremacy plan is, but because the backup plan that's supposed to clearly be the smarter and more likely to succeed play is... Well, inadequate. Holdo and Leia's evacuation plan has a best case scenario of still losing all their capital ships, while Rose's plan preserves at least the Raddus. And unfortunately, the film makes the evacuation plan look absurdly flawed by working on the idea that, after 18 hours of pursuing the Resistance in a straight line through space towards a planet, the First Order won't think the Resisatnce might evacuate to that planet. To try and push past this, the film quickly establishes some kind of throw-away cloaking answer... That is then immediately countered by a "de-cloaking scan" the First Order will now use so that DJ's one bit of almost useless information can sink the Resistance. Add in the Space Chase's other serious issues and you can end up feeling like the only part of this subplot that made sense was Rose's plan, and that's including the free-styling they do with a random hacker in a dirty jail cell.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
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  4. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    First off, it wasn't really Rose's plan, but more of Finn, Poe, AND Rose's plan. It's not like Rose was running the show here.

    Second: could it have worked? Yes, it could have... but the odds were million-to-one.

    And that's the thing. We've been conditioned by most stories, including previous Star Wars films, to believe that million-to-one plans are actually guaranteed to succeed. After all, when something does go wrong, it can just be patched up by our plucky, improvisational heroes! Except, not this time.

    There's a major error in your strategic calculus here: you're ignoring the fact that Holdo and Leia's plan had a much higher chance of success than the trio's. Consider what the worst case scenario of both plans is: everybody dies. Yes, Poe's plan, at its best potential outcome, could have preserved more of the Resistance's forces, but it also has far more potential outcomes where everyone dies.

    Let me put it this way: You have two six-sided dice. On the first die, rolling a 1-5 will result in your death, but rolling a 6 would win you $1,000,000. On the second, rolling a 1-5 will net you $500,000, but a 6 will result in your death.

    Which die do you roll? I know I'd pick the second.
     
  5. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Which is where you get people like me who feel the evacuation plan, which is narratively supposed to have the more practical through line and greater chance of success you mentioned, is contradicted and undermined by the issues with the evacuation plan's logical weaknesses.

    As much as the evacuation plan is *supposed* to be more practical and cautious, the film's script still shows it was only a few keyboard clicks from being rendered utterly useless: it's ultimately a "decloaking scan" the Supremacy can run with its computers that exposes the charade, with DJ's only actual contribution being the information that the Resistance was loading transports. This means that the only thing standing between the Resistance safely landing on the planet unnoticed and being exposed without weapons or shields within the weapons range of the Supremacy is... no one in the First Order pushing those buttons.

    Which is why, subjectively, I regard the evacuation plan as badly plotted out-of-universe for its in-universe narrative obligations, thus rendering its narratively important "superiority" deeply suspect. The only reason the evacuation plan has a chance of surviving is because of the First Order making multiple counter-intuitive and illogical lapses in application of their technology. Aside from the numerous issues with the Space Chase set-up, where the First Order is demonstrated in film to have the capacity to use hyperdrive and their overwhelming Starfighter advantage to end the chase early but for some reason doesn't, the First Order has every reals. In the world to think the Resistance is probably going to evacuate to Crait, and to keep their decloaking scan working at regualr intervals:

    - The Space Chase has been going on for 18 hours, in something at least very approximate to a straight line, a line which just so *happens* to intersect a habitable planet. IN THE VASTNESS OF SPACE. By an application of even *simple* 2-dimensional analytical thinking applying even just Earth's own oceans for comparison, there is a high probability of the First Order suspecting very strongly an evactuation to Crait. In fact, I'd argue that the same simple analytical thinking would single out "evacuating to Crait" as probably the only reason for the Raddus's O take the course it's been on. So, fundamentally, the only reason the evacuation can be a surprise (which is the key to its practically and increased likelihood of success) is if the First Order is somehow so stupid they miss the stupidly obvious.
    - There's simply no good reason why the FO wouldn't be running decloaking scans all the time. Aside from the questionable efficacy of cloaking systems the film doesn't establish a visual component to (which might suggest the evacuation plan might fall to the technological creation called "a window and a telescope"), the Supremacy is depicted as a city-sized combination capital, warship, and shipyard. Your average, run of the mill capital ship, both in our universe and theirs, is going to have extremely hi-tech sensors working to circumvent enemy obfuscation and stealth. On a ship as vast as the Supremacy, featuring sophisticated tech capable of tracking through hyperspace, a "decloaking scan" that takes only a few minutes to run would be simple side-duties for officers in decks 99-135, or whatever. The simplicity of the decloaking scan as a handwave for compromising the evacuation plan is, if anything, too simple for its narrative purpose.

    Subjectively, in my opinion, while the film and the directing want the evacuation plan to be the more practical plan with a higher rate of success, the actual context of the film paints it as simply inferior and downright dangerous compared to Rose's plan, with only an exagerrated incompetence on the part of the First Order preventing it from being suicidally useless.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  6. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2002
    I see no reason for it not to have worked. Unfortunately putting a trash can on BB8 as a disguise wasn't the smartest move. That drew attention to the group and the plan failed. If they hadn't have been caught, then it would have worked. The only hurdle then would have been convincing Holdo.....
     
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  7. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    In the criticism thread i took some heat for sharing that I felt the Finn/Rose/DJ/BB8/Poe plot actually had some advantages head-to-head with the Han/Leia/Lando/Chewie/C3PO plot in Empire. The single biggest thing I was aiming for with that is this thread’s very purpose. I liked that the setup for what they were trying to do was positioned as something that would save everyone and that it was risky and took guts for a known traitor like Finn to go back behind enemy lines. There are some other aspects I like beyond that but that was the biggest one.
     
  8. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Nobody’s going to push those buttons unless there’s a good reason too. Without DJ, the First Order would have had no way of knowing that the Resistance was evacuating right then and to be on the lookout.


    Except, you know, the explicitely stated fact that Crait is an uncharted world. Not only does that First Order probably not know it’s even there, they know nothing about it. Why on Earth would the First Order assume that the Resistance would abandon the safety of their capital ship for an almost completely unknown rock of a planet?

    Because it’s a waste of time, power, and personnel to constantly run a specialized function that will, 99% of the time, reveal nothing. It’s not a difficult question to answer.

    So, you’re still not giving any good reason why the trio's plan is even remotely safer than Leia and Holdo's.
     
  9. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    To the Bolded: Well, again, the First Order should assume something's up because in the VAST, INCOMPREHENSIBLE EMPTINESS OF SPACE, the Resistamce has still been heading straight towards this planet for 18 hours straight. It may be uncharted, but people have sensors, scopes, and eyes. It's possible that Star Wars operates with sensors and scope that don't read surface-survivability, like in Star Trek, but at least some guesstimation could immediately tell you that Crait is a solid world planet of operable gravity size, and since our own technology is capable of detecting harmful atmospheres, it follows the First Order could as well. You see someone you're chasing in a setting defined by the near-total exclusion of anything, and their heading towards someplace they could stop that you can see approaching for hours on end, you're going to assume some kind of possible reason for their direction. *Especially* if you've been operating under the presumption the chase will end when your quarry runs out of fuel; I didn't mention that earlier because it felt like perhaps cheating, but if you include that factoid, than almost any other course of action outside of evacuating to the planet becomes highly improbable.

    To the Italicized: On a ship that literally is the size of a city, capable of building or repairing full-scale Star Destroyers, and equipped with groundbreaking software and hardware capable of tracking enemy ships through Faster-Than-Light travel across an entire Galaxy... the comparative resources expended in running a decloaking scan can't be significant. The size of the Supremacy alone implies the cleaning staff must be a veritable army of janitors, so unless the decloaking scan is somehow technology on par with the Hyperspace Tracker, we're looking at something that could easily fit a computer application, or some low ranking desk-jocky's daily duties. And even if it is some kind of Hyperspace Tracking-level tech, we'd have to presume they'd treat it with the same reference, and probably have a system in which it was periodically activated.

    And on top of both these points, it bears mentioning that, ultimately, the world that Johnson is writing in TLJ is one wherein only a droid noticing the dumbest of disguises sinks the plan. It doesn't seem like Johnson is particularly focusing on sophisticated and complex world building in this scenario. And incidentally, on a purely subjective level, given the other logical and characterization problems in the Space Chase and its associated subplots, I'm simply not inclined to give Johnson the benefit of the doubt in regards to his "evacuation plan is superior to infiltration plan" argument. That's strictly a subjective reaction and a matter of priorities in yours and mine interpretations of the film, but I feel it's justified in my case.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  10. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    For all we know, the Resistance and First Order could have passed dozens of remote worlds and systems during the pursuit. As far as the First Order knows, Crait is just another remote, uninhabited, inhospitable rock in the middle of nowhere. They have no reason to believe that the Resistance would leave the safety of their capital ship for it. Considering that the planet is uncharted, they probably didn't even know that the Resistance was heading in its general direction. They probably reasonably assumed they were just passing by it.

    Except that they had enough fuel to at least pass by the planet, as shown by Holdo's line "For the plan to work, someone needs to stay behind and pilot the ship".

    You're assuming it's cost-efficient to run this technology 24/7 despite being given no indication that is the case. Just because the First Order has lots of resources doesn't mean they'll flush their resources down the toilet.

    So you're complaining that a plan so flawed that it could be sunk be the dumbest little thing was sunk by the dumbest little thing? I think this is more you refusing to admit that this plan was that flawed in the first place.
     
  11. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Holdo’s initial plan is to pass right past Crait with the Raddus as the transports slip through undetected at the distance they are at with the impression perhaps of continuing toward
    Sallust or Malastare. Two planets with actual populations and resources of value to a Resistence Capital ship and a history of New Republic alliances and or sympathy. Crait is barren and its rebel base wasn’t known.

    It’s true that it would have been impossible for them to reach either without a jump and that a jump would have emptied them but it’s potentially also true that the FO was fine hanging back and waiting and watching and trying to discover more info because if Sallust and/or Malastare had secretly joined the fight then they’d have more to consider. I would have enjoyed a line of dialogue about that possibility personally but both planets are on the route they’re on. I would have liked a FO style board room briefing to be honest so that Johnson could have laid out more logistics and had things answered to help all fans suspend more disbelief by feeling like more things had been considered and decided upon.

    Sitting back and watching and hoping the Resistance are just running for the sake of survival and being in a position to strike if need be or make adjustments if some new development occurs related to support doesn’t seem that crazy to me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  12. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Not quite; the Rose plan is still fundamentally very risky. I'm arguing:

    - That Johnson may have inadvertently painted what should be the dramatic risk (the personnel in this paranoid fascist state) as blindingly incompetent by instead using the cute little merchandise-able fascist robot, lessening the perceived risk that way; it reads (to me, as a critic of the film) as though if Finn and co. did anything less than settle for a trash bin on top of a loud BB-8, they get away with it. My issue here is compounded by Johnson's parodic treatment of FO personnel in the deleted scene with Tom Hardy; it strikes me as further reinforcement that under Johnson's pen in TLJ, the First Order is full of lumbering incompetents, thus lowering the threat of discovery by them. And...
    - Again, my issue isn't so much with the portrayal of Rose's plan as being highly risky, it's that I believe the alternative evacuation plan is even *riskier,* only being even remotely sneaky because of the aforementioned stupidity TLJ has the FO suffer from. A stupidity that I can't see past, especially for the sake of what I fundamentally believe is a botched deconstructive arc. To me, the evacuation plan is one that can only exist in TLJ, because the characters and militaries of the other films in the Saga have a competence that would render it laughable.

    Like, fundamentally, I, as a critic of the film, will not let go of the idea that the FO should see Crait as a likely evacuation destination; the chase is taking place in space, where even a tiny degree change in the coordinates you are using could take you past a *every single planet in existence.* In part because I don't like the Last Jedi, I'm not going to be forgiving in evaluating the possible apologetics-like explanation for the manuver; I'm naturally going to swing towards the flaws in every offered up explanation.

    To me, the simple fact that they've been heading towards this planet that must be spottable by the naked eye for 18 hours means that any logical mind is going to consider the possibility of the Resistance taking shelter there, especially because we're in a sci-if franchise where the people being chased have a habit of setting up bases on barren planets. To me, a ship the size of the Supremacy must carry a complement of personnel so large and be so valuable as a political headquarters that any kind of "scan" that can be done in a few seconds is going to be done periodically, possibly just to give Assisstant To The Assistant Chief Gunnery Officer Junior Ensign Gotz Nuthintwodo *something* to do.

    And to me, the only reason both facts are going to be ignored and swept away in the movie is because the plot requires them, and because an overworked creator in Rian Johnson took enough narrative shortcuts that he wound up with a Galaxy smaller than it was in previous films, featuring villains laughably incompetent compared to previous entires in the GFFA, and contradictory and self-defeating military decisions governed not by serious critical thinking and military philosophy, but by the dictates of swerving the audience at all costs, ala Vince Russo in WCW.

    It's all totally, 100% subjective opinion, and not in any way objective fact. But it's a supported opinion, and I still find my arguments sound, so it's not changing right now.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  13. scuiggefest

    scuiggefest Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2002
    @godisawesome :
    "The Space Chase has been going on for 18 hours, in something at least very approximate to a straight line, a line which just so *happens* tointersect a habitable planet."

    Is there a specific reason you think they flew a straight line? Hux was told that the rebel ships were able to stay out of range because they're much smaller and lighter. I can see how that would keep them ahead if they were constantly making unpredictable turns. If they were flying a straight line, I would think the first order would have caught up, using their much larger engines
     
  14. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    SUB-HYPERSPACE LOGISTICS

    • A starship's sub-light engines are going to continue to accelerate the ship. That's how vessels, or any object that is propelled by a powered source will behave in the vacuum of space. You will continue to accelerate until you run out of fuel, are impacted by gravity or collide with something else of significance.

    • The Rebel ships had more thrust and were therefore accelerating at a rate faster than the FO’s. When the Rebel ships run out of fuel various components related to how their ships propel stop operating leading to some minor axis shifts at most but the vessels themselves continue to travel with the same inertia they reached the moment their engines stopped.

    • However, without the engines they will no longer actually be accelerating within the vacuum of space. The FO ships, still with their engines at full capacity will actually be accelerating. Therefore they'll catch them and be within range to inflict damage.

    • Visually, on diagrams and maps, this will make it appear as though the Resistance ships have stopped but that’s not the case. The diagram on the Supremacy is tracking the distance relationship between both fleets from the side so it’s misleading and gives the impression that the ships entering the FO’s optimal damage range have died like cars on the side of a road and completely stopped when it’s more that the First Order ships have just accelerated toward objects that are also moving but are now holding at a constant speed.

    • The Resistance got the jump on them, achieved a "safe" distance, which was growing and because it was growing and because they were confident in their knowledge of how the FO’s passive radar system worked they had a work-around that they believed “cloaked” them from that detection and that they were visually at a distance where they wouldn’t be able to see such small shuttles at 500km or more from each other.
    WHY THE FIRST ORDER WOULDN’T GAIN FROM HYPERSPACE

    • My answer to that involves a Mario Kart analogy of all things. The biggest reason is the sheer distance travelled in even a second of light speed travel once the hyperspace engines kick in. Even a second of hyperspace from the Star blur to the “blue portal” jumps you approximately 299,792km due to the actual speed of hyperspace.

    • If the object you're tracking is operating at a distance closer to 500km away (and based on what we know of the size of the Supremacy if the visuals provided are in any way to scale that’s a decent guess) and the Resistance’s Raddus ship is only slowly gaining on the Supremacy then hyperspace is overkill and sets you further away than where you were.

    • To borrow a Mario Kart analogy it would be like wanting to shoot a green shell at your friend who's directly ahead of you and using the bullet. The bullet is going to send you all the way past him and to the front. Further to the notion of "jumping in front of them" is that there really isn't a front in space. It's true that they were ultimately headed toward Crait but they could have been heading in any number of directions so jumping 299,792km ahead of the direction they're heading via 1 second of hyperspace could have just lead them to go up or down to some other location and then it's the same sub light speed chase where they're slightly faster and constantly gaining
     
  15. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    To your query, I believe that since the shortest distance between two points is a straight line: whether the Resistance is maintaining a higher speed, higher acceleration, or has achieved distance with acceleration before holding steady at a speed the First Order matches, turning or otherwise maneuvering opens up the possibility of the First Order closing the gap. And, just for arguments sake, if the Resistance is manuvering, it's not shown at all in the film, and if they were making significant maneuvers, or ones that were simply evasive, then ending up at Crait would still be deeply suspicious; "We've been pursuing these guys for 18 hours, with them juking and jinxing, and now we're suddenly next to a planet? We better keep an eye on these guys."

    @Ender_and_Bean and I have had discussions along this line before; you can see their summary of their argument above this post. Suffice to say that for me, personally, it's still inadequate. To me, the simple material advantage of the Supremacy, and the ease with which the Libertine and Falcon enter the chase (and the Falcon's previous use of pinpoint hyperspace jumps in TFA), effectively means that the First Order by all rights *should* use hyperspace. Johnson has given them an absolutely ridiculous logistical advantage at the start of the chase, probably as a visual technique to heighten the tension: they have 30 Star Destroyers in pursuit alongside the Supremacy according to Wookiepedia, and the film just showed Kylo destroying the entirety of the Resistance Starfighter Fleet. The First Order is quite capable by these rules established in TLJ and in TFA of deploying Star Destroyers to various "cut-off coordinates" around and in front of the Raddus; any manuver the Raddus makes can be easily countered by another Star Destroyer, and even a hyperspace jump would simply drain the Raddus reserves well before the First Order would run out of Star Destroyers. The First Order even has the logistical advantage of being able to replenish its own supplies, because TLJ has insisted in pushing for near complete Galactic Domination at an absurdly fast rate, and thus multiplied the resources the First Order has.

    And as to the actually pretty decent motivational reason @Ender_and_Bean has for them not cutting off the Raddus (a complete confidence that the Raddus will run out of fuel anyways, and thus the First Order would be better off adopting a siege style strategy), well, he and I have discussed why that doesn't work for me. The first is that, with the Starfighter Corps of the Resistance dead, I believe simple Starfighter and bomber runs could destroy the Raddus with logistically infinitesimal losses on the side of the First Order, let alone in concert with a capital ship; unless somehow *all* the capital ships we've seen that need Starfighter screens were secretly always capable of wiping out whole squadrons on their own without trouble, then simple overwhelming TIE Fighter numbers will overcome and neutralize whatever anti-bomber defense the Raddus has and proceed to destroy the ship. The second is the Hyperspace Jump; if the manuver was always as easy to execute as TLJ shows it is, than any sane commander would seek to end space engagements as quickly as possible, lest a cornered opponent do the manuver and annihilate as much material as the Raddus does. Ender_and_Bean had a decent post detailing how he believes that the Raddus's charge was somehow a once in a lifetime alignment of variables that would have otherwise rendered the tactic impossible, but I feel the hypothetical answer still inadequately addresses the simple problem that, as shown in TLJ, the Hyperspace Ram is simply too massively effective and easy to initiate.

    On a certain level, I simply doubt the internal logic of every little improbability that sets up the Space Chase as any kind of long term pursuit, so again we're dealing with my bias possibly making me heedless of counter arguments, though I like to think I address them as much as I can and use logic in my own arguments.

    My evaluation is that pretty much everything in the Space Chase subplot relies on so many improbabilities and narrative conveniences that it's impossible for me to sustain my suspension of disbelief, and all for a story that I personally regard as too underwritten to achieve its goals with its characters, especially the protagonist which the film doesn't do justice to (Finn.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  16. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    One of my criticisms of TLJ is that I feel a briefing scene on behalf of the FO would have had the potential to iron out many of the most common issues with the space chase.

    A one minute briefing scene where they laid out the trajectory they are on toward Sallust, Malastare, & Crait and their opinion that they may be looking to a jump to a location where allies from those more occupied worlds may join them means hanging back and observing is the wiser play. That they know they will get them no matter what. That their spies are gathering intel as we speak on whether Sallust or Malastare intend to join the fight. Have someone ask why they don’t just send out the Ties to do more damage and citing the failure to do so on the Dreadnought. Have Hux take that question as a direct threat to him and remind him of the costs of ties and then have the person asking sarcastically ask how much a dreadnought costs. Then show Hux’a rage and have that person demoted for insubordination and carried out of he briefing by security. “Any other questions?”

    A little scene like that would have done wonders. If he’d allowed some common questions to be asked by others in that session and answered it would have helped more people suspend disbelief.

    In short, he tried to do what he did in Looper with the straws comments where he had both men hand wave away the absurdity of the specifics of time travel and loops and how they’d be there all day with straws out. That decision to avoid the specifics was actually celebrated by film critics as a strength of Johnson and how he had a command of what logistics the average person wanted and did not for these kinds of experiences. I remember reading Looper reviews that cited that moment as a sign of his understanding of potential general audiences & that the conflict and character moments were always bigger than the specifics or technobabble. I think he thought he had crafted something similar with Snoke’s confident approval following Hux’s declaration that they’re tied to a string but Johnson didn’t pull that off this time. Especially within our fandom. Our fandom wants more info than that. Always has. Always will. Star Wars fans crave details and want to know why other choices weren’t made all of the time. We then share these issues with others who hadn’t really analyzed it as much and were suspending disbelief fine. Johnson learned all of this the hard way.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
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  17. scuiggefest

    scuiggefest Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2002
    The main reason I think it might not have worked is because the movie doesn't really establish (imo) that Rose actually knows anything about hyperspace tracking. One moment she has no idea the FO can track them through lightspeed, and the next moment she's confidently asserting that the principle must be the same as any active tracker. And the next moment, she and Poe and Finn are coming up with a longshot plan based on her intuitive leap. My interpretation is that they were acting out of sheer desperation, rather than actually having any good reason to believe Rose was correct.