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CT Would the rebels still win without Luke?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by NakkyGraphics, Feb 15, 2016.

  1. Warren Moonwalker

    Warren Moonwalker Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2015
    if they lost at yavin, they would have been at an extreme disadvantage so i highly doubt it. luke was instrumental in the whole thing. it was a family affair
     
  2. redlightning

    redlightning Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 1, 2014

    Tarkin already wanted her executed before Vader had a chance to use the probe again. She was going to be dead after lying about Tatooine.
     
  3. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007

    You mean Dantooine, right? And yes, Tarkin might have executed Leia. But in that case, the stolen plans would never make their way back to the Rebel Alliance. The Death Star would never have been destroyed.
     
  4. redlightning

    redlightning Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 1, 2014

    This all depends on if Obi-Wan and Luke leave Tatooine with the droids. R2-D2 knows the location of the Rebel base. All it takes is to have him get transport to the Yavin instead of Alderaan. If this happens, the Alliance can get the technical readouts of the battle station to destroy it.
     
  5. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    There's no evidence that R2-D2 knew the location of the Rebel base.
     
  6. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    In the OT, there is no such thing as "without Luke". Doc Brown in Back to the Future would have said it defies space-time-continuum or something. It's a "butterfly effect" kind of situation. Without Luke Obi-Wan would not be on Tatooine in the first place. He was sent there to watch over him, remember? Without Obi-Wan being on Tatooine Leia wouldn't have detoured there either. Who knows, Owen Lars without his nephew might have sold the farm and retired to Mos Eisley for all we know. The story's outcome only works with all the elements the way they were. If we took even a seemingly small element out of the equation (Greedo, the informant in Mos Eisley, the guy in the Cantina that told Obi-Wan about Chewie...) the outcome could have been radically different. But Luke is the key element in the OT. How about the PT's story development without Anakin? Simply not possible.
     
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  7. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    I don't think that's what the OP meant, I believe the scenario here is, what if Luke wasn't with the Rebels at Yavin. For whatever reason, he never makes it there. Perhaps the Tuskens kill him before Obi-Wan arrives, or Ponda Baba shoots Luke before Obi-Wan intervenes.


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  8. EntechednReformatted

    EntechednReformatted Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2009

    I think you're asking about Endor. Luke was actually the key to the Empire's defeat at Endor, but not necessarily in the way everyone thinks. Remember, it was Luke who was able to secure the assistance of the Ewoks. He tells Han not to start shooting when they're first caught, and he is also the one who gets them out of being cooked. No Luke, no partnership with the Ewoks. The Death Star shield stays up. The Rebel fleet is annihilated.

    I find it very interesting that, although Luke doesn't know it, by the time he surrenders to Vader, he's already set in motion the Rebel victory simply by trusting his instincts about the Ewoks and obeying the subtle promptings of the Force. In the end, this is the greatest power of the Jedi.
     
  9. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Still, Luke somehow not making it to Yavin would kind of destroy the whole story of ANH. The whole point of Luke being the main character, his whole reason for existence in the first place, was his mission to help/save the Rebels. What other purpose does his character fulfill if not that? Of course we can speculate all we want what might have happened if Luke didn't fly that attack on the DS. But then it would not be SW but a whole different story. Had Luke not hit the target the DS would have destroyed Yavin IV a few seconds later, end of the rebellion, game over. All the rebel leaders that we know of were on that moon at the time. They would have been gone. Luke and Han might still be alive in their respective ships, but at least Luke would probably not have gotten far. Did he even know how to use the X-Wing's hyperdrive? Did he have enough fuel? We don't know. In any case I doubt he could have started a new rebellion by himself, or even with Han's and Wedge's help. Leia was really the rebellion's central figure, at least by what we see in the OT. Would Bail have found other help? Possibly sooner or later. But then the whole story would have developed very very differently. So... there would have been no OT as we know it.
    In any case, I don't get all those "what if" threads. If we changed anything in the story we have then there would be millions of possible alternative stories, none of them being SW. In fact we could do that with any movie or book. But... what's the point?[face_thinking]
     
  10. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Sith Lord 2015

    Well, General Willard, commander of the Rebel forces, who greeted Leia and company upon their arrival on Yavin IV was neither seen in the war room or the medal ceremony at the end, thus probability is high that him and some other top brass officers were actually evacuated pior to the Death Star's arrival.
     
  11. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Not impossible technically but to me it would seem odd that the rebels had evacuated a general while leaving Leia and the rest of the fighters behind on Yavin ready to be destroyed. During the medal ceremony he could possibly have been hidden behind Chewbacca or others:
    [​IMG]
    Nowhere in the movie is there the slightest suggestion that there is another rebel base somewhere and that important officials were evacuated there. And then why not evacuate Leia as well?
     
  12. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Sith Lord 2015

    No he is not hidden behind Chewie (I researched the issue thoroughly), we just have Dodonna, Ristt ("Hudsol") and the other guy in his *cough* archeological coat plus other officers present.

    Indeed, there is no suggestion of another Rebel facility (according to the animated cartoon of the Holiday Special the Rebels used an asteroid as a base of operations, following ANH) or evacuation of key personnel, but it appears to have been the logical course of action to evacuate most of the non-essential personnel.

    According to the 1977 Lucas Notes Alderaan was a gatherer of information in the Alliance and Leia obviously one of the information carriers. But I'd say that with the destruction of Alderaan and the dissolution of the Imperial Senate she had practically lost her value.

    Besides, she brought the Death Star to Yavin IV and therefore everybody, and rightfully so, expected her to stay which she did. Furthermore, in the ANH radio drama she is the one suggesting to make a stand.
     
  13. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Sidious didn't consider the Rebellion to be a threat until he found out about Luke. He didn't believe that the Alliance had the Force. He actually appreciated them rebelling against him, since he could use them as an excuse to force the galaxy to get used to martial law. But when he sensed Luke, he considered the Rebel Alliance a threat. He believed that, since Luke had used the Force to hurl that torpedo into the Death Star reactor, Luke could become a very serious threat as a Jedi. He wanted him dead or turned Sith.

    But pretty much everyone here agrees that Luke's action of destroying the Death Star rallied more people to the Rebel cause. Now, Lt. Hija, let's not forget that Leia helped gather many soldiers to the Rebel Alliance. While Bail and Mon Mothma were the parents of the Rebellion, Leia helped it to grow before the Battle of Yavin.
     
  14. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    SateleNovelist11

    According to the 1977 Lucas Notes Lucas had Leia say (in a fake aftermath interview style) that Alderaan gathered the crucial information, while other systems provided the military resources.

    And in ANH we only see Leia as such gatherer of information. We saw that she could handle blasters and rifles, and I'm pretty certain that the pilot helmet Luke was wearing during the Battle of Yavin was actually hers, but - strictly from a technical point of view - after the destruction of Alderaan she had lost her usefulness to the Alliance as a gatherer of information. Officially she had died along with the Tantive IV and couldn't show her face anymore in public circles outside the Alliance.

    In ESB she was essentially an assistant for General Rieekan and only took over command after Rieekan's death (according to the draft from October 1978).

    Same in ROJ, were she didn't have a vital role other than to accompany Luke and Han to Endor.
     
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  15. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I'm not disputing that. But as a fan, I can subjectively interpret an archetypal character as I please. I see her as a strong woman, and I'm sure you would agree. I haven't read much of the EU stories between ANH and TESB, unless we're talking about someone like, say, Lumiya. I guess I like to let my imagination fill in the gaps.

    But I agree. She was basically the general's assistant in TESB, and she was "General Solo's" assistant in ROTJ. But the Alliance still respected her, since she was a good motivator and instructor, as we saw with her brief speech to the soldiers in TESB. They clearly valued her, since Han told the higher-ups that he would get her out on the Falcon when they were evacuating the base. Technically speaking, it's probably because she was Bail's daughter. Leia had lost her family and her homeworld, and the Alliance became her life. I wish that concept was explored in greater depth. I suppose I sound like some fans who wish that Leia had gotten more to do and contemplate during the Yuuzhan Vong War. But that's how some of us feel.

    Anyway, I like it when you and Iron Lord dig up old drafts and ideas that are harder to find. Good research! My personal favorite role Leia had in any story was the Dark Empire trilogy. As to the films, I wish we got to see more inside her mind. We're getting a bit more of that in TFA, as we did in some EU novels. I just feel the OT is much more about Luke and Han than it is about Leia. Maybe Lucas didn't know how to write her, and maybe Kasdan was better at it? If so, no surprise...given how we saw Lucas mishandle Padme.

    As to the original topic, we all agree that Luke was pivotal in the destruction of the Death Star I. In TESB, he saved some escaping Rebel soldiers from death by destroying the AT-AT. Commander Skywalker may not have won every battle for them, but he did keep more Rebels alive. The more the Empire killed, the weaker the Rebellion would have become. Luke was the hero who could keep the army from not being totally destroyed on the battlefield, and I doubt he was the only one who did that, of course. But he did have the Force and his brain to aid him. The Empire was essentially fighting a war to destroy the Rebels. They were all about destroying the Alliance. They didn't care if they destroyed their own resources or civilians as they obliterated these "terrorists." Emperor Sidious Palpatine and his governors and grand admirals all believed they were fighting a rebellion that could be crushed in a year. It turns it that it took four years in the films, but in the EU, it took far longer.
     
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  16. black_saber

    black_saber Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2002
    The only victory the rebels won without Luke which is coming up in Star Wars rogue one movie when they first stole the death star plans, but did they have a chance to destroy the first Death without Luke, 1 and a Million chance.
     
  17. Darth Formidious

    Darth Formidious Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    The most important individual in the Rebellion is Leia. Without her, none of this would've been possible. Whether they could have done it without Luke; it seems improbable. Unless someone else was able to destroy the Death Star.
     
  18. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 7, 2015
    No. The original Death Star would've never been destroyed if it wasn't for Luke. At least that's what I think.
     
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  19. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    I think I should disagree. Imagine this: Luke would have dropped Kenobi (and Artoo) off at Anchorhead, Kenobi would have secured passage to Alderaan, gotten with Solo and Chewie aboard the Death Star, Solo and Chewie would have gotten the princess, Kenobi would have switched off the tractor beam and postponed his encounter with Darth Vader.

    In the end it would have been General Kenobi to destroy the Death Star. :D
     
  20. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    Han & Chewie wouldn't have gone out of their way for Leia. It was Luke's idea to rescue her, and he had to persuade/bribe Han to go along with his plan.
     
  21. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    But already in the cantina Kenobi was making the calls. Frankly, I was amazed how easily Luke was able to persuade Han to rescue the princess. Had that been Kenobi I'm sure Solo would have followed his lead instantly, provided the price was right.
     
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Problem is - Kenobi rushed off to shut down the tractor beam before Artoo did any further searching of the Death Star's databanks beyond locating the tractor beam shutdown points.

    I can't see it being all that different in a similar story that didn't have Luke in the group.
     
  23. Afro1256

    Afro1256 Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Mar 21, 2015
    Luke is critical at all stages which is the issue. Without Luke in a new hope the alliance fails to get the death star plans and will probably lose after Leia is executed.

    In Empire Strikes back Leia and Chewie might be okay escaping, but Luke's presence probably helped a lot.

    Return of the Jedi - He is vital in rescuing Han from Jabba. Without him there's a good chance you'd of ended up with Han and Chewie being fed to the Rancorn or Sarlaac whilst Leia would be left alone as Jabbas pet human.

    Later on Luke is necessary for Vader to be redeemed and kill the Emperor and remove his force influence over his fleet.

    The big thing is that Leia could replace him, if Luke never existed she might of had a life that was different that would protect
    her until she could become a Jedi in her own right.
     
  24. SageOfRage

    SageOfRage Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2016
    not a chance. death star would've never been destroyed for starters..... vader would've never been able to kill the emperor either
     
  25. Chewies_bandolier

    Chewies_bandolier Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 5, 2002
    Lets see .. if we disregard ANH (where we all agree that without Luke, the DS plans/ Artoo would've ended up possibly not reaching Kenobi and the DS would in any case, not have been destroyed prior to blowing up Yavin IV) .. what did Luke accomplish in ESB? Well .. arguably, the Rebels got their assses comprehensively kicked during the ground assault on Hoth, so though Luke did contribute to downing a couple of Walkers .. well .. his absence would've have made much of a difference, based on what is seen in the film. In ROTJ, when he finally joins the Rebellion once more .. his absence would have resulted in Vader not being able to sense him on the Tydirium so.. maybe the Rebels would've had a better chance of infiltrating the shield generator THOUGH .. lets see... the whole operation (with the stolen plans AND the double agent Bothan spies) was orchestrated by Palpatine SO no difference from that side. The Rebels would've still been captured (and arguably, Leia's presence would've been felt by Vader since well.. FS daughter and all).

    So we get to the Ewoks - Leia managed to befriend them and the success of bringing down the shield generator was largely due to their involvement BUT the crucial factor (especially for Han) was that Luke was able to produce his "magic trick" and convince the Ewoks to help them soo..

    without Luke:
    - no C-3PO deity anger
    - no Han
    - no Ewoks

    leading to
    - no successful attack on the shield generator
    - no successful attack on anything to do with the DS (since it would've still be very well protected)
    = end of Rebel fleet once that "fully operational" DS starting shooting everything in sight

    It did of course, help the galaxy immeasurably that Luke was able to convince his pops to throw Sheev down the exhaust pipe. ;)