Would You Save The Life Of A Helpless Tyrant? (General)

Brother and Sister Warriors:

I am currently conducting a collection of results from the Japanese and Australian threads to see what how the people of each culture would react in Anakin's situation.

Picture yourself running into a room, witnessing an old man whom you know to be evil, assailing a Good Warrior with waves of potent demonic lightning, and yet is losing the struggle. Exhausted and weakened, he relents his sorcery, then proceeds to helplessly cry and begs for his life, even as the Good Warrior raises his blade to strike him into hell.

Now picture yourself not as Anakin, but as a perfect stranger who is nevertheless a patriot, and one who walks the path of the warrior.

I for one would have done the EXACT same thing that Anakin did.

No matter how evil a person may be, no matter how heinous his crimes, striking down a helpless old man begging for his life is an act of murder, nay, butchery that renouncees the ties to humanity of the person performing it.

As a warrior, I would NEVER suffer a defenseless person being murdered before my very eyes if I can ever help it.

How about you?

 

First of all Ani was not saving Palps for honourable reasons.
Second, if you believed Palps when he was whining about how
weak and defenseless he was then I got a nice piece of swamp
property you may wanna buy
I would have let Mace do what needed to be done and obviously
it was needed b/c look at what transpired after that and years
later.

Ask someone if they would have seized an opportunity to kill
Hitler before he murdered tons of people and see what they say.

 

Umm... no. If the good warrior was known to be a good warrior, and not the type who would kill needlessly, I would have no hesitation in watching Mr. Evil Dictator/ Tyrant die.

And to be specific, any sensible Jedi other than Anakin would have done so also. Because Mr. Evil Dictator/Palpatine in an evil murderer, and as such, should be put down, simply because there is no way of punishing him because he was in control of the law.

 

What, so if the 'victim' was Hitler, Bin Laden or Manasseh and you'd defend them ??

Think again.

 

Palpatine murdered several Jedi right in front of Mace Windu and had his apprentices try/murder other Jedi as well.

Mace went there to arrest him originally, then Palpatine attacked.

Anakin was being selfish and greedy and wanted everything NOW. He thought the only way to save Padme was to learn some dark secrets from Palpatine.

Anakin betrayed those that could have and started to fullfill his dreams.

And by your comments in the original question, I have to question if you know what a true "warrior" is all about.

 

Would You Save The Life Of A Helpless Tyrant?

It takes years to be a tyrant. At that particular point, Palps was a popular, duly elected official.

 

And by your comments in the original question, I have to question if you know what a true "warrior" is all about.

There is really no need to make comments personal in here. Just discuss the topic.

voodoo is right, Palpatine was viewed as a popular, elected official and Mace WAS going to kill him which was NOT the Jedi way, regardless of Anakin's feelings. If I was Anakin, I'd be having a hard time remembering when Mace had ever proved to me he was a good person, it certainly wasn't in how he treated Anakin. In fact, it was the opposite. If I had been treated with respect and warmth by the old man, and the Jedi warrior who put me down constantly and never said a nice word, was arrogant and was doing something against what he preaches, I'd probably step in, too. You have to remember that Lucas is setting the Dark Side and Light Side up to be ambigious in Anakin's mind there for a bit. It's like arguing against right and wrong in global politics today, it's all relative. Anakin's dark deeds start when he decides to accept the darkness after saving Palaptine.

 

"I takes years to be a tyrant."
lol that's just funny.

"At that particular point, Palps was a popular, duly elected oficial."

um no, at that pt with the Jedi council he was [by admission]
a Sith Lord and responsible for corruption and his apprentice
killed QGJ. He was only going to be arrested, he is the one
who attacked and killed 3 Jedi, that just made him an even
bigger threat that needed to be eliminated. His ties to the
council would make it impossible to handle him any other way.

 

That doesn't make killing him right as he was unarmed, which was George's point with this scene all along. It was wrong when Anakin did it to Dooku and it was wrong when Mace tried to do it to Palpatine. The Jedi had gone down the wrong path, too. This is why Mace parrots Palpatine with his "he's too dangerous to be left alive."

 

I don't understand this. So it's not about right or wrong, but about how nice he is to you?

You just found out this "nice old man" was a Sith Lord who has been lying to you since you knew; yet this Jedi has been brutally honest for as long as you've known him, but you'll choose the liar?

No it's not, Dooku was, literally, defenseless. He had nothing on Anakin and Anakin cut his head off. Palpatine was the Sith Master and he was faking his weakness, not only that; but he would've killed Mace, as is shown, without hesitation the second he got the chance. He was wielding that power; as Anakin himself saw the moment he betrayed Mace, Palpatine suddenly erupts in laughter and fries him while throwing him out the window.

Dooku wasn't in the same position, Anakin didn't even try to arrest him. Mace did, and he was ultimately doing what Anakin does in RotJ; was Anakin going down the wrong path? Should he have thrown Palpatine on the floor and try to subdue him instead of down the reactor core?

Anakin, at the end of the movie; is in the same position as Dooku is - and Obi Wan doesn't kill him. That's the ultimate paralell between the Dooku situation; Palpatine was in a different boat alltogether.

- O_F

 

On the surface it appears the scene with Palps/Mace and
Ani/Dooku are the same, but they're not entirely.
Comparing the 2 is like comparing Hitler to one of his
lackey camp guards.

Mace knew/felt he had to take Palps out or the results would
be terrible [he was right] and was prompted/validated even
more when he saw his 3 fellow Jedi fall, Palps try to fry
him & Palps faking it for Ani trying to manipulate him into
saving his life which would mean turning against Mace.

Ani stood there with indecision about killing Dooku and only
did so at the urging of Palps - puppet master & puppet.
In Ani's mind he bested Dooku, he was no threat anymore.
He didn't just see Dooku slay 3 Jedi, try to fry him
with lightning then whine like a wounded dog in an obvious
display of trickery.

 

I don't know the way of the Sith, but I sure know Dooku didn't beg for his life. He was even more defenseless than Palpatine. Palpatine knew he had lost and could do nothing but beg. Mace kind of lost it for himself by making Palpatine beg. As you said hewas an old man begging for his life. And Anakin being the loyal person he was only worsened the matter. Palpatine knew if he plead his case to Anakin he would give in to anger. And that is what he did. He was behind the entire war. Behind the blockade of Naboo. Behind the deaths of hundreds of Jedi. Yeah, Mace had the right to slaughter him. Palpatine begging only added to Maces' reason. Palpatine should've taken death like Dooku did, with honor. Dooku wasn't going to succumb to begging like a baby. Palpatine lost, just as Mace said. And everybody says Anakin was whiny in AOTC.

 

"And Anakin being the loyal person he was"

If Ani was loyal he would have followed Jedi orders
and stayed behind at the temple when Mace went after Palps.

 

Read Revenge Of The Sith novelization. Then you will understand. Obi Wan claimed Anakin to be the most loyal man he had ever met. He befriended Palpatine. He couldn't just allow him to be killed. It would've been like watching his grandpa be massacred. That was part of his conflict, he was trying to make to many people happy. Their was to much weight on his shoulders to do the right thing. Anakin had to choose between saving his wife or his " friends " I would like to see someone try and decide that without conflict. Plus, He didn't know Palpatine was going to screw him over by not knowing the power to save his wife. Remember, Anakin was young, he was naive. We are not talking about Obi Wan here. We know he would've seen past the lie Palpatine was feeding him.

 

Obi-Wan was wrong. That's one of the reasons he aplogizes for
"I've failed you, Anakin" - he knows he didn't even see any of this
coming. It all happened right under his nose and he had no clue
just how mistrusting and deceitful Ani was.

 

Anakin created that entire conflict. The only reason that entire scenario even exists is because Anakin is a selfish control freak; he aided in brutal murder of a Jedi Master. Not to save his wife, but to save a Sith Lord. Who could then help him save his wife. It's a cop-out to say "i'd like to see you choose", it would be like a psychic telling you your wife was possibly going to die, and you had to betray and murder all your friends (not to mention innocent children/people) to save her.

No sane man would even think twice about making a choice, but Anakin did. Nobody put a saber to her throat, no - Anakin had a dream.

- O_F

 

Anakin's fault exactly.
Obi frans is a genioius.
I mean seriouisly, everyone has bad dreams once in a while.
But most people aren't force connected...

 

He had been put in a terrible conflict. Choosing between your spouse and your friends is not like choosing between vallina or chocolate ice cream. Do remember, Anakin was young, he was NAIVE. We all know Obi Wan would've seen through the lie that Palpatine was feeding Anakin.

 

aww poor poor Anakin *tears* - Gimme a break! lol
Ani was an adult who allowed himself to be a Sith's
puppet b/c he had a bad dream and was afraid it would
come true. So, he tossed away his whole life with very
little consideration, he murdered - no, slaughtered is a
better word for what he did to the younglings. He betrayed
his father figure and best friend without any remorse.
He attacked his wife who he was on a rampage to supposedly
protect. He wanted to rule the galaxy and became intoxicated
with his own power and what Palps had promised to him.

The Jedi allowed him to be trained b/c Obi-Wan forced the
issue, if he hadn't Ani would be back on the first ship to
Tatooine before suppertime. They knew Obi would not give
up on the issue b/c he promised QGJ. They also knew Ani
had to be watched carefully, hence the notion of mistrust.

Ani made his own bed by his own means and he deserved what he got.

Yes, people feel sorry for him b/c he's a pure waste of potential.
I prefer to say pity more than sympathy.

 

Trying? He IS the bad guy, Darth Vader? - Dark Lord of the Sith? Traitor? Childkiller? Backstabber? Coldblooded murderer?

No.He.Didn't.

He didn't have to choose at all, he could've just remained where he was (Council Chamber); Mace would've killed Palpatine, balance would've been brought. Padme would've had children etc etc. He chose, but he didn't have to. The only reason he does choose is because he forces himself to.

Blame the council for what? Trusting him? Should i blame Shmi now too for wanting him to be free? Should we blame the force for birthing Anakin at all?

No, Anakin is the only one who can be held responsible for his actions. He's a grown man who can make his own decisions, and he messed up. It's, to me, FAR more tragic that he messed up on his own - instead of laying blame on the shoulders of others. What next, blame Hitlers parents for World War II? Blame Mussolini's teachers for what he did? Blame God for the Devil?

- O_F

 

How does Anakin know he's a tyrant at this point? The scene is SUPPOSED to focus on Anakin's weakness, hence his "I can't live without her." But if you didn't get that Mace wasn't a "helpless Jedi Master" doing the wrong thing by killing a man in cold blood, then you missed part of the point. That and the fact that a less-arrogant Jedi like Obi-Wan would have taken Anakin with him. It's par for the course for Mace though, his bad decisions, arrogance and behavior had been leading the Jedi down the wrong path for quite a while. He just made sure he messed it up right by going to the Chancellor the way he did, and it was perfect the way George showed us that the Jedi had a hand in their own demise. Even Obi-Wan was beginning to see this. They might have behooved to listen to him when he explained Anakin to them. Of course, as usual, Mace knows best. That's why he's goo on the street on Coruscant.

 

O_F, I think we're alone here hehe.

 

You just don't like Mace , let's face it. The only reason he's goo on the street is because Anakins a traitor. Obi-Wan trusted Anakin, true. But Anakin completely betrayed his trust, his and Padme's and Shmi's and Qui-Gons and anyones. If Mace was wrong about everything, then at least he was right about not trusting Anakin And he was right about not taking him, since he beat Palpatine on his own.....and he was right about the plot to destroy the Jedi, since Order 66 was right around the corner....and he was right about Anakin being too old to join the order, since he never matured...Shall i go on?

- O_F

 

Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it's pretty clear what George is setting up with Mace's behavior. He exemplified the arrogance of the Jedi. He was the arrogance of the Jedi in human form, even Yoda warns him that his thoughts are dangerous and taking them "to a dark place" when he says the Jedi would have to take over the Senate. (What?!?)

He was totally wrong to not take Anakin with him. Anyone who knows Anakin knows that if Anakin were fighting WITH Mace, he'd be loyal. Mace put him on the outside yet again. What does Mace do to ever earn Anakin's trust? Name me ONE instance that he is civil to Anakin and makes him feel valued, please. Like Anakin, Mace made his prophecy self-fufilling (and as Yoda), they didn't trust him and kept him at arms length while Palpatine (the smarter of the three) figured out that gaining Anakin's loyalty was as easy as treating him like a human being. Anakin is loyal to people, as Obi-Wan tried to explain to them. It doesn't matter though, the Force gave them twenty years in exile to figure this out. They did their homework and worked their way through summer school, though. So it all ended well.

 

It wouldn't matter if Mace included him or not.
Ani's motivation for saving Palps had nothing to do
with the Jedi, it had to do with Padme and that situation
would not have changed no matter what Mace did or didn't do.
Ani wanted Palps alive and near so he could find out what this
supposed power is so he could save Padme, no one was going
to derail Ani from his agenda.