Saga Yoda was wrong about a lot of things...

If you think about it he really was. Either that or he just told luke the bare minimum.

Firstly he was convinced that vader could not be redeemed and that once you were a sith you could not be redeemed. Vader was redeemed

Second he was not the first. Those who know the old Republic era know that revan came back as a jedi. How he didn't know that about a prominent old Republic sith is beyond me. Surely he knew that the order had jedi that walked a gray line and that revan came back?

I'm not sure yoda knew as much about the force as he let on. Maybe he only had to tell luke the basics. I don't know.

 

As a kid I was wondering why Yoda was being so mean to Luke. Luke did everything asked of him. He did complain and doubt, but who wouldn't? Yoda was both wrong about Vader and Luke. He did not want to train Luke because of Anakin; which of course was not Luke's fault. I think Yoda was very stubborn and prideful. Don't get me wrong I really like Yoda. Another strange thing is if Leia is the "other" and in danger of dying wouldn't he want Luke to try and save her? Granted Luke needed more time to train but did they really have time? He should have told Luke about Vader.

 

Yes yoda does say if you honor what they fight for then yes in relation to han and leia in cloud city. He was willing to sacrifice another potential jedi in leia. Leia who may have been even stronger then luke. Think about that. Was leia not as important as luke?

 

If the latter is a possibility, how is he wrong?

Even if he did believe Vader could not be redeemed, that doesn't sound like "a lot of things". Sounds like one thing.

Also, Yoda (and his creator) wouldn't know about characters and events that were created later and outside of their 'reality'.

Yoda is pretty consistenly right and on point throughout the movies. And that's on purpose.

 

Yoda is wrong when he says how the darkside will forever dominate your destiny which is not just referring to vader its referring to the force and if luke gives in to the darkside that's pretty much it for him.

Plus all yoda really talks about after he reveals to luke that he is yoda is the force so the two main elements in relation to luke are wrong. You are not forever a sith and anakin could be redeemed.

 

How is he wrong that the darkside will forever dominate someone's destiny?
It doesn't mean that you couldn't possibly reject it, just that your destiny is dominated by it. Seeing how Anakin eventually got killed by the lightning of the Emperor, that wasn't really wrong.

He also never states that Anakin couldn't be redeemed. The only thing he says about him is that Luke needs to confront him to become a Jedi. Note the word confront, not beat, kill or anything like that. Only Luke brings up that he couldn't possibly kill his own father while talking to Obi Wan. To which Obi Wan replies that the Emperor will have won if that is the case. But even that isn't a statement which suggests that Luke actually needs to kill Vader, just that Luke needs to be prepared to accept all possible outcomes.

 

You're repeating the same single point, which is the opposite of "a lot of things". The dark side does consume whoever chooses to follow it. He's warning Luke about the dangers of the dark side and the reality of Darth Vader (at the time). That if he gives into the dark side, he will become like Darth Vader. Which is a reality materialized when he goes into the cave.

Yoda talks about a lot of things, and Luke learns from him. When he goes against Yoda's teachings, he fails. When he learns, accepts and matures as an individual, he succeedes.

 

I get it that luke rushed off to deal with vader and he simply wasn't prepared. Both yoda and obi wan tried to stop him but lukes concern for his friends overrides common sense. He simply wasn't ready for the revelation of who vader was to him.

Yoda has a very black and white view of the force when indeed there is a lot of gray areas. We've seen throughout the saga both in film and in eu material that force users have dabbled in the darkside or using the force for dark purposes and yet didn't become a sith. I'm thinking rey in the ST when she ends up using force lightning and jaina in the old EU who also uses force lightning in the book dark journey if I'm remembering right. Jedi throughout the history of the order walked a fine line and with the exception of hard core sith like sidious and maul and others jedi could remain on the right park even if they used the force for the wrong reasons.

Look I love yoda. I still laugh at his antics in empire but he didn't know everything about the force.

 

It had nothing to do with the revelation. It had to do with being reckless and acting on fear and attachment, which Luke shouldn't have done since it goes directly against the Jedi way. Fortunately, Luke survived and ended up learning from that mistake.

Anakin made the same mistake Luke did, except in his case he ended up executing a massacre against the Tusken Raiders and fuel his fear, attachment and greed.

The Force has a light and dark side. The fact that Yoda acknowledges that reality and explains it is not a flaw, because it's how things are. There is a right and wrong. There is good and evil. Gray is when you can't tell the difference, which is bad in and on itself. It's the path Sidious took the convert Anakin and bring the Force out of balance, leaving it in darkness.

And Anakin didn't just "dabble" with the dark side. He flat out fell and gave himself up to the Sith. He commited atrocities to prove his allegiance.

He knew more about it than virtually any other character.

 

He did as the order was gone. I suppose it all depends on a certain pov lol

I get the defence of yoda I do. A legendary character but I still think he didn't know everything about the force and I don't believe anyone did.

 

Yoda was arrogant as Palpatine pointed out. Perhaps not a people person either lol. But his mastery of the Force is unquestioned.

 

For daring to face Sidious, the master of arrogance? Because that's what Sidious was referring to when he said Yoda was blinded by arrogance.

 

He arrogance had blinded him. For thinking he was such a master of the Force and he did not see what was happening right in front of him. Lucas himself has said the Jedi became arrogant.

 

I agree.

 

I have to disagree with the definition of "confront" you use. Both Ben and Yoda were convinced that Ani was gone and Vader was all that was left. They hadn't been able to keep him on the Light Side when there was still a chance. They made it clear Vader was a servant of evil, and that he and Palpatine were dragging the whole galaxy into the abyss of the Dark Side. Based on that, I doubt they had any faith in redemption. They were at war, and you stop an enemy in wartime by killing him. I don't believe they figured Luke could beat them up, then say, "Okay, you've had enough. I win, and you have to go away forever."
Fortunately, Luke had a better idea. Not serving evil, and not rejecting his connection to Ani and killing him. Instead, he puts aside a different attachment: to himself. He's prepared to die, if it means showing Ani the futility of following the Dark Side. And that's the lesson Ani follows, and the good guys win as a result.

 

Totally agree. This is a big error in regarding vader and redemption. This is ultimately the biggest story beat of the trilogy. Can anakin skywalker be saved or is he destined to akways be darth vader.? Yoda and obi wan were wrong. A sons love for for his father saved him. A really beautiful sentiment.

 

I always kind of saw ROTJ as a nice parallel to western civilization growing out of the Eye for an Eye philosophy to a more love-based Golden Rule philosophy. Palpatine, of course, does not represent a human, but "the devil", so to speak (affirmed by Lucas) or, more secularly put, temptation personified. This becomes more apparent in the ST.

 

The future is always in motion. Luke didn't change anything by going to cloud city except starting to reignite Anakin's light side. But he didnt rescue Han and Leai escaped thanks to Lando. They suffered because Vader wanted to find and capture Luke. So by Luke going their suffering was for nothing.

Yoda gave Luke a warning about the dark side. Nothing more. He didn't want him to fall to the dark side like his father.

But i will say that yoda and obi wan took a big gamble by not telling Luke that Vader was his father. Like they didnt learn from their mistakes. Lying and keeping Anakin in the dark helped lead to his fall. Luke could have easily felt betrayed like anakin did and turned on the Jedi. They're lucky he didn't have a girlfriend who might die at the time.

 

I disagree on Luke accomplishing nothing by going to Cloud City. He, to borrow a Hawkeye Pierce line, screwed up in reverse.
He was too late to help Han, who at least was out of Vader's hands when he was carted off by Boba Fett. But by going to Bespin, he opened the way for the others to be saved. Once Luke arrived, they meant nothing to Vader, who was using them as bait. He just had them taken away so he could focus on Luke. That gave Lando the opportunity to stage an escape. Had Luke not gone, it's a pretty safe bet that, at some point, Palpatine would've told Vader to cut his losses and move on. Thus, Leia & Chewie get spaced for treason, and Threepio gets melted down.
Also, Luke, in fighting and losing, gets a needed dose of humility, and a lesson in just what it takes to face Vader and, maybe, save the day. Plus, in learning the truth that Kenobi & Yoda had hidden, Luke starts to understand the real truth about his father, and that he needed to be redeemed, not defeated. That's what brought victory, in the end.

 

Well i agree, i said he helped begin to bring Anakin back to the light side by going and confronting him. So he accomplished that and return of the jedi may have had a different outcome if he still didn't know Vader was his father. But i think Leai and the others would have escaped regardless. Lando knew he'd been screwed so he was going to turn on the Empire and run no matter what. Even if they weren't leading Luke into a trap i dont think Vader would have assigned himself to prisoner transfer duty to prevent their escape.

 

These are all excellent points. It's why I sort of hate Yoda's cameo in 'TLJ' because Yoda is being a total hypocrite there.

 

In what way?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Indeed. During the exile Yoda had to live with shame and regret.

 

The story of Revan being restored as a Jedi is Legends. And Revan did not redeem himself. His memory was erased, and the Jedi council gave him a new identity. Revan has no story in canon other than having a division of the Sith Eternal Army named after him.

Prior to Vader, no Sith had been redeemed, so there is no reason to assume Vader would be any different.

Luke was trained to be a Jedi. Maybe there wasn't enough time to fully delve into the Jedi dogma and give him the extensive training that Jedi received in the prequels, but to say Yoda was holding out on giving Luke his full breadth of knowledge is not accurate. Yoda knows more about the Force than any Jedi. The only thing Yoda and Obi-Wan held back was Luke's lineage, and that was because they believed if they came right out and told Luke about his father, they would lose Luke to the Dark side.

 

As we don't know revans story in the new Canon it could be that he returned from being a sith. Yes his memories were erased and he was left with basic memories of a dark place with a lot of rain which was dromuund kaas and not exegol or even korriban but he could have. Obi wan was more convinced thst he was more a machine then a man while it is yoda who felt anakin couldn't be saved.

But they were wrong. That's the point. All three would have failures weighing them down long term. Vader was obi wan failure, failure to see who palpatine was and not being able to defeat him was yoda and Ben solo was lukes.