Yoda's place in the Jedi order's history

Back when there was only the OT, I literally thought Yoda was the wisest, greatest Jedi master that ever lived. A powerful being who truly understood the power of peace, the futility of war, and had an unrivalled connection with the Force. His scenes with Luke in ESB are still the stuff of greatness, 25 years later.

Unfortunately, the PT has shown Yoda to be rather different. Specifically, RotS shows him up in an extremely unflattering light.

1. He starts RotS still not knowing that Palpatine = Sidious. Why not? It's been 13 years since the Sith emerged!
2. He gives empty advise to a troubled Anakin - not doing a bit of good. Does he even suspect Anakin is married? It doesn't seem so.
3. He goes off to Kashyyyk, when he could have sent another Jedi master - Shaak-Ti, Tinn, Kolar, etc. He leaves the Temple at a time when they strongly suspect that the Sith have a stronghold on the Senate. He is saved by the Wookiees.
4. He comes back to Coruscant and arrogantly goes off to face Palpatine alone. Why didn't he take Obi-Wan with him? Too much faith in his own ability. He is beaten, and saved from death by Organa.
5. He has been communicating with Qui-Gon. Why did he keep this knowledge to himself for the last 3 years? Why didn't he immediately tell others - and learn more about this ability ASAP? Do some research into the Whills? Why keep it all to himself and not do anything with it?
6. He decides to retire to Dagobah in the end. Why? Could he not achieve the same thing on Alderaan? Or Tatooine? Or any number of places, where he could have continued learning how to retain identity and done some good?

During the 3 years of the Clone Wars, Yoda has been tacitly supporting war and aggression for an order whose mandate was to maintain peace. He has been utterly fooled by Palpatine and fell neatly into his trap of Order 66, which finally destroyed the Jedi. For 13 years, his former padawan has been a Sith Lord, and he couldn't do anything about it.

With all this, the hundreds-of-years-old Yoda seems to be a poor shadow of what I once thought him to be. It now makes sense that he was a broken-down old being who retired to Dagobah in shame. And that he is forgotten by Sidious and Vader in the OT.

Did the PT change anyone else's views on Yoda? I do see a lot of people still saying that Yoda is the greatest ever Jedi. I wonder, why?

 

i think you're right, but the teachings of qui-gon may be the reason he's so much different in the OT.

 

I think Yoda's flaws give the fall of the jedi more credibility. If he was ultimate then Palpatine would never had succeeded.

But is this all Yoda's fault. i dont think so.

Ok, he's rigid. But how whould he know that he needed to change the order. Once he did realise the truth he manages to escape and save the Jedi order.

Only Yoda was able to contact Qui Gon. if he didnt do that then Obi Wan couldnt have helped luke in the OT and the jedi's influence would be finished.

Yoda puts up a bloody good battle against Sids but is outwitted. But Yoda is the one on the offensive and palpatine has all the advantages.

I will always see Yoda as the definitive Jedi. All the jedi made mistakes - even qui gon. But in the end its Yoda that is the light. he is the ultimate jedi. he has the most knowledge of the force. When hearing the spoilers about yoda originally i thought as you did - it demeans his character. however, i believe it adds to it now and fleshes him out. It makes him more real.

In the end I think Yoda is the ultimate Jedi - he just didnt play the ultimate part - that was for Anakin and Luke. but without Yoda the Jedi wouldn't exist and the Empire would have ruled forever.

 

"He gives empty advise to a troubled Anakin - not doing a bit of good. Does he even suspect Anakin is married? It doesn't seem so"

just because anakin fails to see the wisdom behind yoda's words, doesnt mean it was empty advice.

 

Yoda is not God he is the Highest Ranking Member on the Jedi Council ... He is like the Dad of all the Jedi .. He is upsett when he arrives on Geonosis and when he sees the younglings are dead ....

 

1. Harder to see, the dark side is.

2. He's a Jedi Master, not babysitter, poor Ani.
Why would he suspect Ani got married. I don't think anyone expected Ani to be so secretive and underhanded.

3. He's a take charge kinda guy

4. Maybe he didn't want to risk anyone else's life. Maybe he knew the chances of him failing were great.

5. Maybe he didn't want this knowledge to be abused or fall into the wrong hands. You should not teach others in a subject if you do not fully understand it yourself.

6. B/c Dagobah has the cave with the presence of the darkside. Some theorize he chose it b/c the cave would mask anyone from sensing he is there and he had to live b/c of the twins. I think he knew someday he would need to pass on what he knew to Luke.

 

Yoda travels to dagobah for multiple reasons. First of all he knows that the dark side is very strong there, thus his powers can easily be hidden. That's why the emperor and others never sensed him during the purge. It's a bit like the sith in Coruscant. The jedi temple is there and there are always many jedi present, that's why they can easily hide in the shadows, because the light side overwhelms the place. He also needed time to meditate to know the Force better. He also had to preserve himself ( for the training of Luke ), and the best way is to stay out of public. And there are many imperial spies everywhere ( like the garindan on Tatooine ), and tales of selfless deeds of good spread quickly. There are many other reasons to be found. Maybe he blamed himself the most for not seeing the truth. Who knows?

Sorry for spelling errors if there are any

 

1. He starts RotS still not knowing that Palpatine = Sidious. Why not? It's been 13 years since the Sith emerged!
The dark side clouds everything. Yoda and Mace know that Palpatine is in some way connected to the Dark Lord. They assume their relationship is much like Nute Gunray's to Sidious.

2. He gives empty advise to a troubled Anakin - not doing a bit of good. Does he even suspect Anakin is married? It doesn't seem so.
The only people that know that Anakin is married are the people closest to him: Palpatine and Obi-Wan. Anakin doesn't know that he secret is not safe. Apparently, Yoda does not have a close relationship with Anakin as he does with other Jedi. Probably because he did not train him as a young boy.

3. He goes off to Kashyyyk, when he could have sent another Jedi master - Shaak-Ti, Tinn, Kolar, etc. He leaves the Temple at a time when they strongly suspect that the Sith have a stronghold on the Senate. He is saved by the Wookiees.
Agreed, pretty bad idea.

4. He comes back to Coruscant and arrogantly goes off to face Palpatine alone. Why didn't he take Obi-Wan with him? Too much faith in his own ability. He is beaten, and saved from death by Organa.
Underestamation of Sidious was a fault of everyone that met him. Except Luke. Even Yoda had no idea what was to come from the Dark Lord of the Sith. This seems logical even from the oldest, wisest Jedi.

5. He has been communicating with Qui-Gon. Why did he keep this knowledge to himself for the last 3 years? Why didn't he immediately tell others - and learn more about this ability ASAP? Do some research into the Whills? Why keep it all to himself and not do anything with it?
Only the wisest, most focused Jedi could communicate with the dead. Qui-Gon chose Yoda. Mace, Obi-Wan, Plo Koon, and Ki-Adi Mundi, etc. had nothing to do with the issue of Qui-Gon because he does not speak to them.

6. He decides to retire to Dagobah in the end. Why? Could he not achieve the same thing on Alderaan? Or Tatooine? Or any number of places, where he could have continued learning how to retain identity and done some good?
Yoda had to remain in seclusion so that he could train himself without interference. This was the smartest thing he did in PT. If he was on Alderaan, the Empire would have him killed as soon as they found him. Yoda needed time. Patience was something he learned to appreciate from Sidious.

 

In the end I think Yoda is the ultimate Jedi - he just didnt play the ultimate part - that was for Anakin and Luke. but without Yoda the Jedi wouldn't exist and the Empire would have ruled forever.

I am happy for you that you still think of Yoda as the ultimate Jedi! In my own estimation, Yoda has fallen down the ranks pretty badly due to the PT. I honestly don't see him doing ANYTHING too great in the PT so far. And certainly not in RotS. Even the Jedi spirit thing is not his contribution - it was Qui-Gon's. Yoda, 800+ years old, had not researched the Whills or knew how to disappear.

I also completely doubt that the Empire would have ruled forever without him. If he had died in RotS, Qui-Gon would have somehow contacted Obi-Wan, which he apparently does on Tatooine. And Luke would have helped Anakin defeat the Emperor as it actually happens.

just because anakin fails to see the wisdom behind yoda's words, doesnt mean it was empty advice.

That is true. "Empty" is not the right word. The right word is "ineffective". Anakin is very powerful, the Chosen One, and he is troubled. Shouldn't Yoda have been a little more concerned about what was troubling him so deeply? Anakin goes to him because he thinks Yoda is wise. But is Yoda truly wise in the advice that he gives Anakin? And he gives pretty much the same advice years later to Luke, who again defies him to go off and try to "save" his friends!

 

Yoda admits his own failings

"too rigid, too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi I trained to become Jedi who had trained me, long centuries ago - but those acient Jedi, of different time they were. Changed the galaxy. Changed, the Order did not - because let it change, I did not"

Infinite knowledge of the force requires infinite time.....

 

Um... Yoda going to Dagobah because of its unique "dark side" cave is really EU stuff. from the script it seems he simply retires to Dagobah to learn more.

But.... if Obi-Wan had not asked Luke to seek him out, would Yoda have ANY role to play at all in the OT? Or if Luke had been killed by the Tuskens.And Leia terminated by Tarkin? That was the problem of sitting on Dagobah.

 

Yoda's place in Jedi history is cemented. He was the most powerful jedi for around 800 years, thats not something to be taken lightly.

 

ah, but was it not the will of the force that brought Luke to Yoda unharmed ?

 

We don't know that he was the most powerful Jedi for 800 years. What is the source? What do we know of Jedi before TPM started?

His place in the order's hostory is cemented indeed! It was during his watch that the Jedi order, which had stood for so long, became practically extinct.

 

Read The Novel for ROTS and you will see that Yoda Finds out the Sith Have Changed while The Jedi Stayed the Same and He begins to wonder if He can Beat The Dark Lord

 

Every charcater is part of the complex cosmic design. Yoda plays one of the biggest roles. Full stop.

Plus he's cool. Need we say anymore?

Ok then:

he's a 2ft frogling who is the master jedi, who is the joint ultimate force user, who is sick with a lightsaber, who gets sidious on the run, who speaks backwards, who is 'man' enough to admit his mistakes, who is the first to contact the after life, who trains luke whom saves vader. Anymore?!

Who patiently lives on a slimy mud hole for twenty odd years.

 

sorry have i missed something. the orifinal post states that sidious was yodas former padawan.Is this the case?

 

The dark side clouds everything. Yoda and Mace know that Palpatine is in some way connected to the Dark Lord. They assume their relationship is much like Nute Gunray's to Sidious.

That is what I expect of an ordinary Jedi - not the head of the order - not 13 years after the Sith first reemerged.

The only people that know that Anakin is married are the people closest to him: Palpatine and Obi-Wan. Anakin doesn't know that he secret is not safe. Apparently, Yoda does not have a close relationship with Anakin as he does with other Jedi. Probably because he did not train him as a young boy.

Why didn't Yoda make it a point to find out more about Anakin, become closer to him, offer him training and advice? Why was he dismissive of the Chosen One and the Jedi with the most potential in the Temple?

Underestamation of Sidious was a fault of everyone that met him. Except Luke. Even Yoda had no idea what was to come from the Dark Lord of the Sith. This seems logical even from the oldest, wisest Jedi.

Well, that proves my point that the oldest wisest Jedi was perhaps one of the most arrogant! Especially when he now knows that Mace and his posse were defeated by Sidious. Even Mace was more careful in taking three others with him!

Only the wisest, most focused Jedi could communicate with the dead. Qui-Gon chose Yoda. Mace, Obi-Wan, Plo Koon, and Ki-Adi Mundi, etc. had nothing to do with the issue of Qui-Gon because he does not speak to them.

You missed my point. Once Qui-Gon "chooses" Yoda and speaks to him, why didn't Yoda let others know that Qui-Gon had spoken to him? Did he distrust other Jedi so much? Yoda certainly is all eager to tell Obi-Wan before retiring to Dagobah. After which presumably, Qui-Gon "chooses" to speak with obi-Wan also. So, why didn't he tell others and give THEM a chance to find out more in the last three years?

Yoda had to remain in seclusion so that he could train himself without interference. This was the smartest thing he did in PT. If he was on Alderaan, the Empire would have him killed as soon as they found him. Yoda needed time. Patience was something he learned to appreciate from Sidious.

But all his "knowledge" would have been wasted if Obi-Wan had not sent Luke to him. Or Luke and Leia had been killed or fallen to the Dark Side or whatever. And Obi-Wan did manage to learn just as Yoda did, plus he looked after Luke on Tatooine. Also, unlike Obi-Wan, Yoda didn't really play an active role after he died, just joined the end party on Endor.

 

"That is true. "Empty" is not the right word. The right word is "ineffective". Anakin is very powerful, the Chosen One, and he is troubled. Shouldn't Yoda have been a little more concerned about what was troubling him so deeply? Anakin goes to him because he thinks Yoda is wise. But is Yoda truly wise in the advice that he gives Anakin? And he gives pretty much the same advice years later to Luke, who again defies him to go off and try to "save" his friends!"


i think you may have just incriminated yourself. thats the point, he gives anakin and luke, essentially the same, sage advice, and in both instances, the boy runs off recklessly

"told you did i, reckless is he"

why did he say that? because he saw history repeating itself. the trouble isnt really in the advice, the problem lies in the recipient. luke was wrong to abandon his training to try and save his friends. heck, he nearly lost his life because of this reckless decision.

the "advice" sequence is meant to show that anakin isnt hearing what he wants from the jedi. they arent telling him he can have everything he wants, hence why he abandons the order and becomes a sith.

 

I think Yoda is going to go down as a biggee, but not as much as a biggee as we thought during the OT.

We see that he is pretty inflexible, and plays by the old rules; and gets dusted by the Emperor/Sidious. He does live to help train Luke, but Luke pretty much learns alot on his own.

 

Yoda is definitely flawed. But that's the beauty of Star Wars, especially the PT... its heroes are all flawed, which probably explains why people can latch onto the story so strongly. Yoda is a parallel of the Jedi Order itself. For over 800 years Yoda was the "perfect" Jedi. For most of its known existance, since the Sith War, the Jedi Order protected a peaceful Republic. But then they grew arrogant, blindly set in their ways, and the Sith beat them. But during 20 years of isolation, Yoda and Obi-Wan both come to understand what went wrong and, through Luke, help to bring about a new Jedi Order.

 

I do agree

 

All great hero's are flawed, but that's what makes them great. Their able to pick themselves up off the canvas, in spite of their shortcomings, and still achieve the seemingly impossible.

 

1. The Dark side clouded his vision.
2. Thats the advice you give to the regular Jedi, and he would cope with it using Yoda's help. But he didn't know the darkside trobles and the marriage.
3. He went there to get away from courasant because he knew that this was when the Sith would make their move. and they wouldn;t make it while he was there. So he wanted to lure them out so he left.
4. Read the ROTS novel he couldn't go with Obi. The way he did was the smartest. Also he wasn't saved like by dying. He really was even.
5. He didn't know for the last 3 years he figured it out in those mintes he was meditation on Polis Massa with Bail comming in and saying Obi wan made contact.
6. The Sith would have deteced him and killed hoim sending all; the troops. He was showing smartmness by going to Dagobah.


So no Yoda was very smart in all his actions.

 

1. Will of the Force-Yoda does what a Jedi should and doesn't force his will upon the Force-that's a Sith thing. Yoda lets the Force run the show-it's faith in a higher power than himself. And ultimately he's shown to be right. You can "what if" all you like, but guess what? What if doesn't apply to what actually happened.

2. That's because he didn't have anything left to do-"No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need". Notice that Ben appears and gives his last lesson of ROTJ to Luke right after Yoda does, and then you don't see either of them until the story is finished.

3. Obi-Wan volunteered to take Luke to Tattooine, to keep an eye on him. *Plus* it's a place where Luke can easily be placed on the path to his destiny.

Yes, Yoda wouldn't have had much to do if Obi-Wan had survived the Death Star. But clearly, the Force wasn't done with him yet.