The Clone Wars does not fit with the PT

I was watching Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith today and noticed something that peeves me about TCW: The characters personalties don not fit with what is presented in the movies. Here's a list:

1. Anakin is a brash, arrogant young Jedi who is jealous of Obi-Wan but loves him and his wife, Padme dearly. In the show, he is with his Padawan most of the time. The Jedi Council from Episode III would never give Anakin, who is 19 years old at the time a Padawan. He is also too good in the Clone Wars and I could never see him turn to the Dark Side.
2. Obi-Wan from the movies is wise and a powerful Jedi. He is also a quick thinker, beating three powerhouses in duels with this technique. In the Clone Wars he has never won a duel except versus Opress.
3. Padme is never shown with Anakin in the show. I always thought they were close together most of the war, except for the final 5 months, but Anakin and Ashoka seem to be dating.
4. Sidious should never have dueled Maul and Opress, it is something he would never do as a movie character. I always thought the Windu fight was his first real fight, a technique he had perhaps discovered in Holocrons.
5. Yoda should have only seen action in AOTC, Yoda: Dark Rendevonus, and ROTS.
6. Mace Windu seems to trust Anakin in the show. He almost hates him in ROTS.
7. Count Dooku is totally different in TCW. Why is he such a devious character. He smiled, taunts, and has a certain charm to him in the movies, in TCW not so much. Watch ROTS to see what I'm saying, and picture it as a TCW episode. You'll be surprised that these are the same character. He duels Anakin three times, contradictary to the movies. And what is up with his head?
8. Grievous has defeated 1 Jedi in TCW, has faced a 13-year-old padawan twice and hasn't won. He has met Anakin quite a few times, and has faced Kenobi. How did he defeat Four Masters before ROTS?
9. Asajj Ventress, although not in the movies, is the best EU character in this time period. And what do they do to this fearsome apprentice. Have her be unable to beat a 13-year old Padawan, Kill no Jedi, get betrayed by Dooku, and have her become a Bounty Hunter who gets her lightsabers stolen. (No!)
10. Nute Gunray and the Separatist Council, where are they.
The above is my opinion on this topic. Watch ROTS and try to picture it as the last Clone Wars epidode. Discuss.

 

I absolutely agree. You have made your point.
TCW does not fit in with the movies, you are quite correct about that.
TCW does not fit in with the EU either, so... Where does it fit in?

 

I get the impression you really didn't watch the show that much:

1. Anakin is brash, and arrogant (as portrayed in the show), and at times reckless. Anakin's jealousy of Obi-Wan is really only hinted at in AOTC, and that comes across more as being an arrogant pouting youth who feels his master is holding him back. In the opening of ROTS there's none of that. In fact the only suspicion Anakin even begins to have of Obi-Wan is following conversations with Palpatine who plants seeds of doubt in Anakin's head.

As for the Jedi Council, sure they would have given Anakin a Padawan, you are confusing the reasons for their objection to Anakin being on the Council. They were specifically objecting to Palpatine's interference with Jedi business.

Finally, I'm not sure what show you are watching specifically. There are plenty of hints laid out throughout the show that all is not well with Anakin. In season one he almost Force chokes Nute Gunray to death, shows hints of rage over Padme's dealing with Senator Clovis. He almost loses it multiple times during the Slaves of the Republic arc, turns briefly to the Dark Side in the Mortis trilogy and has a very difficult time controlling himself whenever Ahsoka is in danger.

2. So actually holding his own against both Opress and Maul doesn't count. The only duel he's really gotten his butt kicked in was with Darts D'Nar, and even that was more of a delaying action as he was buying time for Anakin and Ahsoka to take care of diffusing bombs.

3. They were shown together quite often in seasons 1 and 2, but the focus of the show has shifted.

4. Why would he never have fought Maul and Opress? They had become the proverbial fly in the ointment and could have created an unnecessary obstacle to Sideous' plans. Again, I'm not sure why you would assume Sideous had never really battled anyone before his confrontation with Mace.

5. Why? Again is there some rule preventing the most powerful Jedi in the Order from getting involved in conflicts?

6. Huh? Windu has been very suspicious of Anakin throughout the show, heck in the final arc of Season 5 he borders on forbidding Anakin for looking for his Padawan.

7. Dooku has frequently been shown engaging in duplicitous behavior. He essentially trains his own "apprentice" sending her off to do the dirty works, then betrays her after Sideous questions Dooku's motives for training her... then Dooku has the audacity to replace her with another "apprentice" despite Sideous' warnings. Oh, and let's also not forget that following a couple of failures, Doku reveals General Grievous' secret hideaway to the Jedi, almost ending with Grievous' capture.

8. Grievous has never faced Anakin in combat on the show, and the two times he has faced Ahsoka she's done nothing but engage in evasive maneuvers to escape from him. Most of the time he is confined to the bridge of his ship, or is involved in boarding engagements or larger battles with numerous soldiers (Nightsisters battle).

9. Yes! I'm much more interested in the character path Lucas and Filoni laid out for her rather than make her the generic Dark Jedi/Sith wanna-be apprentice of the week that seems to dominate a lot of EU.

10. They are around and you see them from time to time... But I'm not sure getting super deep into politics and economics on a kids adventure show is exactly the best way to go.


Yancy

 

1. I disagree with point 1--a lot of people in real life do things that they wouldn't fit their personality due to various circumstances... Friends would say I never thought s/he would be the type to do whatever, etc. in real life all the time. Anakin was under a lot of stress due to his vision of Padme's death in ROTS and did things he wouldn't consider during TCW when he was not under such circumstances. And TCW Anakin isn't the mature angel a lot of people keep claiming him to be... I just watched the episode "Friends and Enemies" where Anakin attacks Obi-Wan Kenobi's supposed killer in a rage--at least in AOTC and ROTS he bothers to tell himself "revenge isn't the jedi way"...

2. Movie Obi-Wan also lost to Dooku really quickly both times, even with Anakin's help in ROTS.

6. Perhaps the whole situation with Ahsoka's trial (and seeing Anakin protest against the Council) dropped Windu's trust of Anakin considerably... He knows now Anakin will side with his friends (Chancellor, Ahsoka) over the Council.

7. Anakin fighting Dooku every other week in TCW does hurt ROTS a lot. Chancellor Palpatine says in ROTS "Get help, you're no match for him, he's a Sith Lord."
Kenobi: "Chancellor Palpatine, Sith Lords are our specialty. Besides Anakin fought Dooku more times than he's had lunch."
Anakin: "Why are you suddenly worried now? We escaped fine all those other times in TCW."

8. Grievous hasn't met Anakin face to face, except *maybe* possibly a quick glance at an unconscious Anakin in "Shadow Warrior". I do agree Grievous is a major contradiction though... He tells Obi-Wan that he was trained by Dooku in ROTS as if it were the first time he were facing him, yet Obi-Wan fights Grievous all the time in TCW and Grievous should know Obi-Wan would have deduced who trained him by ROTS. Also, it makes less sense for the Council to send Obi-Wan alone after Grievous in ROTS (considering Kenobi had all those chances to beat him and never did during TCW).

10. It does seem like half the Separatist Council is imprisoned by the Republic during TCW.

 

Because creatively most people don't want to see Attack Of The Clones played out for 5 seasons. One film of that was enough. It's just a cartoon- not film. Even in the film series there's continuity problems. Oh well.

 

While the show is meant to fit in with everything, it was obviously an opportunity to improve some of the weaker elements. Anakin was a major change from how he was depicted in the movies. He was more like someone Padme could like, and expressed the conflict within him a lot better.

 

TCW shows the worst portrayal of Anakin and Padme's marriage imo.

 

Somewhere with the Holiday Special...in other words Star Wars hall of shame

 

I don't think the OP has the best points that can be made for the case. Honestly, half the list just seems like random complaints. Almost everything on the list lacks any necessary contradiction at all. Just because something rubs you the wrong way doesn't make it a contradiction. You may think, "Yoda should have only seen action in AOTC, Yoda: Dark Rendevonus, and ROTS," but that doesn't make it something that "[does] not fit with what is presented in the movies." One of the points of supposed contradiction on the list is about a character who never appears or is mentioned in any Star Wars film.

There's also a number of inaccurate statements about what's happened on the show on the list. Anakin has had dark side moments in Brain Invaders, Kidnapped, Slaves of the Republic, Friends and Enemies, and Sabotage. Mace Windu starts out trusting Anakin for the most part in early seasons, but is obviously much more wary of him in their S4 and S5 interactions. Darth Tyranus' and Anakin Skywalker's dialogue in Ep. III only refers to the "last" time they met, there is zero reference to it having been on Geonosis or any specific number of total duels they've had, none of their duels in TCW contradict Ep. III.

The point from sidv88 about Grievous' "Jedi arts" line is the best for the case. Only having one point that doesn't suck doesn't necessarily make for a very convincing case, but at least there's that one decent point. Personally, I think if you put his training scene in the micro series after TCW in the time-line it's fine.

 

I always felt Grievous power in the original 2003 microseries was exaggerated same as the Jedi (case in point, Mace Windu vs. the giant hammer ship and entire army of battle droids / super battle droids).

 

Yes it does, because Lucas said it does. He created Star Wars and you didn't, so what he says goes.

 

Terrible reasoning. If we lived on the word of a single man for all the answers, logic be damned, we'd still be in the Dark Ages. It's fine to disagree the argument being offered; it's stupid to dismiss critical analysis on the basis of the man behind the curtain telling you it's all going as planned.

Gallandro and Tarkas at least came at the issue with a intelligent assessment, agree or disagree with their points.

 

I'd turn that argument around and say that the argument of many people here seems to be "I personally like Story X more than Story Y, therefore X is canon and Y isn't".

Anyhow, the creative process is not logical, and is not a democracy. I may not, for example, like the Ewoks, but I can't just say "I don't like the Ewoks, therefore they're not really part of Return of the Jedi, and if you say otherwise, then - LALALALALA... I can't hear you!!!!". We all, I'm sure, have the experience of having some part of a story we like that we wish wasn't there, but in the end it's there whether we like it or not. We can ignore it, or fast forward past it, or create our own fan edits that rearrange the story to be the way we wish it was instead of the way it really is (this has a long history - Thomas Jefferson once made a fan edit of the Bible where he took out all the stuff he didn't like about Jesus being the Son of God), but in the end, the story is what it is, because that's the way the person who created it decided that's the way it should be. If you don't like it, go be a fan of something else instead.

 

Totally. I just can't reconcile the TCW Anakin with the character we see in ATOC and ROTS. He's just not the same person. His voice doesn't even sit right with me. A better hair do would suit him well too. I'm actually okay with Obi-wan, Mace Windu, and other characters for the most part. Windu trusts Anakin more in the show, but Windu actually wasn't that cynical towards him in ATOC. I think his distrust towards Anakin really grew in correlation with his strengthening relationship to Palpatine during the Clone Wars.

I just wish Anakin's character was done better. He's such an important aspect of the show.

TCW apologists can justify Anakin taking on a padawan all they want. It may not be too far fetched within the context of the story. But the fact of the matter is: Ashoka was never a part of Anakin's story. At least not until after the movies were filmed. And you know Lucas wrote Darth Maul's death in TPM. You can say otherwise, but you just know it. TCW is all about retcons. It doesn't matter that Anakin might have conceivably taught a Padawan, it's that you know he didn't originally and TCW just feels fake because of it. Whenever you watch ATOC and then ROTS, you just find it hard to imagine that the events in TCW ever truly happened in between them. You have to accept that Anakin took on a Padawn, Darth Maul survived being chopped in half by Obi-wan and caused further mayhem during the Clone Wars, Dooku had an apprentice, and Anakin and Obi-wan actually had many personal encounters with all these characters all in the time between those two movies.

Whenever I read the Clone Wars comics, or even watched the old cartoon show, or played Battlefront, or read the novels--it is so much easier to see those stories taking place between the two films. It doesn't feel nearly as out of place as TCW. (even though Ventress was in those too) TCW doesn't fit with the movies or the pre-established EU, and now we're being forced to accept it as the truest Star Wars cannon. Even above the movies in a way--by the way they've redefined the events (particularly Maul's death) that actually took place during the films. I could go on forever, but I'll just leave it at that.

PS: I watched TCW when I was high the other day, and it was awesome. Not even joking. Did it a couple times actually. Anyone else here get way more enjoyment from the show that way or is it just me? =/

 

You could say exactly the same thing about Qui-Gon as a part of Ben & Anakin's stories till TPM was filmed.

 

Almost everyone in every battle is overpowered in the micro series, but that's the shows artistic style, it's not meant to be taken literally.

This.

 

Not to mention:
> Darth Vader built 3PO (ack!)
> Midiclorians (ugh!)

 

True enough. Star Wars is all about retrospective storytelling; I won't deny that. But Lucas and co. understandably had more leeway with the prequel films because there was a whole new trilogy to expand on, and it all took place 19 to 32 years before the originals.

Well, you could always assume that Obi-wan was a padawan at some point. And as such, he presumably had a teacher. But you wouldn't assume or expect that Anakin taught a padawan for a couple years in the short time span between two movies, especially since she was never mentioned in either one of them.

Right. Lucas probably didn't conceive of those ideas at the time. But midichlorians really only expanded on the concept of the Force, and were only mentioned once outside of TPM to my knowledge. I still feel like the robots sticking around for the prequels is a more minor coincidence or retcon than the liberties that were taken with TCW.

But you know, that's all just my opinion. I'm really not a staunch TCW hater or anything. I do enjoy the show for what it's worth. But I totally agree that it feels out of place for many of the reasons stated. If there were a longer span of time between ATOC and ROTS then maybe some of these problems would be alleviated. I dunno. It's not Ashoka herself that I have issue with, for example--it's just the fact that her new found existence in the Star Wars universe in an already congested time period feels noticeably out of place in regards to not only the films but the EU published beforehand as well. And don't even get me started on Darth Maul. I do think Lucas screwed up by killing him off so early in the PT, but I still can't agree with what TCW did with him even if there were some cool story arcs with him in the show. ><

 

Problem is Obi-Wan had already said "There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi master who instructed me."
and to Yoda "Was I any different when you taught me?" when Yoda criticises Luke's anger.

And of his decision to train Anakin "I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda."

not "My master's dying request was that I train him."

 

I guess. My point wasn't really that the PT doesn't have its own share of retcons, but rather that they're easier pills to swallow than the ones we get in TCW. At least in my opinion anyway. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because these argument just run in circles all day. lol.

 

True. There are, for example, RoTS novelization scenes, like Obi-Wan and Anakin apparently meeting MagnaGuards for the first time, that TCW retcons. And I can understand people being annoyed at that.

 

GG there are no words that accurately express..how much I agree with you!!!! Their individual characterization if pretty awful as well...for this and many other reasons ...I consider TCW to be a parallel universe to the SW timeline. Great ideas in a lot episodes that weren't taken to full potential though.

BTW GG nice to see upgraded!

 

1. Anakin is a brash, arrogant young Jedi who is jealous of Obi-Wan but loves him and his wife, Padme dearly. In the show, he is with his Padawan most of the time. The Jedi Council from Episode III would never give Anakin, who is 19 years old at the time a Padawan. He is also too good in the Clone Wars and I could never see him turn to the Dark Side.

1. Anakin is a complete creep who would probably, if asked, sniff Padme's socks in AOTC. Anakin is horribly portrayed in The Clone Wars. In fact, Anakin should been portrayed this way in the movies - you'd never suspect it, it would be a great plot twist even though you knew in the end Anakin was going to fall.

2. Obi-Wan from the movies is wise and a powerful Jedi. He is also a quick thinker, beating three powerhouses in duels with this technique. In the Clone Wars he has never won a duel except versus Opress.

Obi-Wan never won a duel? I guess you zoned out him completely curbstomping Maul and Savage in Revival. How about when him and Anakin took down Ventress in Nightsisters? What about when Obi-Wan took down Cad Bane? What about him making Grievous run when he dueled him in Season 3? Matter of fact, Obi-Wan never really won a duel in the movies either. He won against Maul, Grievous, and Anakin, but got owned on two occasions by Dooku and went out on his own terms with Vader in ANH.

3. Padme is never shown with Anakin in the show. I always thought they were close together most of the war, except for the final 5 months, but Anakin and Ashoka seem to be dating.

"It feels like a lifetime we've been apart", did you ignore that part of the movie or something? Anakin and Padme being together in every single episode makes no sense.

4. Sidious should never have dueled Maul and Opress, it is something he would never do as a movie character. I always thought the Windu fight was his first real fight, a technique he had perhaps discovered in Holocrons.

Huh??? A Sith not fighting? What are you talking about? Sith fight by nature, conflict strengthens the Sith. Do you honestly think Palpatine never lightsaber fought before in a serious fight in ROTS - and managed to take out the best dueler in the Jedi Order? This makes absolutely no sense at all.
5. Yoda should have only seen action in AOTC, Yoda: Dark Rendevonus, and ROTS.

Huh? Your basing your argument out of the EU, not in context for the movies. Yoda was described as a "great warrior" in ESB. Now tell me, what kind of "great warrior" doesn't fight during the greatest war in Galactic History? It's almost like you've not watched the show, Yoda has only seen action twice that I can think of in this series - Ambush and Zillo Beast Strikes Back. That's really it, and only once was in a combat situation.

6. Mace Windu seems to trust Anakin in the show. He almost hates him in ROTS.

Now I know you've not watched the show at all, because just two episodes ago Mace told Anakin that he shouldn't be allowed to hunt down Ahsoka because he's emotionally tied to her, basically giving Anakin the middle finger infront of the entire Council.

7. Count Dooku is totally different in TCW. Why is he such a devious character. He smiled, taunts, and has a certain charm to him in the movies, in TCW not so much. Watch ROTS to see what I'm saying, and picture it as a TCW episode. You'll be surprised that these are the same character. He duels Anakin three times, contradictary to the movies. And what is up with his head?

Because Christopher Lee, that's why.

8. Grievous has defeated 1 Jedi in TCW, has faced a 13-year-old padawan twice and hasn't won. He has met Anakin quite a few times, and has faced Kenobi. How did he defeat Four Masters before ROTS?

Huh!? Anakin and Grievous have never once faced eachother in the show. Never on a single occasion. You're making facts up at this point.

9. Asajj Ventress, although not in the movies, is the best EU character in this time period. And what do they do to this fearsome apprentice. Have her be unable to beat a 13-year old Padawan, Kill no Jedi, get betrayed by Dooku, and have her become a Bounty Hunter who gets her lightsabers stolen. (No!)

EU argument, doesn't convey to Episode III at all. You do realize, people watch Episode II and III without watching a single piece of material in between and understand everything okay - right?

10. Nute Gunray and the Separatist Council, where are they.
Well maybe if the show hadn't gotten freaking cancelled, we'd know.

The above is my opinion on this topic. Watch ROTS and try to picture it as the last Clone Wars epidode. Discuss.


We know it's your opinion, you've made several threads about your hatred of the show.

We get it - you don't like Clone Wars. Stop making utterly useless, redundant, and completely pointless threads. Most of your points don't convey even to Episode III, they convey to the expanded universe and how Clone Wars contradicts that. Get out of that mindset, and watch the show for once in your life - beyond Season 2.

 

Ugh, I remember a Senate Murders thread. "They are together, see they are happily married!"

 

I don't see the difficulty in fitting TCW in with the PT. I think its all coming together nicely and only a bit of fanon is needed to fit all the pieces

Lets start with the biggest elephant in the glass house, Ahsoka Tano. she is absolutely a retcon that came long after the PT movies wrapped. The key to how Ahsoka fits is with Anakin. Anakin is only the most important character in the PT right? TCW enhances Anakin's portrayal not just in ROTS but even on the OT. TCW has given Anakin the chance to shine as the hero and the good friend Obi-wan says he was in the OT. That's something I feel is lacking in the PT. Its only after the last arc of season 5 I've really come to appreciate why giving Anakin a Padawan was a great idea.

Ahsoka opened up the biggest window into what makes Anakin's tick. He's really not just 'rawr!'. Anakin isn't completely stupid, he has brains. He uses them in the finale arc of season 5 to help Ahsoka's situation knowing 'rawr!' mode would have made things worse. "Wrong Jedi" is my favorite Anakin episode ever and I love the way it handled his character playing him as a hero while motivating Anakin by his fears of loss and letting people down (see how Ventress cat scratches him with the 'You abandoned her like he abandoned me!' speach). In the movies themselves there is nothing either way to say Anakin absolutely never had a Padawan. TCW provided the explanation itself. Ahsoka walked off into the sunset hurting Anakin who is gonna have bigger fish to occupy his mind in ROTS with dreams of his wife dying in child birth and all.

TCW has addressed Anakin's issues with trusting the Jedi Council especially Yoda, Mace Windu. and Plo Koon. Starting with the Citadel arc where Plo is shown stepping on Anakin's toes and again more directly in the Padawan lost arc. Then we got the Rako Hardeen arc where the council faked Obi-wan's death in order to send him undercover to discover what was up with the kidnapping plot against the chancellor. When all was said and done Anakin pretty much thought namely Yoda and Mace had snowed Obi-wan into the plot which opened a chasm and if it wasn't wide enough before then check out what just happened in the Ahsoka Fugitive arc where Ahsoka was tossed to the wolves for the sake of damn PR by the Jedi council who pretty much were going to let whatever happened happen. Then after Anakin saves the day they try to make up with Ahsoka saying it was all her great trials and they were going to knight her. The Jedi Council was going to knight Ahsoka as an apology. From Anakin's point of view the Jedi abandoned Ashoka, insulted her, and ran her off.

Obi-wan in TCW generally is portrayed as the wise-ass old mentor. He's not different from the PT at all. Sure TCW beat him up alot of in season 4 but Obi-wan can open up a can of whoop ass when he wants to. His rivalry with both Maul and Death Watch made for some great episodes that enhanced his character. The poor guy does kinda fumble alot. Its pretty much his fault Mandalore ended up on fire.

Sidious dueled Maul because the guy came out and called himself the true Sith lord. Sidious had to answer that challenge himself and he was never in any real danger since it was an utter curbstomp. I assume Sidious is a great swordsman. Dooku's portrayal has been kinda lame and that's one place where TCW's colors as a kids show tends to come out. To be fair AOTC pretty much put a bad guy stamp on Dooku's forehead. The show uses Dooku like Lord Zedd, Grievous is like Goldar, folks like Trench were the monsters of the day, and the battle droids are putty patrollers. In the first three seasons episode tended to go in a perfect predictable circle but from season 4 onward broke away from that formula and had been getting progressively better each season. Season 5 had a couple bad episodes but those happen in almost every show. It is kinda lame the most villancentric stuff we ever got revolved around Maul and little exploration has ever been done on the CIS side of The Clone Wars.

Yoda in action was awesome, maybe he should have been used more. And both Ventress and Grievous have done well in duels against Ahsoka. Grievous has about killed her twice now. In the Young Jedi arc Ahsoka would have been dead if not for Hondo and Slave I.