CT Plot holes in the OT that weren't plot holes until they made the PT

I already made it, I don't have to repeat it.

 

The point that the force interacts with the physical world is irrelevant. It's not a point that proves either side, or is being contested by anyone.

What is in contention is what the nature of life itself is.

Yoda tells us that we are not our bodies, and that is the nature of reality

The PT tells us something that is the polar opposite of that fact.

 

I'd argue that a good teacher would present the most significant and relevant information first, especially when time is of the essence. But that's just me.

Really? You don't care? Then why are you still discussing this?

And stuff I like to pretend is on the screen? You mean Yoda didn't say that life creates the Force in ESB?

So if the Force is "supernatural," that is to say, attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature, then how could it exist without life, without nature, since Yoda says that "life creates it"?

 

Well, when someone's wrong, that's really all the argument you need.



That's all the argument Captain TomCoughlin needs in this case.

 

Because Yoda has been giving you the answer to this all along, life creates the force because the essence of life is not found in the material, it's found in the spiritual. That's been the lesson the entire time. That's the whole point.

But you guys don't hear what he's telling you, you rationalize it away. Or you explain why you think he's really saying something else. All of which was BS from the beginning. Yoda, he's been clear from the beginning.

 

Yeah, being dishonest about if you're really a Jedi, then dicking around about even training Luke in the first place, then talking rocks and crap was clearly for the sake of time.

You're right about what he said, wrong about what he meant.

 

Yoda says that life creates the Force and that we are not our bodies. The existence of midichlorians does not negate this fact since midichlorians are merely presented as conduits through which living things perceive the Force, not the Force itself. But when we die, we rejoin the Force itself. I fail to see how any "plot hole" exists.

The Force has a physical tether to the natural world -- life (not midichlorians) -- and midichlorians is how sentient life perceives the Force. I fail to see a contradiction here.

The PT doesn't tell us that "we are our bodies" it only says that, when we are alive, we can perceive the Force through the mediation of midichlorians. The nature of the Force itself is not altered, though, as it always depended on life for its existence, and thus the natural world.

 

I know you fail to see it, because you fail to hear what Yoda is telling you

 

Again, the only thing I'm "failing" at is interpreting Yoda's words in the same manner as you are.

I am not saying that the Force is "our bodies" or "crude matter," but it is life that makes it grow and creates it. And the Force can have profound effects on the physical world. It is thus tethered, very clearly, to the world itself and to the existence of life. It's symbiosis, you could say.

Midichlorians contradict nothing that Yoda says.

 

I already addressed your point about life making it grow, you might want to read that again

 

Because a teacher teaching about the force doesn't just leave out the part about how it's all thanks to tiny microscopic creatures when he is giving a lesson about the nature of the Force. PLOT HOLE.

 

Do you mean this:

Because Yoda has been giving you the answer to this all along, life creates the force because the essence of life is not found in the material, it's found in the spiritual. That's been the lesson the entire time. That's the whole point.

Because I would say it's rather the opposite. If everything in the universe died, I think the Force itself would wither away as well -- hence why the Sith are so dangerous to it since they bring nothing but death, destruction, and hatred. Living things are part of the Force and rejoin it when they die, but I think it would be profoundly misleading to say that life -- natural life -- has no bearing on the Force. It's not Force ghosts that are creating it and making it grow.

Again, the Force is almost the opposite of God, in a sense -- Life creates it and makes it grow and it directly affects the physical world whereas God creates life but we can't directly measure or perceive his impact on the physical world.

 

Yoda didn't have the time to teach Luke everything about the Force. It would take a lifetime for him to learn and Luke's time was limited. In the military, for example, you're often trained religiously on protocol for even minute details -- such as how to fold your uniform, the proper channels through which to pass information and the like. If you're giving someone a crash course, though, you have to parse it down to the most relevant information. Yoda was 900 years old and dying -- there was no way he could teach Luke everything. He simply had to teach Luke everything he needed. It's hardly what I would call a plot hole.

 

I think I made my meaning very plain, that Life, at least as presented to us by Yoda, is clearly spiritual in nature. And that it is through that spiritual connection that it intereacts with the force. That it is about energy, not cells.

Yoda wasn't lying. He wasn't saying something he didn't mean. You guys want to distort the meaning behind his words. We are not our bodies, that is the core lesson. And it's not going away. He dismisses the body, and with that any midiclorians that may be in it.

 

This is just an empty rationalization why the lines you need to be in the movie that aren't there, aren't there.

Yoda gave us his lesson, and it conflicts with what some of you are selling and it's not because of "no time"

 

Note that the word "spiritual" is never presented in the OT, though. Yes, the energy interacts with us, but it is life that creates this energy. And, energy itself is a physical concept.

We aren't our bodies -- and I have never said as much -- but the continued existence of the Force depends on the continued existence of life. When one dies, one simply become One with the Force, but there must be new life to continue the Force's growth and potentiate it.

 

Luminous beings= of the spirit

You shouldn't need me to explain that

He tells us we are of the spirit, not the body. And no matter how hard anyone tries to deny it, that's what he meant

 

The fact of the matter remains that Yoda in ESB did not mention midi chlorians to Luke. When Yoda poetically explains the force to Luke, he doesn't turn round and ask Yoda, 'so what allows me to use the force, to tap into its power?' 'well, there's a tiny microscopic life form in your blood that allows you to use the force'. It would totally contradict everything Yoda was trying to convey to Luke about the magic and mystery of it. It is something that doesn't need explaining. Why are you strong with the Force? Why was Obi Wan? Why am I? We don't know? We just are and THAT'S the magic and mystery of it.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

The lines aren't there because Lucas was expanding upon the meaning of the Force in TPM -- building more layers to it. What Yoda tells us in ESB is not made wrong or illogical by anything in the PT. It doesn't conflict with anything Qui-Gon says.

But, again, you have to look at the relevance of the query. Yoda has no way to (in-story) to show midichlorians to Luke (either through a counter or a microscope) and knowledge of them is not going to help him defeat the Sith or resist the Dark Side.

 

I mean very simply, the reason it's not in the movie is because it's not in the movie.

 

Where did I disagree with "luminous beings"? Living things are part of the Force since they help create it and rejoin it when they die.

But I don't think you'd disagree with me that if the Sith managed to destroy all life, they would destroy the Force as well, right?

The propagation of the Force is contingent on new life being born. Thus, there is a physical tether for the Force's continued existence.

But the individual himself is not tethered to crude matter because he can transcend his own body by becoming One with the Force.

 

You can't really destroy spiritual life. Not that this matters anyway.

And no, since Yoda is telling us that life is spiritual in nature, I don't buy into your physical tether argument at all. At least as far as the OT is concerned. It's tethered to the spiritual aspect of us all, which again is the lesson Yoda is trying to tell you

You just don't want to get it because then you have to concede the plothole.

 

But it's physical life that makes the Force grow. It is through the "spirit," the luminous portion, though, that we tap into it.

Hence why Yoda is in a swamp, wouldn't you say? Luke even notes that there's "massive lifeform readings" from his ship computer as he approaches it.

The Force is tied to the cyclical nature of life -- to new generations being born. Every individual is spiritually tethered to the Force and rejoins it upon death, but I think that Yoda makes it pretty clear that the Force itself is created by "living things."

I think that this is at the core of the philosophy of the Saga, personally.

The Sith threaten the Force because they destroy life -- physical life -- and thus weaken it in their greed. If physical life did not matter, then the threat of the Sith would be very small indeed.

 

Where does he say it's physical life? The real truth he tells us, life isn't physical. You just don't get it, you don't want to.

But then again, based on your earlier post, you're the type that will excuse any plot hole in the films.

You excuse Leia and her mother, so quite frankly if you'll excuse that you'll excuse anything.

 

Yoda had time to be dishonest about really being a Jedi, time to dick around about whether he would actually train Luke or not, and he had time to go on about rocks and whatnot. This invalidates the argument that he didn't have enough time. He clearly had the time to mention something which would have been about two sentences.