Books CRUCIBLE by Troy Denning: The Official Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

It occurs to me that the age difference between Ben and Tahiri is actually less than the age difference between Kyp and Jaina and only two years larger than the gap between Leia and Han (and both Jaina and Leia were about 18 in DJ and ANH respectively).

This isn't an endorsement of (a) the idea that the book is trying to romantically set up Ben and Tahiri or (b) the idea that such a relationship would be a good idea. I just thought it was an interesting point to make.

I feel it's the context of Invincible (where I don't actually think Tahiri was serious about going through with anything, but I totally get the creep factor) and her previous relationship with Anakin that makes the idea a potentially squicky one, rather than the straight-up age difference which really isn't unprecedented for this family.

Skywalkers like 'em older?

 

Invincible practically ruins any concept of a post-TUF Tahiri being any good, unfortunately. She was okay in FOTJ...but too depressed, always mopey. For goodness' sakes, it's been 12+ years since Anakin's death. You can continue to honor his memory, but stop mourning, please! And the seduction scene with Ben was just, as I said before, creepy-weird. Just more Denning sexual-fetish.

 

seduction scene?

 

If you don't know, haven't heard about it... Do not ask! Some things you're better off not knowing!

 

I get why you disliked the "seduction" scene. I disagree with you on Tahiri though. I think she's an interesting character and I'm glad she's actually been brought instead of falling out of usage without Anakin around. And also that she didn't get thrown under a bus after the situation with Jacen in LOTF. I do feel like she could/should have gotten more time and attention to explain why she did what she did, but screw it, I also feel that way about Jacen.

If I can put up with a traumatic death at an early age providing a lifelong source of angst and characterisation for Batman, I can deal with it for Tahiri. Anakin was beautiful and perfect because he died a tragic, heroic death when he was still a child. There's tragedy and pathos in the fact that that makes him perfect and untouchable and no one else will ever live up. I think it's a part of her character not the totality of it, and so I'm cool with the decision to write it that way.

 

Lol what book is it from?

 

I'm told Invincible.

A short while back someone actually posted the quoted excerpt in all its queasy horror, but can't recall which thread it was.

 

Wow.....ok.

 

It is from Invincible. It was sadly lacking the subsequent requisite scene in which Ben is asked to show on a doll where he was touched.

 

Well, the thing is, they've focused only on her obsession over Anakin's death. Yeah, it's bad that he died. I was sad, too, and I still wish it hadn't happened. But it shouldn't be the totality of her character. They totally dropped half-Vong characterization, and she sided with Caedus because he told her he could bring Anakin back. Honestly, she was pretty dumb to fall for it, because if Jacen could've, he would have done it for himself; Betrayal went on to explain how much Jacen missed Anakin; and if Tahiri thought he wouldn't do it for himself, she should've known he wouldn't for her.

Well, Ben was in jail and they wanted information, so Tahiri came in with her jacket "unzipped all the way below her navel" and I believe it said where she had come from must've been must warmer because of sweat glinting off her body...and she proceeded to rub lotion on Ben's backside on his torture wounds, despite Ben's protest that he "didn't have any scars there." Yeah, it was the worst thing to come out of a Denning book since Alema wearing a spacesuit so tight it would "rip right open if she bent over" and somehow fighting acrobatically in it.

 

Eh, I actually don't freak out over it as much as some people, but like I said, I DO get why people hate it.

Basically Tahiri, while acting as Jacen's Sith Apprentice, tries to manipulate Ben by implying she might provide sexual favours. Ben is fourteen at the time. Nothing actually happens. (ETA: it's been a while since I read it - I didn't recall the physical invasion of space per the account above, apologies). It's unclear whether Tahiri would have gone through with it. Ben has been confirmed as a Jedi Knight at this point and is effectively operating as an independent adult. I actually think it was pretty stupid of Luke to do that, so I'm most definitely not arguing that fourteen years old is a sensible age of majority, but I think it's important contextual information, whether it worsens or improves the clusterfrak.

Tahiri tries to play the "horny teenaged boy" card. Ben is more interested in trying to redeem her soul.

Which is something I like that he cares about and more-or-less succeeds in doing, so while I'm hesitant about any sort of romantic relationship (and would be genuinely surprised if this was the direction they were planning to go in), I am in unreserved favour of a friendship between them. So I'm happy to hear they're working together.

I think the only thing you raise here that I didn't already address in the part you quoted is the Vong stuff. I agree that's a real shame to lose. But sort of like her fall to the dark side in LOTF, I don't think that it's a criticism specific to her. They dropped the Vong stuff from EVERYWHERE.

 

Ah, here it is!

Post #363

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...ara-issue-i-emailed-him-with.50010399/page-15

With thanks to GrandMasterKatarn who typed it all in:

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Yeah; I'm glad they're friends and I've wanted them to be friends ever since he redeemed her in Invincible; as long as they don't go the romance route I'll be happy.

 

I stand corrected...

It wasn't his backside.

 

As LJD has just invoked the Graduate, 2 points:

1. Hoffman's character was 20-21, not 14!

2. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Graduate#Plot

That's one fracked-up movie!

 

But he looks 14 in that picture.

 

How could Del Rey have gotten away with letting Denning lead the post-NJO in this insane direction? If the reviews are any indication, Crucible is clearly the culmination of everything that is wrong with the post-NJO, which still seems to be chugging along.

 

Equally, that snippet does also support the notion that she's looking for a way to save him from further torture, which fits with her general LOTF arc of pretending she's less conflicted than she clearly is. Messed up? Absolutely. But the first creepy place her mind goes when confronted by a fourteen year old with something she wants? Not so much.

 

I dunno. The sales numbers have precipitously dropped over the past decade, but there's certainly other variables that could have contributed to this. Del Rey may believe the absence of prequel films and the economy are more the cause than the novels themselves.

 

If someone was trying to shoot something I was holding in my hand with a gun that wasn't able to be aimed accurately, I would not be comforted by the fact that there's a chance the target in my hand will be missed. Probably the opposite.

Well, if he as a trainee should be expected to deflect the multiple bolts with it being a non-issue, then surely it should be an almost inconsequential issue for Jedi Knights and Masters to direct a single bolt, then? Not to mention I took it to be he was showing off, not deliberately trying to kill them.

Kam, who actually served the Emperor for years, and Tionne, who had to deal with dark side corrupted students throughout the JJK/YJK eras, think that this single act demands the guy be kicked out of the Jedi for life? So where are their resignations? Or where are their demands for Saba to be kicked out for actually killing another Jedi?

For Corran...I forget, wasn't he one of the ones who basically said that Kenth had it coming and shrugged off his murder? I can't recall.

Since Jaina has basically been turned into strung-out killing machine by the writing staff, I can't argue with you there.

 

The "oh, but s/he looked.." defence doesn't fly.

Denning basically makes Tahiri a paedophile with this scene, I've no idea what the hell he was thinking.

 

Tahiri was over Anakin's death by The Final Prophecy. Inferno onwards was not needed.
That scene in Invincible was one of the most appalling scenes in all of Star Wars. Though that 2nd sabacc game in Crucible comes close if not beats it.

 

Wow.... You know someone needs to sit Denning down and go....



Dude, are you OK? Because you're being a git!

(Ok the last word isn't that, but if any clips of The Last Leg are online you can find the proper sequence on Justin Bieber easily)

 

Being a Git? I'd say something worse to him than that.