Books CRUCIBLE by Troy Denning: The Official Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Well, as I say, certain terms aren't allowed here, the actual term used by Hills is far more fitting. Will PM you a link.

 

The Graduate pic was not a tacit endorsement of the scene! I think my opinion that there's almost nothing worthwhile in the DNT-LOTF-FOTJ-Crucible saga is pretty well established. It even hurts SW Legacy for me, the taint is so pervasive.

 

I dunno dude, as I said, I won't argue it's a messed up situation but paedophilia implies she's sexually attracted to children, which I don't think is the case. I think it's pretty clearly about getting him to talk and about saving him from future torture.

I also think it's worth noting that - after the quotes section - when Ben declines, she doesn't press the issue.

Had she gone through with it, then sure, I would call that child abuse (err, well, then she would have been guilty of sexual abuse as well as the physical abuse Ben has already suffered). Since I think the circumstances and his age would make informed, legal consent impossible, I think it'd basically be sexual assault too.

But saying it makes Tahiri a paedophile? Eh, no. I don't think she's attracted to children, I think she's doing this for reasons that have nothing to do with what kinds of people she's sexually attracted to.

 

14 renders Ben a child though Becc. I dunno is child abuser, with multiple forms of abuse involved better than paedophila? I really don't know. Don't think Denning should have opted for this at all.

Next time then... Add a comment!

 

Well yeah, like I said, I do understand why it's something people don't like as a concept, no matter the surrounding context - I won't argue that point beyond subjective opinion?

I just think that there is value in being precise about what she's doing, if we're going to be arguing degrees of awfulness. Cus, I dunno, maybe others disagree, but I do think calling her a paedophile implies she was motivated by sexual desire towards kids, rather than an attempt to save Ben from a torture chamber, and that yes, that is an even darker place than the one she's otherwise in.

 

Pedophilia is attraction to prepubescent children. A fourteen-year-old doesn't qualify. So really Denning only made Tahiri a child molester, which is... better?

This is exactly the kind of discussion I imagine having when I think of Star Wars.

 

I've been seriously asking myself the question of why Denning was still allowed to write Star Wars novels ever since Invincible, a novel with a wretched climax and no resolution beyond a hugely implausible deus ex machina (and since this was for the last book of a series, for me this no-resolution ruined the series as well as Invincible itself). I've come up with three possible answers: 1) Denning has blackmail material on important people at Del Rey. 2) His editors are just as bad as he is and so honestly don't realize how dreadful a writer he is. 3) His editors have come to realize he's a bad writer, but can't bring themselves to admit it (as it would imply that they made a mistake by giving him so many novels to write, and/or with the general direction of the novels themselves since the end of NJO).

As for the Tahiri making a pass at Ben (in that same Invincible, you'll notice), I never thought it was because Tahiri has pedophile tendencies. IMO she just saw a possible way to break the will of a fourteen year-old boy and get the information her Sith master wanted more quickly than through torture, and perhaps she did genuinely want Ben's torture to end. But still, it was a bit creepy to read.

 

I'd think the difference between someone molesting a 14 year old because she's a pedophile, and someone molesting a 14 year old because she wants information is a very, very thin one. You're still molesting a 14 year old, and I don't think the FBI are going to care about your reasons.

And saying that it was to save him or whatever just raises the question as to why the damn plot point had to be written in the first place.

On that note, the difference between shooting at someone trying to kill them and shooting at them trying to not kill them is also a very, very thin one.

 

I'm inclined to believe the answer is #2, and that the positive qualities that the NJO had which are lacking in what followed are due to the absence of Jim Luceno and other writers like Keyes, Stover, and Williams. It has been widely reported that Luceno had a large role in planning the series and based on his other work like Darth Plagueis I'm willing to believe he is responsible for the good aspects of the series.

 

Alas that repeatedly stating that I didn't think it made what she did okay doesn't actually the discussion from turning towards why it was not okay.

I think the line is irrelevant if we're talking about what she's doing to the fourteen year old, which is the primary ethical concern. But I think the line is enormous if we're talking about what kind of character she is. Which is certainly a narrative concern not to be dismissed and likely to affect the readers' opinion of her at least somewhat.

Regardless, she doesn't actually do it and I reiterate again that I understand why people hate it.

 

I don't know, was there a Batman story where he got over the death of his parents and decided to put his grief behind him and move on with his life? If there was, I feel like it must have been just as ignored in later comics as Tahiri's NJO character arc was in LOTF.

I think Tahiri is interesting too, which is why I would have infinitely preferred her falling out of usage without Anakin to being used only as someone obsessed with Anakin. Either way, she's still anchored to a dead character.

 

Have Tahiri fall in love with someone from the Imperial Remnant!

 

Oh god so many. There have been so many. The most recent I remember was probably the Batman & Robin one with that dumb paper boat right after the reboot. And yes, then they get ignored again because yay comics...

I feel like Tahiri is better being around and used than dusty and forgotten even if she's not being used in the best possible way. But that's predicated on the fact I don't think she's been used in a way so awful she's forever tainted. And also because I don't mind her being partially anchored to a dead character. I think handled right that could be as interesting as anything else about her. Hell, it keeps Anakin present in the narrative in a way.

Mind, I have only read the first half of FOTJ. So.

 

Tahiri doesn't need a man, she has the combined training of the Tusken Raiders, Yuuzhan Vong, Jedi, and Sith. She's potentially the coolest character in the post-NJO EU but all anyone can think of to have her do is murder old men, molest young boys, and feel sad. How about a book where she just goes around the galaxy kicking everyone's ass?

 

Look, I get that you dislike the book -- but if you honestly read that passage in the book and thought that the Jedi Masters assembled were in the wrong, then you are predisposed to hate everything written.

For one, Jag is shown to comment on Seha's accuracy as such:

"Nice shooting, Jedi Dorvald, I haven't seen that many marksmen who could've fired that many pistol bolts at an evading target and still avoided the egg."

Clearly this is intended to mean that Seha's a pretty lousy shot and that Bhixen was really in no danger from her shooting -- which wasn't the point of the exercise; it was to see his reaction. Which was...

"... and when he saw who was attacking him, the Force boiled with his outrage... he switched to a two-handed grip and began to bat Seha's attacks back at her so quickly that Luke barely had time to Force-tug his aide to safety. Even then, the Togorian sent the last bolt flying directly into the gathering of Masters and Luke had to raise a Force-shielded palm to deflect it."

Later

"His presence was quivering with shock and shame, but his outrage remained, as though the attack from an unexpected quarter had been an undeserved indignity."
and -- "The Togorian marched forward, chin held high and ears erect, trying to conceal the anxiety he was pouring into the Force. It was clear that he regretted batting a blaster bolt back towards the Masters, but there was also indignation in his aura, as though he refused to accept the mistake had been his."

Yeah, this is not the manner of someone who showed off. He intentionally batted bolts back at Seha and then intentionally sent one to Jedi Masters. I have no problems with people disliking the book -- I dislike it quite a bit -- but let's not go overboard with pointing out everything. I disliked Man of Steel immensely as well, but not every thing in the movie is a plot hole or a problem. That's the same here.

If you honestly believe that's a huge gaping problem and the world (of warcraft) as we know it is going to end because of it, knock yourself out. I prefer to focus on the rest of the ridiculous problems with the book myself...

 

How old would Tahiri had been in that scene with Ben?

 

ITA! Just imagine their genders being reversed, and it's a young man and a 14 year old girl.

*shudders*

 

Approximately 28 I think. She was born in 13 ABY according to the wook.

 

Touche. That would be acceptable. I am an Anakin Solo/Tahiri shipper until I die but I want her to find someone. Someone who would accept her for her. That was one of the things I was looking forward to after TUF. Continuing on after Anakin.

 

Wow....I was introduced to her in FOTJ and she doesn't read as being that old. She acts like a teenager.

 

Well, that fits with her perpetually being stuck at the age at which Anakin died.

 

I believe DNT came out at least 2 years after TUF. DNT definitely took from Episode III, which came out years after TUF.

Exactly.

I was kind of hoping that in FOTJ, Jag and Tahiri would go "kark the Solo's!" and marry each other, with Tahiri becoming Empress and founding the Imperial Knights due to her unique experience.

 

Yeah, I don't have insight into the development of Dark Nest, but The Joiner King was published twenty months after The Unifying Force, and Denning had seen either Revenge of the Sith's novelization manuscript or shooting script when he wrote it, so I found it hard to believe it was in development that early. I'm much more inclined to believe that it was begun at least at the same time as Labyrinth of Evil and Stover's novelization, if not later.

I think Tahiri is a victim of the fact that characters after the NJO have become defined by one core element: Jaina is the SWORD OF THE JEDI, Tahiri is perpetually mourning her teenage love, Jacen is psychologically scarred, Luke is a jerk, Ben is ?, etc.

 

Jag and Tahiri as Emperor and Empress? I like the sound of that.

 

All it requires is for Jaina to join her brothers in death so Jag can remarry.