Books CRUCIBLE by Troy Denning: The Official Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

What would you call the X-Wing novels, if not books about minor EU characters?

 

Luke says he's a pretty good warrior even though he's not a Jedi. Or something like that. I forgot what specifically was said because I was so annoyed by it.

 

True, that is a possibility. Hmm, I've just gone to take a look at Troy Denning's Wiki page... and as far as I can tell, he doesn't have a single original novel to his name. All of his work has been tie-in fiction. Maybe that's why he gets so many SW novels - because better authors have original novels and/or projects in other mediums that need their time, while Denning is always available to stain one franchise or another.

 

why?

Funny because Denning is the best author that has touched Star Wars except for Luceno and perhaps Stover

 

Zahn?

 

Jagged is apparently just helping the Jedi with training or being with Jaina. He was the one shooting during the Jedi apprentice's test. The Remnant is mentioned a few times as possibly being interested in that asteroid belt as its a major source of metals, in the sense that the Corporate Sector or the Imperial Remnant might someday annex that area, or something like that, I don't remember exactly, its not a major plot point, I think it was just brought up when Luke was asking Wuul for any info on the area.

Its getting kind of annoying, the divide between Force users and non-Force users in terms of combat strength. It wasn't quite so bad during the NJO, but since LotF when the protagonists/heroes have basically dwindled from New Republic/Galactic Alliance in general to just "Jedi and friends" its become even more blatant. Such as how in this novel its basically Jedi with Han, Jagged, Lando and that miner guy, Omag or something. And Han is already literally a grandfather so he can't do much. Another annoying moment was when Vestara got back from killing Wuul and it was described as something like only she (a Sith/Force user) could have gotten around a Senator's security and kill him... so either security has gotten a lot better or assassins a lot weaker since its not like Senators haven't been killed in other way before.

Though its just part of how Denning writes really, with the Jedi almost always as commandoes, and is the role Luke and Leia fall into for the last third of the novel (while they're trying to rescue Han).

Sure seems like the Jedi are almost permanently on Shedu Maad, yet not sure we actually know that much about the planet either, but that's no surprise given how... light on details most novels are. And guess its still better than being stuck in the Coruscant Temple.

 

Great author, and props to him for getting Star wars EU started. But still not in the same league as Denning.
Also Zahn's last few books have been meh

Oh yeah I completely forgot about that. that was the only part of this book that got me wtf'ing.
Can't believe they just killed Wuul off like that. Off screen.

Denning loves killing Sullustans characters off-screen, remember Sien Sovv, hero of the Vong war, killed between books by a bunch of insects high on bug-meth

 

Why was I annoyed? Because Luke should know better than to have such a superior attitude toward non-Jedi.

 

Hmm, I didn't see it that way. If anything the opposite. Luke knows what an advantage being trained in ways of the force is, which makes it even more impressive that Jag is as capable as he is.

 

It shouldn't be impressive. Luke has been around non-Force users his entire life. He already knows how capable they are.

*cough* Wedge Antilles *cough*

 

Luke's memory doesn't expand beyond Dark Nest and the revisionist history it presents though. Wedge was retired by then!

 

And Jacen doesn't fall? If so I will read it.

 

i would rather they have handed the universe over to Stover or Allston. oh well

and no resolution beyond a hugely implausible deus ex machina

i agree jaina defeating Jacen was impausible, but not a deus ex machina. He did only have one arm

 

Quoted the 3 of you because you've pretty much covered everything I could say. Yes, the difference in terminology does matter, but it is a thin line and whichever option we go for, Tahiri isn't going to come out well. And yeah, if the genders were reversed.... Ah, no, not touching that one with a 50-foot bargepole!

 

I thought Vestara had that potenial, but 28,000 dead ensures that potential is gone. Tahiri's mind has been thru the grinder and back again. From her time being mind wiped by the Vong, I think she even had an ability to disappear from the force (as the Vong were) when she accesses her alternate identity. That has potential for an interesting plot twist. Damaged people on the edge, always good reading.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Denning is in a league of wretchedness shared only by Karen Traviss and Kevin J. Anderson, while Stover and Luceno are among my list of all-time top 5 Star Wars writers. I believe Denning to be by far the worst active Star Wars writer, and that he should have been kicked off the franchise after the dreadful Invincible. The thought that he might still plague the franchise in the ST era is my single greatest fear for the future of Star Wars.

 

Exactly. If there's any Jedi in the galaxy would never, ever discount the capabilities of us mundane folk, it's Luke Skywalker. I'm pretty sure he owes Han his life at least three times over.

I don't mind the tendency to write Jedi as somewhat arrogant- more often than not, they are- but Luke was a farmer, soldier and friend long before he was ever a Jedi. Luke is supposed to embody all of the virtues that the Jedi never lived up to. I can't tell you how much it annoys me to see him acting like a surly Mace Windu.

 

I know I'm likely to regret this, but this made me think about the thing you said you wouldn't touch with a 50-foot pole and actually if we can all...not be sensationalist about it for a second, and I'm going to be optimistic and say that we can, I believe it's not as clear cut as one might think and shines some interesting light onto the issue generally.

That is to say, genderflip it and it becomes clear that it's not actually a scene about being a sexual predator. Ben has a lot more power in that scene, in terms of their dynamics, than it initially appears. As I mentioned earlier, he turns down her offer and she doesn't push it further. The scene fires on two stereotypes - Mata Hari and the horny teenage boy, and both are heavily gender-coded cliches. The idea that teenage girls might be similarly horny and the idea of a man trying to appear sexually appealing and seductive to coax secrets out of her, rather than simply making a move on her because she's powerless and it's the sex he wants, followed by a refusal that isn't pushed further, is, in itself, actually a subversion of a ton of tropes.

The idea that it's immediately worse because it's genderflipped I think comes from just seeing the age difference and fitting that into the established social narrative of those situations and assuming the motive is sexual. When in fact, if it were genderflipped it could highlight some stereotypes by undercutting them, rather than just having them invisibly and unironically form part of the narrative.

As I've said numerous times, I don't like being in the position of defending the scene as the height of good taste or even good narrative judgement (as much as I can talk about the way we may bring our own social narratives to bear in judging Tahiri's characterisation, it could be counterargued that any redemptive interpretation of Ben's agency is redundant because it can be read as an affirmation of the dangerous notion that boys can't be sexually abused because all Real Men Want It), but I do genuinely think that the context of the scene and the motivations of those involved matters and the situation is more complex than simply reading it as "27 year old hits on 14 year old".

 

To be honest Becc, despite the excerpt, I don't have first-hand knowledge of the story nor did I bother with LOTF beyond Betrayal. So I'm not really able to discuss it all that well - might there be an interesting story with this kind of scenario? Perhaps. Would it require a far more skilled writer than Denning? Definitely. Could it be done and still bear the title Star Wars? Don't think so.

 

Well, like I said, I can see why people who've read it were dubious and it's not a section I'd hold up as my favourite for reasons stated, but I do think that INVINCIBLE is the best and most coherent LOTF novel. So without being that guy, I'll be...a little bit of that guy and say yeah, considering I'm specifically arguing contextual details, it means that in this situation it matters that you haven't read it. But I do also disagree with the Star Wars title comment. It's hard to articulate what I mean because I do think that there's a core tone to Star Wars that should be maintained, but I also feel that one of the EU's greatest strengths is its breadth and part of that is its ability to go to weird and unexpected places, genre-wise. What's happening in this scene - I'd argue - is tonally no darker than much of SHATTERPOINT. Personal opinions on authorial skill aside?

Anyway, as I said, I respect your position of squickedness, I just so often see that scene held up as an example of Stuff That's Wrong without a lot of discussion, when actually, idk, I think there's a lot there to discuss. Even if the ultimate conclusion is: DUDE ICK.

 

Well, I'd like to think you know me better than that after all these years!

Thing is, I'm interested in where such discussions go, but sometimes, depending on the topic, end up feeling like I'm fallen into the middle of:



Hmm, although, could Stover pull it off? I'm not inclined to put anything past him though I can't help but think his response would be: Nah, screw that, I'm not doing that, I'm doing this! Something else that actually covers the stuff you've perhaps got in mind but a damn sight better.

 

I can always count on you for fun discussion. And I'm sorry for the times I lure you into minefields.

(And we both know the danger of underestimating OR trying to predict Stover...)

 

So, popping in and out here these past few pages, I still gotta ask.

Have people declared this the Worst EU book ever? It honestly seems that way at this point. I haven't even seen this much negativity when Invincible and Apocalypse came out. 3...2...1...

 

This is the second time you've come in here with a countdown to Crucible being the worst EU book. It doesn't even seem like you even read it. Is there a reason you're trying to spread this negativity?

I honestly don't know what to think anymore. I used to love to come here and read the various discussions, but TheForce.net EU fans are really starting to wear me out.

This was a great Star Wars book. I loved it from beginning to end. Far from perfect it may be (whatever that means), there is no chance this is a 2 or 3 out of 10 novel. Denning, while he does have his idiosyncrasies, is a very competent writer who has crafted a novel unlike any we've ever seen before, and a highly entertaining, thought provoking one at that.

I've never finished a SW book where I had the need to tell my girlfriend all about it (she doesn't care about the Star Wars EU) because it left so much on my mind. I don't mind or cringe at Denning's use of violence, and I see no issues whatsoever with how the Jedi conducted themselves in this book. It was a well-crafted, well-told story, and I can't wait to read it again.

If I was Denning I don't think I'd be caught dead on these forums, but just in case: Well done, sir!