Full Series Official Star Wars Rebels Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

I agree. It was just....weird.

 

Agree about Nass. The Prequels were packed with way too much cutesy humor that I think only George Lucas found funny.

 

Which I find a little odd, any time I see interviews with Lucas he seems like a very quiet, shy person that rarely laughs or smiles, yet also seems like half the time he is feeding his own ego in regards to how significant every single decision he makes is.

I just try to picture him with his notepad writing out a scenes for TPM and deciding that Jar Jar needed to be a clumsy Hadrosaurus/frog with a Caribbean accent that steps in poop and is on the receiving end of fart jokes. And then shortly thereafter there are scenes discussing the taxation of trade routes. The prequels had a really weird juxtaposition of tones that the OT did not have IMO.

I can think of only a couple lighthearted moments in the thick of combat in the OT. Some of them weren't even exceptionally lighthearted.

But in the prequels there is a lot of humor thrown into the mix of the action.

Star Wars has definitely had its humorous moments from the beginning, but usually it's in the form of banter between characters during scenes that aren't meant to be suspenseful. Like Han and Leia when they're hiding in the asteroid/space slug, or Han and Luke while rescuing Leia. It's never like humor was ever really dropped at an inappropriate time like during the attack on the Death Star, while Luke was fighting Vader (either time), or when Luke finds his aunt and uncle murdered. In TPM we see humor during the Battle of Naboo and Anakin's fortunate accidents in the Battle Over Naboo, or banter during the Battle of Geonosis, or during the fight between Obi-Wan and Grievous. TPM while being the most unnecessarily humorous overall (IMO) actually had the one lightsaber fight that I felt captured the tone of the OT fights the best. There were zero goofy shots (i.e. Palpatine's weird faces while fighting Mace) or unnecessary humor ("oh not good").

The prequels had a lot of good ideas that I felt failed in execution. Personally, I'm hoping Rebels can better capture the feeling of the OT once again with more subtle humor and keeping humor out of inappropriate scenes.

 

Prequel hate remains packed with originality I see.

 

I love the prequels but unfortunately there is also so much to hate about them.

 

Everyone likes to make people laugh and I'm sure it felt great to George when people laughed at the OT. Problem was that it was a different kind of humor in the OT but it made him believe that he was some kind of comedic genius which he isn't. I can also understand why he wanted to get as much humor into the prequels whenever and whenever he could because the overall tone of the films is pretty dark. There lies the biggest problem...he was trying too hard to awkwardly shoehorn slapstick lowbrow humor into a very dark set of stories and it just did not work. The tone of the prequels is all over the damned place and it really just confuses the audience IMHO. Lastly the OT did not have much jokey type humor (except ROTJ) it was mostly just situations that were funny because they were ludicrous.

 

I have the utmost confidence in the new crew of executive producers: Weisman, Kinberg, and yes, even Dave Filoni, who, if I'm not mistaken, considers the OT his favorite trilogy/era (hence, all the OT references in TCW). I think they can recapture that "magic" you are referring to in the OT. The fact that the Ghost will serve as a "home" for the hero(es) already gives off vibes of the Millennium Falcon in ANH and TESB. I think there will be plenty of homages, but at the same time we can expect something new, something unique as well.

 

We may actually get the Falcon too, considering the era of the show. Not necessarily called the Millenium Falcon at the time though. (The Falcon's wookieepedia page has a list of its previous names. There's at least ten of them IIRC.)

 

^
The Momentary Pigeon

 

I'd really be uninterested in seeing the Falcon. With such a huge galaxy, it would get to me to see the same ship having fateful encounters with prominent characters, regardless of Captain, throughout the Imperial era.

 

I agree. I would be super excited to hear it mentioned or see it flyby, ONCE. Anything past that would just irritate me regardless of the reasoning of its appearance.

 

As I was rewatching the s5 arcs of TCW last night, a thought occurred to me, one which I feel has yet to be addressed here quite adequately and may be quite controversial, but one I feel I must none-the-less bring up.

Rebels will lack George Lucas' input, perhaps almost entirely. In a sense, what we can expect will be very different from what we got in TCW.

I am unable to decide if this is a good thing or a bad thing.

As a self confessed continuity nut (but one who believes in the power of good retcons), I will not hesitate in the least to note that George was notorious for simply disregarding much of the great material that had been built up around him, and changing things in ways that I and others believe simply did not need to be. This annoyed me and other people to the point where many in Lit have sworn off the show completely. I greatly disagree with this stance, but I understand where it comes from. Star Wars continuity survived the show fine IMHO, but some of George's tendencies to change things that were well established were just annoying. As the creator he has a certain right to do so, but so often the changes were rendered moot by retcons, ignored, or were simply unnecessary.

What happens when he's no longer around?

In my opinion, other authors generally are more respectful of continuity (yes, I include Filoni in this) because they do 'not' own the Sandbox the way George did. Most will try to remain consistent and work reasonably closely with the licensing department for this very reason. Because of the sparsely populated nature of this era in terms of material, we could well see a story that tampers far less with established material and avoids many errors that did not need to happen in the first place. Of course, with Disney's direction, they may just say to trash the whole thing... but I really think the real danger from Disney is only in Ep VII's territory. I don't think they'll care that much about anything before 4ABY, save maybe material related to a spin off film or two. We shall see.

But I digress, my main concern is not yet another continuity battle. I'm much more curious about a simpler issue... An area which I wonder if we the critics may take Lucas somewhat for Granted?

George is a visionary and a world builder. These areas are his great strength, and I would argue that if the prequels did excel at doing one thing, they greatly expanded the ambition, atmosphere, and most importantly... visual style, identity, and palette of the Star Wars universe. His dialogue is stilted and awkward, and he often brought us some outright bizarre ideas (Seriously doing Maul's resurrection in a non-infinities way), but the man no doubt told ambitious stories that impacted things on a large scale and had grand visual splendor.

Historically, the EU material which was created without Lucas has remained 'very' conservative to the look and feel of Star Wars, with a few exceptions. If you read and watch material created before 1999, you see this as a real issue. Everything is tied in on some level to the look and feel of the OT. Imperial things look... well... Imperial with the same gray/black/monochrome sense of design and nothing else. The Naboo Starfighter was so disruptive to the typical style of Star Wars that there was little to nothing like it that existed before 1999, yet now we consider that elegant style seen in the PT to be a relatively normal thing. Honestly, I question if the cast without Lucas will be anywhere near as daring and bold as he was to try new things, even if some of those new things came out of left field and weren't always thought out. The New Mandalorians were a bizarre and wacky continuity busting concept, but they were interesting and their cities were visually striking to see in their own right. Am I alone in my concern that we may not see as much variation without Lucas at the helm, or could this be a real issue, as it often seems to have been in the rest of the EU?

The only times where I feel the EU has taken significant artistic and story risks that are comparable to the way George developed things (and I am NOT commenting on the raw quality of their writing or execution of prose/dialogue, that is an entirely 'different' matter), were titles like KOTOR I and II, and the old Tales of the Jedi comics. I feel that almost everything else in star wars is derivative of the 6 films visually.

Feel free to disagree with me on this, but I think it's a question worth seriously debating. What will Rebels be like without George Lucas being involved anymore? Will the stories simply be better with new blood (likely), or will they have problems we did not forsee (still possible, IMHO, but I hope not)?

Lucas often does things that are kind of crazy. They killed the enjoyment of the prequels for many, but in the words of Optimus Primal from Beast Wars "Sometimes, crazy works."

 

I think your understanding of Lucas' position is dead on, and I agree.

I also think it'll be different now, and maybe someone will genuinely go out on a limb to pick up George's mantle as a worldbuilder. Until now, I'm betting his existence has been a bit of an umbrella that keeps anyone from straying too far, just because they know that he holds veto power. I think now we'll see some people contribute great new stuff to the series... but also, some bad stuff, and some stuff that doesn't fit. It'll be nice if they can establish things so that everybody really does have to consult with people like Leeland Chee, and if proposed changes to the universe are actually treated with some reverence.

But at the same time, I think the world has enough building blocks to make some great things out of, and in a way, I feel that's exactly what franchises should be. If we can keep franchises in their proper place and avoid the need to constantly break new ground within them, but instead just make little changes and explore new set pieces but keep everything anchored to the core of the franchise, then that keeps hope alive for something very important: New IP. Instead of having to go into an existing world to tell a groundbreaking story and risk defying established elements of that world, writers and visionaries should be encouraged to make their own myths and cultivate new franchises of their own, and we as consumers need to encourage that with our dollars. That's what's missing from the entertainment world today, with videogames being the only medium that has been willing to take up that mantle.

 

HEDGESMFG

I absolutely agree with you regarding Lucas and the void that he leaves behind. We often take GL for granted, and are quite quick to point out his faults and weaknesses while oftentimes giving him too little credit for carefully crafting the vast and wonderful universe that is Star Wars. It is truly a work of art. Without George's vision, the EU and the television series simply could not exist. Yes, by allowing other writers, artists, and producers to take part in his sandbox, the SW universe was allowed to expand and become enriched, and for that we should all be thankful. I find your sentiment about Lucas being the primary individual willing to take the creative risks necessary to allow the universe to evolve to be very noteworthy. Looking at the EU, I have to agree; much of the EU works that take place in the eras around the time of the films and directly before and after them tend to be highly derivative, and often go out of their way to homage the trilogies. Even going as far back as the Old Republic era. Take Darth Malgus, for example. His appearance is pretty much meant to evoke Darth Vader. Then there's the Sith Emperor, Vitiate, pretty much a rip-off of Palpatine, with powers that can rival what Sidious showed in Dark Empire. The EU rarely gave us something truly innovative in style or appearance since Lucas brought the prequels to life; the Yuuzhan Vong of the NJO come foremost to mind amongst unique designs. I also agree that the KOTOR games also broke new ground that TOR and other Old Republic EU built upon. They were able to stand on their own without having to depend on the draw of the films.

Like you said, Lucas wasn't afraid to take risks, and we saw that in TCW with the Mandalorians. So do I think that Rebels will be lacking in terms of creativity and pushing the envelope of world-crafting? Well, I for one am optimistic that the new crew, Weisman, Kinberg, and Filoni, can pull it off. They are very reverential of the Star Wars universe, and I think Filoni in particular will be more respectful of the EU with Lucas gone. Disney's new "Story Group" headed by Leland Chee and Pablo Hidalgo should play a key role in sorting out continuity issues and may now have the final say in ensuring consistency amongst stories, rather than Lucas. But as you said, this isn't a continuity debate, so I will leave it there. The Dark Times is a great era with far, far less EU built around it than the Clone Wars and other eras immediately around the timeframe of the films, so there should be a lot of room for creative storytelling involving plenty of never-before-seen characters.

I like PraenomenCognomen 's sentiments as well, and I think he's right on the money about the need to keep franchises* anchored to a key core, rather than constant rebooting; Star Wars is so expansive that it is uniquely able to explore so many different facets of the universe without losing its luster. Of course, this requires the freedom to be creative, and I hope that Lucasfilm will keep breaking new ground in storytelling and world-building so that the universe we all know and love will stay fresh and exceptional. To that end, I have the utmost confidence that Rebels will be able to stand on its own and that we will all be proud to have it as part of the SW franchise.

*I also agree wholeheartedly about videogames being the only true medium willing to build worlds today. The best example that I can personally come up with Mass Effect, a franchise that's derivative of many famous sci-fi franchises, including Star Wars, but was allowed to grow on its own, and the result was an extensive and rich universe with dozens and dozens of memorable characters and locales. It is a truly immersive videogame experience and character interaction is a very big plus. I don't see the creation of entirely original universes in the film industry anymore.

 

I wouldn't even say KOTOR was particularly original - in some key ways it was, in many others it was derivative of stuff we've already seen. I would say KOTOR 2 did more in the way of originality.

TOR is especially guilty of making its whole universe feel derivative of the PT-OT eras, despite taking place thousands of years earlier.

Rebels will probably feel derivative of the OT and possibly PT eras as well, and IMO it should. It makes sense to show transitional designs (or even fully "modern" OT designs, such as TIE Fighters). The Naboo starfighter was an original design unlike any of the fighters scene before it, but going forward past TPM, we definitely saw an increase in derivative designs -- the Jedi starfighters, the ARC fighters, the venators and acclamators, the V-wings, and in TCW: older models of Y-wings and the Z-95.

Taking inspiration from existing models is not bad, if it makes sense within the context of the universe. It made sense for Republic ship designs to become increasingly reminiscent of Imperial designs, given that the Republic becomes the Empire. It doesn't make sense though (IMHO) for characters thousands of years before the PT and OT to run around dressed like Han Solo, or look just like Vader, or conveniently have the scoundrel character with a wookiee sidekick, or have star destroyers. In KOTOR the ships designs felt fresh and original, in TOR they felt like the OT (at least on the Imperial side), which was weird IMO, since TOR was closer to KOTOR in time.

And Lucas did rip himself off on occasion, such as wanting a replacement for Maul in TCW and introducing his brother who was conveniently given a double bladed lightsaber.

Again, being derivative or inspired of existing designs is fine - and even should happen - in appropriate situations, such as showing the evolution of designs. Even if you look at the evolution of the U.S.S. Enterprise in Star Trek, there are still certain similarities that all ships that have carried the name have. No matter how much is changed about the ship, enough is retained in common to make the ship instantly recognizable. And when established what the Enterprise-A and Enterprise-D looked like and had to come up with a design for the Enterprise-C, they pretty much split the difference in creating a ship with similarities to both. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Making a derivative design based on existing designs makes sense in that regard.

Having Sienar Fleet Systems seem to always throw their lot in with the Sith Empires and having every Sith Empire - even those thousands of years old - fly its version of TIE Fighters makes less sense, IMO. They commit treason every time a Sith Empire emerges it would seem, except ironically they unknowingly back the Sith when Palpatine turns the Republic into an Empire. How does this company not get shut down?

And then aside from the Yuuzhan Vong, there is the issue of nobody involved in Star Wars - Lucas included - really coming up with a good villain that isn't a Sith (or Sith-like). Jump forward 10,000 years after ROTJ and tell a writer to come up with a new Star Wars story - give them complete freedom to do whatever they want - and something tells me they will default to telling another tale of Jedi vs. Sith, with the Skywalker legacy somehow fitting into it.

That's a reason I'm hoping that Rebels can stand on its own merits as largely a war between the secular elements of the Star Wars galaxy. Palpatine and Vader could definitely be there, since Palpatine is the one running the Empire after all. But make it largely about the Rebels with their fleet going toe to toe with the juggernaut Imperial Navy, with its non-Sith commanders. Don't throw a whole bunch of Jedi into it, make them the main characters, and then load it with lightsaber battles with Vader, secret apprentices, and "assassins."

 

^
Star Trek is not allowed in this dojo!

 

Pfffft. If there wasn't an outside world of non sci-fi/space-opera things, perhaps this would make sense.

"OK, there aren't enough spaceships to go around, so we're rationing. You can only like ONE group of spaceships!"

 

But but... Star Wars is derivative!

 

Regarding whether Rebels will feel more like PT or OT, I think TCW already brought the feel substantially closer to OT than PT, and with Filoni still in charge I'm hoping and suspecting that Rebels will continue in that direction.

 

I call bias in that interview.

 

Adding to what I said, perhaps KOTOR's central plot is very much in the vein of classic Star Wars, and the visual style is far more conservative than what we saw in Tales of the Jedi (whose only real visual resemblance to the rest of the universe is the use of lightsabers!), but none-the-less, there were some pretty cool and interesting ship designs and planetscapes, and I think Bioware allowed far more creativity in the visual department. I also truly love KOTOR II and see it as one of the most unique and finely crafted entries in the non-film universe (Play the modded expanded version if you can, when "complete" the game feels every bit as rich as KOTOR I, if not more so).

The Old Republic goes back to being much more blatantly derivative (complete with clone armor), so note that I didn't mention it specifically.

I also wish to note that, due to the era, and the long absence of visual material from this era, OT callbacks are both welcome and expected. In fact, seeing PT elements like "Imperial City" in OT time periods is quite exciting to think about, really. All the same, I just came to realize that, for all the hate George gets, he's still created some brilliant work 90% of the time, work by which I happily forgive that flawed 10% for, and to some extent, I feel I will miss his contribution. Even Ep VII-IX will still have his outline. Rebels will be the first non game/novel/comic Star Wars in a long time without his direct contribution. I hope that the team works to both honor 'and' expand the universe it has been handed, for this may have far more impact in how we percieve the two trilogies than even Episode VII might.

Still, I look forward to Rebels, and I truly hope it improves on what TCW brought us and becomes an outstanding show. No doubt, there is great potential and oh so very much to be excited about.

 

Can never have enough of Imperial Centre!

 

Even though we don't know too many details yet, I'm really looking forward to Rebels (not as much as the new movies to be honest, but still).

Come on Han old buddy, don't let me down.

 

I'm looking forward to Rebels more than the movies because it is new Star Wars every week rather than new Star Wars every couple years.

 

I could be with you on that if Rebels matches up to the ST like TCW matches up to the PT. It'll be a harder decision for me if ST is more on par with the OT as I suspect it will be.