Lit Bright Sith - Should we see them outside of the Old Republic?

I always hear "light side Sith".

 

I could call them "LIght Sith" but that's quite possibly the most unimaginative name humanly possible.

 

Which is as close as getting to the point as anything but we need to make it very clear here that the PC examples from TOR are very much dark side characters. "Light" for Sith still falls pretty low on the metaphorical scale of good/bad that we're dealing with. Marr and Vowrawn might defy conventions but they're still Sith. Likewise for Kallig, should the path be chosen. They're still not good people. They just have distinctly less personally selfish motives. In this case, the preservation of an Empire.

 

To clarify (as I have not played TOR), was the point made earlier RE: the TOR Sith characters being "light sided" actually correct? Do they believe that the Force's true nature is of harmony and peace? Or are they, rather, people who believe the dark side can be used for good?

(Note: I am not at all comfortable in assuming that "TOR LIGHT SIDE POINT = actually of the light side")

EDIT: Ah, ninja'd. Thanks Alyx.

 

...Mara was more of a Dark Jedi than she was a Sith, even counting the later shift away from Dark Jedi as a "thing".

To be entirely accurate, Mara was a trained Force-sensitive assassin/spy with a lightsaber.

This is what a Grey Jedi is.

"Light Side Sith" isn't seen outside of SW:TOR - a product in a medium where Anything Goes for the sake of player fantasy fulfillment - because it's a paradox. The Sith Code is the apotheosis of Sith philosophy, and its promotion of personal worth, passions, and implied conflict clash by necessity with the sort of selflessness and surrender to a higher power that typically comes to mind when people think "light side".

Even "Light Side Sith" in SW:TOR aren't "on the side of angels", they're out for themselves. They're just ethical enough about it to not slag innocents standing in their way.

It's really not. There's this one brief fetch quest on Coruscant you get as a Republic character that has you stealing records for some revolutionaries. The choice that earns you light side points has you accepting a bribe from a senator and delivering forgeries. Meanwhile, helping the revolutionaries with a corrupt government somehow earns you dark side points.

"TOR LIGHT SIDE POINT" is more like Lawful Neutral than anything.

 

Repentant Sith?

I like the idea of Sith struggling with Sith philosophy and the light side, even as a regular occurrence in a Sith's development. If the dark side is just "you get tainted, your automatically evil no backsies" except for author X's pet character it makes it look that the dark side is just a mental illness that infects you rather than a result of the characters choices that they have agency with.

 

Brotherhood of Darkness. One Sith. The idea finds some iterations throughout galactic history. At least, if we're talking about Sith who are concerned with abandoning some of the pettier aspects of Sith culture.

“Sith are evil.

The Sith philosophy is evil and encourages evil in its participants. We can get into endless philosophical discussions about whether anything is actually evil or actually good but if we are speaking from our modern, western view on the concept of evil then the Sith clearly qualify. They are encouraged to put the personal over the group, power over compassion and to judge everything’s worthiness to survive on its ability to fight for that survival. Mercy, sympathy, generosity, these are seen as weaknesses. Anger and rage are seen as strengths. These are not people most of us want to work with or have as neighbors.”

“In the Star Wars universe, followers of the Sith philosophy genuinely believe that these things we deem evil, are actually in the best interests of a society. They look at the disorder, corruption and infighting of the Republic and they scoff. ‘What those people lack,’ an Imperial thinks, ‘is strong leadership.’ ”

That's Daniel Erickson, in one of the few good quotes I could pull up about the topic. Sadly, many of the best were lost when the forums reset but not even the writers treat the LS/DS scale as a representation of the Force itself.

A "light" Sith, to quote Erickson in another interview .."is going to try to make his horrible screwed-up country better". This boils down to excising the practices that make them weaker and less united. What it doesn't mean is using the light side of the Force or anything like that.

 

People keep bringing up the Sith like they're somehow WORSE than Dark Jedi.

Which doesn't fit what we've seen.

We've seen hundreds of Jedi fall and the Jedi Code is no more "pure" than the Sith Code is evil.

We've also seen dozens of Sith redeemed.

I'm merely suggesting we see some who don't become Jedi or abandon their force powers.

This is from an in-universe perspective.

From an OUT OF UNIVERSE perspective, nothing prevents anything like this happening just because the writer says so.

 

Still not light side. The various iterations never really set aside the tenets of the Code. Yes, you can be less petty and still be Sith. But "light side" isn't just about being less petty.

 

The Sith Warrior can have the option of basically saying that the Force is the Force like Vergere at one point--ignoring the Dark Side outright.

The Sith Acolyte treats the Force like magic and doesn't pay attention to either.

A major plotline is discovering a Sith cult which attempts to follow the Light Side of the Force (and is devoted to Revan). You can join them and have your characters pledge allegiance to the Light Side and reject the Dark Side...or turn them in.

Jaesa Williams, a Sith Warrior Companion, has the Jedi power to see people as they truly are. As a result, the Sith want her assassinated because she can find all of their agents.

The Light Side Sith confronts her and she is stunned by the Light Sith as he calls into question everything she's ever learned about them.

Later, Jaesa attempts to form a bond with other Sith dissidents so they can found a Sith Order based on positive emotions and decency.

However, this fails rather epically.

(You can also corrupt her to the Dark Side)

Likewise, the Sith Acolyte class has a Jedi Knight who attempts to create a Light Side Sith path--and may fail miserably if you corrupt her or remain good otherwise.

The Light Side Sith Warrior has the possibility of also going on a spirit quest to overcome their inner demons. The Sith Acolyte can become a member of the Dark Council and attempt to reform the Sith.

In general, a good part of the game is the Sith Warrior/Acolyte dealing with incompetence and backstabbing which weaken the Empire as a whole. Likewise, Republic soldiers and Jedi who are deeply shaken in their beliefs by meeting Sith who AREN'T psychopaths--as there's actually plans for genocide being plotted in certain corners.

 

You're fundamentally misunderstanding what "light" means in this conversation and, by proxy, what it means for TOR. Not even a "light side" Sith in TOR sets aside the tenets of the Sith Code. They just don't, say, kill for the sake of killing.

 

Light Sith warrior may attempt to reform the Empire.

Light Sith Acolyte is more forthright and just intends to take over so he can reform it by RULING IT.

 

I think it's also important to remember the Sith were corrupted by Dark Jedi and existed before the Jedi Order.

Their way of magic and philosophy predates their corruption into Anti-Jedi.

 

...they are, and it does?

It only seems otherwise because post-RotJ is chock full of Dark Jedi courtesy of the Bantam era. Even then, Dark Jedi are more Saturday morning cartoon villains than true menaces, and I say this as a fan of Jerec.

Name me one who isn't Galen, Starkiller, Vectivus, or Gravid.

The first two are video game characters, Vectivus is distinctly of the dark rather than the light, and Gravid is nearly unique.

 

Reforming the Empire ≠ turning it to the light side of the Force. Malgus tried to reform the Empire.

EDIT: As a side note, I don't think you have a solid grasp on the Cult of Revan's tenets. They profess an allegiance to both the light and dark side. They are not lightsiders.

 

And Malgus was pure evil.

 

You're missing the point. The Light Side warrior is evil as well. They are just a different shade of evil. Why are they evil? They are evil, necessarily, by being Sith.

 

...yes? That's what I was saying?

 

And I'm telling you that I don't find a fundamental difference between Kaan and TOR's notion of a light Sith.

EDIT: To be more clear, I think you're letting the linguistic connotations of the term "light" flummox you a bit.

 

Uh....huh.

And wouldn't this mean Jedi, by definition, are....good?

 

"It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it."

Those weren't Jedi, dude. Those were idiots.

 

Not quite comparable. A light Inquisitor or light Warrior in TOR is still evil because of the tenets they believe in and the power they ally themselves with. Merely wanting to reform the Empire into something less backwards doesn't turn them into saints. It turns them into villains with a smart sense of self preservation.

 

The term "Dark Jedi" comes from Zahn thinking that "Jedi" is a species.

 

More like he thinks of "Jedi" as a classification. Which is entirely accurate.

 

Huh?