PT Were the Clone Wars inevitable without Palpatine?

I understand why the Target was Naboo, why Sidious picked it. I just am not sure I agree with the premise it was the Trade Fed that was being Taxed. After all the opening crawl says it was only a dispute with the trade routes on outlying star systems, not all trade routes. If y ou're the Republic you're going to Tax all Trade Routes, not just Outlying systems. Naboo being one of the Outlying Star Systems was the Target of the Trae Fed (as per Sids). As I said, I was always under the impression that Sids got the Trade Fed to raise the Taxes on the outlying systems and when the Naboo refused they were blockaded which was all inline with Sids plan in the first place. Do you happen to have any Lucas quotes about the how's and why's of the blockade? I am really not interested in EU explanations because if you follow what Lucas says, Boba Fett is truly dead lol... Any insight would be appreciated...

 

In the dialogue from TPM, when Palpatine addresses the Senate he explains that a Tragedy has occurred that started in the senate with the taxation of Trade Routes... I took it as he was saying that part of the tragedy was the taxation, he would only see this as a tragedy if the taxes were being put on the Naboo to pay, not the Trade Fed. Further in to those scenes after the Queen makes her statement, and Valorum is getting "advice" from his aides, Palpatine tells the Queen of the Bureaucrats that are on the payroll of the Trade Fed and Valorum then makes a decision favoring the trade fed. Palpatine obviously is aware this is going to happen and is obviously manipulating the Queen into the no confidence vote, but, if the Trade Fed was in charge of the Bureaucrats than surely there is no way they would let themselves get taxed on Trade Routes.

I admit that I could be wrong on this as it is not spelled out for certain in the movie, and I haven't ever seen anything from Lucas explaining. But as I stated earlier, it was always my assumption that it was the Trade Fed taxing others that led to the blockade... Either way the point of the blockade was to put Palpatine's plan into action and get control of the senate through a sympathy vote. The plan only Palps knew and the Trade Fed were his patsy's.

 

I don't have Lucas quotes on that. What's in there is what's in the films, the screenplays and the novelizations. I didn't go into the EU, since you haven't read it.

No, what said was this...

PALPATINE: "Supreme Chancellor, delegates of the Senate. A tragedy has occurred on our peaceful system of Naboo. We have become caught in a dispute, you're all aware of, which began right here with the taxation of trade routes, and has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppression of the Trade Federation."

What he is saying is that the act of taxation led to the Federation taking drastic steps to try and undo that, by blockading and invading Naboo itself. The Bureaucrats that Palpatine speaks of is in reality his right hand in the Senate, Mas Amedda, who on his orders, forced Valorum to concur with Lott Dod and Aks Moe's motion to form a committee to investigate the accusations that Padme just made. This was due in part to a scandal that Palpatine instigated in order to weaken Valorum's credibility and political standing. Dod, also in Palpatine's pocket, made the objection knowing full well that the Senate would order a larger contingent of Jedi to force a resolution and then arrest Gunray.

 

Well first of all, that is not what he said...

"Supreme Chancellor, delegates of the senate, a tragedy has occurred... which started right here with the taxation of trade routes... and has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppression of the Trade Federation. (Trade Fed Senators cut him off).

Clearly he says the tragedy started with the taxation of trade routes, and it would only be a tragedy from his point of view if the naboo were forced to pay the taxes. If the taxes were on the Trade fed, then that would not be a tragedy and he would not of included it. Why should he care if it's a tragedy that the Trade Fed had to pay taxes.

I get none of what you explained from that.

Instead it makes more sense that the Trade fed, backed by Sidious, and using their Bureaucrats, passed a motion in the senate that taxed the trade routes that the outlying systems used. That tax going to the Trade Fed cause it was their trade Franchise, no different than the Banking Clan charging fees to use their banking institutions...

The quote is taken directly from the movie as I put it into my DVD to make sure I wasn't wrong...

 

Initially, in order to promote trade in the galaxy's far reaches, the Republic chose not to tax trade on trade routes in the Outer Rim. This led to an economic boom, but it also led to the Trade Federation gaining a monopoly in shipping. The Trade Federation therefore became a target for pirates and privateers, so they appealed to the Senate for help. The Senate agreed to let the TF augment their droid defenses, but decided to start taxing the trade routes as a tradeoff. The Federation protested this, because such taxes would cut into their profits. And so, in the guise of Sidious, Palpatine coerced them into blockading Naboo to show their displeasure.

 

The army was quite big and was able to conquer a planet with ease. Seems a bit much to use against pirates and smugglers. Why would you need tanks and so many footsoldiers?
And why are the TF dealing with smugglers? Wouldn't that fall on the Republic police?

Aslo, if pirates and smugglers are that big a problem, what does the rest of the republic do?
Are the jedi the only protection they have?

The Kamino people were in the buisness of making clone armies and it seemed they had considerable experience in doing so. So I doubt their last clone army was very long ago.
If they hadn't had a client in 20 years they would have gone out of business. And Dexter said that they were cloners and good ones. Indicating that there are other cloners out there.

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Except that you are again using EU information and you said before that the answers are IN the films.
IN the films, Obi-Wan is never proven wrong so his statement can be taken as correct.
Thus Dooku is a possible suspect and the Jedi would have reason to think he had something to do with the clone army. Jango not knowing Sifo-Dyas name further throws doubt on Sifo-Dyas having anything to do with it.
Based on what is IN the films, Dooku posing as Sifo-Dyas, deleting the Kamino file and hireing Jango fits all avalible evidence and makes perfect sense. If this is what really happened then the Jedi know enough to at least SUSPECT Dooku of being involved.

If Lucas intended Sifo-Dyas to be a red herring that made it easier for the Jedi to accept the army.
Why have Obi-Wan says that as far as he knows Sifo-Dyas was already dead when when the army was ordered? If the jedi accept what Obi-Wan says, and there is no indication that they don't. Then they know that the army was ordered under a false name so no difference with "Sido-Dyas" a fake Jedi. If this is what Lucas wanted, then why didn' Obi-Wan say that Sifo-Dyas was killed five years ago. That makes it possible that he did it. And Mace could ask Yoda if Sifo-Dyas could have done such a thing and Yoda could say it is possible. Jango could also say that he knows Sifo-Dyas name. This makes it seem that a Jedi ordered this army and so the jedi are somewhat less carefull with it.
I don't know, it just seems that IF Lucas wanted the audience to know that the Jedi think it was Sifo-Dyas then he is working against that goal by having Obi-Wan and Jango say what they said.

Bye for nwo.
Blackboard Monitor.

 

I have some problem understanding the republic's reasoning here.
The TF face a problem from pirates and the republic won't deal with the problem but allow the TF to solve it on their own.
But then they decide to tax the TF as well. If the republic were the ones who gave protection to the TF ships then it makes sense that the TF are taxed.
The republic is doing a service to the TF and the TF pay for that service. But here the TF do the service themselves and then they have to pay the republic for not doing anything?
The droid army would cost money and on top of that they are taxed?
I don't really blame the TF for getting angry. Had I been them I would have told them to enforce law and order or they'll stop trade on all unsafe trade routes.

It would make a bit more sense for the senate to see all the money the TF makes and decide they want a slice of that. Or that they want to break the TF's monopoly.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

The problem here is that once again we see and it is established in TPM that the Bureaucrats actually rule the senate, and the Trade Federation owns those Bureaucrats. How in the world would a tax get through such a corrupt senate that is owned by the Trade Fed (and assuming other economic powerhouses). I just can't see that a possibility. There's no way the Trade Fed would allow a tax to be imposed on themselves through the senate.

It makes more sense that Sidious made a deal with the Trade Fed to raise the taxes on the trade routes that the outlying systems needed to trade with other systems. Basically you can look at it that the Trade Fed established a system of Toll Booths on the Galactic Highways of trade. Sidious gets the Trade Fed to agree cause the trade fed is greedy, and as we know "Greed can be a powerful ally". The Trade Fed wouldn't have agreed to a bargain that puts a tax on themselves and sit by and let it get passed the senate.
Those systems affected by the tax refuse, so, the Trade fed says that if you aren't going to pay, you can't use our trade routes, and picks a planet to blockade as an example for others, Sids obviously has a say in which planet to blockade. The blockade itself was legal to a point, it was the invasion that was illegal. That is why the Chancellor sent the Jedi to reach a bargain on the blockade, the senate knew of the blockade and the Chancellor was trying to secretly resolve the situation because he had no power in the senate to try and stop it, because as I have pointed out the Bureaucrats owned by the Trade Fed stopped him at every chance.

With all that said, again I will say I could be wrong, maybe Lucas intended it the other way. However I have seen nothing that says it was a Tax on the Trade Fed. Instead it makes more sense to make the big greedy corporation the bad guy because the greedy corp is trying to shake down the small everyday guy. It has always been my understanding that it was the Trade Fed imposing the Tax and blockading one of the planets that refused to pay. Obviously Sids picked the planet that the Trade Fed was going to blockade.

 

The Republic was worried about the TF becoming a strong military power of its own, which is why the TF was extremely limited in what sort of armaments its ships could have.

Edit: mikeximus, Palpatine was the one who first proposed the taxation. He suggested it to Valorum, who put it through to committee. Palpatine's manipulations allowed the vote to go through.

The taxation wasn't on the TF per se, but since they had a monopoly on Outer Rim shipping anyway, it might as well have been. The TF didn't want to pay the Republic taxes on the goods they shipped, which was why they were upset at the new taxation laws.

You seem to have a slight misunderstanding on who was being taxed here. The TF was not imposing the tax on the worlds they served; the Republic was taxing the shipment of goods in the Outer Rim. Naysayers in the Senate were worried, however, that the TF would attempt to offset the cost of those taxes by simply raising the prices for their services, thus shifting the burden of tax onto the worlds themselves.

 

As I have said I will leave room for being wrong, but everything I've posted from the movies suggests that it was the Trade Fed taxing the Trade Routes and not the Republic taxing the Trade Fed. The layout you give and others have given sounds like EU. I don't give EU much leeway because they have fouled up stories before. ie The original story behind who erased the kamino files and ordered the clone army. Lucas intended it always to be Dooku who did it and pretended to be Dyas, but sense he cut the explanation out of E3 the EU got a hold of it and put in some convoluted explanation. Which your explanation (if it's from EU) above comes across as well.

Agree to disagree I guess... Great debate though, I love it!

 

It may have first come from movie novelizations rather than other tie-in media.

 

Even if that's true, the novelizations allow a certain amount of creativity on elements not covered 100% in the movie itself. So I have hard time even allowing that into what I consider Star Wars. I am not trying to say EU sucks either. If others like it and allow it as part of what they want the Star Wars story to be, then it is not my place to say they are wrong. It is just my personal preference that Star Wars is Lucas' world. It is why I am conflicted on the Sequel Trilogy to come, I am not sure how I am going to handle it. If Lucas came out tomorrow and said "the trade fed was being taxed by the republic" then I would accept it as truth, but for now, the movie itself as a stand alone, leads me to think different.

 

The quote is essentially the same as what I posted from the script, save for "Caught in a dispute", but the rest of which is accurate. Meaning that it began in the Senate with said taxation of the trade routes. The taxation was hurting the Federation, not helping it. I know it doesn't make sense to you, but that is the story. For years, the Trade Federation controlled the routes to the outlaying systems without being taxed. The Senate opted to put a stop to that. As a form of protest, they invaded Naboo. That's what lead to the Clone Wars. All those businesses were tired of the corruption in the Senate as it affected their businesses. That's why Palpatine says to Anakin that, "All those who have power are afraid to lose it."

 

But again I don't quite follow the Senate's thinking here.
They have a problem with piracy and travel is no longer safe. But they won't do anything to solve that problem themselves. So the TF says "If you won't deal with these pirates, can we at least put guns on our own ships so we can defend ourselves?" The Senate says "Go ahead but we'll tax you for it."
So the Senate can't be bothered to do anything about these pirates but will allow the TF do do it themselves but the TF will then be taxed for their troubles.

Isn't maintaining law and order and ensuring the safety of it's citizens the Senate's job?
If the Senate don't want the TF to get too well armed why doesn't it deal with the pirates themselves?
Also, why call it a tax on trade routes when it really is a army tax. The TF is taxed because it has it's own army.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

It's not just having blasters, it's having an army of Battle Droids which can easily be programmed to go beyond simple defense and into subjugation. That's like having the National Guard escorting armored cars, or even your shipment from Amazon. It's overkill. Given what ultimately happens, those fears were proven correct. The Federation abused its power through the use of an army.

 

Without Palpatine's involvement it wouldn't have happened right then and there, but I'm guessing the conflict was inevitable much like Judgment Day in the Terminator movies.

 

I too still maintain the Clone Wars would happen regardless it's simply the Palps sped up the process NOT that he caused it all together.

 

Considering it was his apprentice Dooku that hired the Prime Clone for the Clone Army in the first place - without them, it might not have been a Clone War - but a Something Else War.

 

There wouldn't even be a war because as Qui-gon said, "These Federation types are cowards". So either Qui-gon is wrong and they're not cowards, or he is right and they needed someone to motivate them. The ten thousand systems rallied to the cause because a Sith Lord encouraged them to do so.

 

Really? How? Did they cast a spell? Is it really that important to believe that the Jedi had so little responsibility for their own downfall?

Of course it's not the same. I never said it was the same. I was hinting . . . that due to the dissatisfaction of many systems within the Republic, there was always the POSSIBILITY of some kind of internal conflict . . . with or without Palpatine's manipulation.

 

You would need to ask the story's creator the answer to that one. Whether you like the idea or not (and I will say that I do not), that is what the Jedi (Yoda and Mace Windu) discuss in AOTC.

But the tensions are not enough to push those who are unhappy to the level of confrontation required for war without the intervention of Palpatine and later Dooku. Whatever the failings within the operation of the Senate, it's inaction in the case of Naboo has to be ensured by the actions of Palpatine/Sidious "I have the Senate bogged down in procedure" - suggesting that without that manipulation the Senate would act, an implication further emphasised by the Rune arguing that the Queen is right, that the Senate will not go along with their actions. These little scenes also show how unprepared the TF are to go as far as Sidious wishes them to, and that the whole scheme is his idea "This sheme of yours has failed". Everything about tthe TF, what we are told through other's dialogue and what they say themselves, shows an organisation and individuals who are being pushed way beyond their comfort zone. It is quite clear that the level of action they take is wholly out of character for them and only with this deal they have done with their Sith Master are they in the predicament they are in.

Later we see that Dooku is behind getting various factions together to plough their resources jointly into a venture which only through their combined resources, and this only at the instigation and focus of Dooku, could be persuaded to confront the Republic.

What we see, what we are shown and told, is that a) what corruption and inadequacy pervades within the Senate is magnified by the intervention of Palpatine/Sidious (there is every chance that without his intervention the Senate would have responded to the threat the TF posed) b) such a threat was so unlikely that it was basically unthinkable without, again, the intervention of Palaptine/Sidious c) that it required the focus and planning of Sidious and Dooku to combine disparate factions to one singular aim.

 

EU stuff so........... But supposedly 100+ years before TPM the Force changed. The Jedi couldn't sense it as clear as before. Brought up in The New Essential Guide to Chronology. This was mentioned in AOTC as well. Then in Darth Plagueis the Jedi felt the Dark Side on Coruscant for the first time in hundreds of years. The Jedi were still responsible for their fall but the Sith were messing with their perceptions so they couldn't figure out the plan.
The Jedi practiced to fight the old war, the Sith had a plan for a new war.

 

We only know that the dissatisfaction with the ten thousand systems started with Dooku saying that it existed. Meaning there was very little, if any prior to then. Having the Trade Federation get away with their crimes would certainly raise all kinds of dissatisfaction. The same way it does in real life whenever a political decision goes horribly wrong.

 

mikeximus

Dude, that's what I thought, too. The movie implies that the Trade Federation, being greedy and all, and also having an army to enforce their will over weaker worlds, goes around imposing additional taxes on Republic worlds in the outlying systems. And the line where Queen Amidala says that the Trade Fedration has gone too far this time sort of states that this shipping company has been doing this sort of thing for years, and blockading her world because she wouldn't agree to pay the extra taxes was something that they hadn't had to do before.

 

What exactly did they say?

How do you know there was very little dissatisfaction within the Republic before Palpatine began his plotting?