PT Anakin should not have killed the younglings

That's more or less what I was referring to. Good catch on Maul.

 

After what happened in ATOC, I don't see why people get so riled up about Anakin killing children. He had already killed Tusken Raider children. It's not like the Tusken Raiders look like insects. Killing their children is equivalent to killing human children. In ATOC he hadn't even turned to the dark side, though that was a pretty big step in that direction. Sure he was in a rage in ATOC, but in ROTS he had accepted the Sith ways and was doing it save the one he most loved.

Also, it's sad to say this, but killing adults on screen nowadays just doesn't seem that horrible to most people. If we had seen Anakin kill random adult Jedi, then people would've been like: "Oh big deal, tons of clone troopers have already died. We see people get killed every week on police procedurals on TV. People are getting blown up with car bombs in Iraq on a weekly basis, and we hardly care about that." (Yep, that's still going on.) Most people in the audience have just gotten numb to the killing of adults, and it would have seemed like a regular action scene lightsaber duel.

Also, if Anakin only attacked adults, he would have simply been taking on armed combatants who can defend themselves. Unless Anakin was defenseless, the Jedi would have killed him if they knew he was a Sith. That's how it goes in war. We would have understood exactly why Anakin was doing it if he was killing adult Jedi. He was facing a new enemy that he believed were going to kill him once they knew he had joined Sidious. That wouldn't have shown Anakin falling to a moral low point the way his killing of children did.

I guess GL could've done it differently -- first, showing an enraged Anakin killing a few adult Jedi, so it's clear that Anakin is already in a heated state of mind, but I also like what we do see in ROTS. You can see that Anakin is conflicted. Just before he ignites his lightsaber you can see him hardening himself so that he can go through with what he has to do. Seeing him have a couple of cool lightsaber battles with adult Jedi might have just given the scene a more action film feel to it and lessened the impact of what Anakin did.

 

Reminds me of this...

Mostly off screen. We don't see the blade go through him.

 

Except he apparently thought that the killing of Dooku didn't qualify Anakin for Sithdom. It's that Magic Sith Pledge again....

Somehow killing his brother Jedi wasn't enough to show that?

 

That's because Anakin hadn't turned yet. He hesitated. That hesitation and his willingness to not leave Obi-wan behind, is why Palpatine had to work on a plan B. Luke would have pledged himself had he killed Vader.

They were his brother Jedi. Anyone who enters the Temple to begin the training is a Jedi. "Do not hesitate, show no mercy." A true Sith Lord must be willing to kill anyone, even children to obtain their goals.

 

He had to fill his Dark Side meter, only then would he have been strong enough to save Padme.

Well that was the theory.

 

He was under the influence of the dark side.

 

What I want to know is two things -

1. Would people have had such mixed reactions if we didn't see him activate his lightsaber, but still had the scene where Yoda and Obi-Wan point out that the younglings were killed with a lightsaber? Of course leaving it obvious who the killer is

2. Would people have had such mixed reactions if Yoda and Obi-Wan had just pointed out that the younglings died, leaving it ambiguous as to how?

 

Yes, he 'hesitated', which btw, shows that his killing of Dooku wasn't a 'crime of passion' like his killing of the Tuskens was in the previous film. The hesitation shows that he was making a conscious, deliberate decision. This weakens your argument even more, because he's choosing to do an evil thing, and to say that it doesn't count is making up arbitrary rules* in order to fit a conclusion.

As for not leaving Obi-Wan behind, that's another can of worms. Obi-Wan gets knocked unconscious and thus doesn't witness Anakin's killing of Dooku. Very convenient.

*** "Hadn't turned yet" = "turn magic"
"Pledge himself" = "pledge magic"

You mean in the UNLIKELY EVENT OF him killing Vader, his father....???? We'll never know. So tell me: Had he killed the EMPEROR, would Luke have "pledged himself"? To bring up the arbitrary nature of all of this, reflect upon the fact that originally, Anakin was going to join the Sith/the Emperor, right after killing Dooku in ROTS.

Again, you're saying that it would not be enough for Anakin to kill fellow Jedi KNIGHTS, and to be specific, for attempting to kill his old friend/teacher Obi-Wan.

 

Dooku's execution, though, is muddled by a number of things. For one, Anakin's head of state clearly ordered him to act. Now, people will argue that the "I was just following orders" defense doesn't hold, but I think you do need to take it into account to some extent. I don't personally consider any of the members of Seal Team Six to be evil because they killed Osama bin Laden. If we're going to lay moral responsibility, then it has to be at Obama's feet. I feel much the same way about Anakin and Dooku.

Secondly, you have to consider the circumstances. Anakin was on an enemy ship, attempting to rescue the Chancellor, with Obi-Wan unconscious. There is no way he could secure Dooku and get both of his friends out. Moreover, the fact that Dooku has lost his hands doesn't mean he can't do damage. We see Luke use the Force in ROTJ, even when he's completely bound and his hands are immobile just by focusing. Additionally, Dooku's ability to persuade others has made him a threat as much as his combat abilities.

To me, it's simply far too muddled of a situation to make for a convincing turn. It may help to push Anakin down that path, but even Obi-Wan praised him for killing Dooku when they got back to Coruscant.

Except, I think Lucas was making a point -- that Vader (and evil, by extension) is cowardly -- Anakin as Vader only ever targeted those weaker than him -- the children, Obi-Wan as an old man, and then Luke. Moreover, there's very much a sense in ROTJ that Vader believes he is damned, that he is too far gone to be saved, but his belief in the Empire and it's possibility to do good is the only thing that has kept him going. I think that the children's murders are meant to embody this aspect -- not only Anakin destroying his own innocence but also his belief that it's possible to be redeemed. "It is too late for me, son."

 

I never said that it wasn't a conscious and deliberate action. I said that due to his hesitating to do it meant that he was not ready yet.

Dooku was supposed to have killed Obi-wan in order to get Anakin to turn. It didn't quite work. It got the right response up until he hesitated. That hesitation means he's not ready. That's why Palpatine tells him to not hesitate again.

These aren't arbitrary rules. This is how Lucas set it up.

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

"After Darth Sidious' first apprentice is killed, he has to come up with a new apprentice, and rather than coming up with some baby that he trains from birth, which is what he should have done--well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways--he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained. The point is to set up that he turned this one Jedi, so that he could turn another Jedi. It has to be set up that way."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"Palpatine rather hoped that Anakin was going to leave Obi-Wan during the kidnapping, but Anakin is an honorable man and Obi-Wan is his greatest friend, so Anakin insists that he bring him along."

--Ian McDiarmid, Star Wars Insider #82.

"The key issue in these movies is for a Jedi not to use anger when he’s fighting. So the final confrontation here is primarily about trying to make Luke become angry, so that when he fights his father he’s fighting in anger, therefore begins to use the dark side of the Force, and therefore sort of succumbs to the dark side of the Force. In The Empire Strikes Back we had them confront each other and fight together. But in this film Luke has become more mature so that now he knows he shouldn’t be fighting him—that is the path to the dark side. So it’s basically a confrontation between two people and one of them doesn’t want to fight, and the other one keeps trying to push him into it. And then in the end when he gives up and they really do fight, what’s happening there is that ultimately Luke is turning to the dark side, and all is going to be lost."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary, 2004

No, it isn't enough. Anakin as Vader must kill. It isn't enough to kill adults and let the clones finish the children. He must kill them to show no signs of weakness. A hint of weakness and he is useless to Palpatine.

That's because he assumed that it was a clean kill and not a helpless man who was beaten and thus no longer a threat.

 

The novel sums up the role Dooku's death has, pretty well:

"Anakin," Palpatine says quietly. "Finish him."
Years of Jedi training make Anakin hesitate; he looks down upon Dooku and sees not a Lord of the Sith but a beaten, broken, cringing old man.
"I shouldn't—"
But when Palpatine barks, "Do it! Now!" Anakin realizes that this isn't actually an order. That it is, in fact, nothing more than what he's been waiting for his whole life.
Permission.
And Dooku—
As he looks up into the eyes of Anakin Skywalker for the final time, Count Dooku knows that he has been deceived not just today, but for many, many years. That he has never been the true apprentice. That he has never been the heir to the power of the Sith. He has been only a tool.
His whole life—all his victories, all his struggles, all his heritage, all his principles and his sacrifices, everything he's done, everything he owns, everything he's been, all his dreams and grand vision for the future Empire and the Army of Sith—have been only a pathetic sham, because all of them, all of him, add up only to this.
He has existed only for this.
This.
To be the victim of Anakin Skywalker's first cold-blooded murder.
First but not, he knows, the last.
Then the blades crossed at his throat uncross like scissors.
Snip.
And all of him becomes nothing at all.

 

The movie lost me when Palpatine tells Anakin to go and kill all the Jedi and he does it. I mean, he knows that Palpatine is a Sith and that the Jedi had a legitimate reason to want him arrested/dead. I can understand him cutting off Mace's hand so Palpatine would live ('What have I done?') but the fact that he is willing to massacre all the Jedi (including the kids) to save his wife just makes him irredeemable in my eyes.

 

Again, he is not forgiven for his crimes by anyone except the Jedi. He becomes a good man again at the end of ROTJ. He kills the Jedi because the Jedi will kill him for what he has done. They will kill Palpatine as well and with that, Padme and the unborn baby die. Anakin will choose to betray everyone that he cared for in order to save his wife. It is the opposite of what a Jedi is supposed to do. The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.

 

Hmmm... How do we know the Jedi as a whole forgave him? I would change what you said to that we know the Force forgave him. Anakin is allowed to appear at the end of ROTJ because the Force allows it, not because Yoda and Obi Wan do. I guess we can surmise that at least Obi Wan and Yoda forgive him at the end of ROTJ as they look like they accept him when he appears, however, is that because they forgive him because the Force forgave him? I just wouldn't be so quick to say that the Jedi completely forgave him.

The rest I agree with, Anakin was acting to protect Padme, which means he had to protect Sidious.

 

Obi-wan and Yoda are the reason why Anakin appears. Not the Force.

In the rough draft…Ben explains that…if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

--Laurent Bouzereau, explanation from Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 300.

Aboard the second Death Star at the Battle of Endor, Anakin Skywalker lay dying. He asked his son to remove his life-sustaining helmet, so that he could look upon his long lost son with his own eyes. Having saved his son's life, and reclaimed his soul from the dark side, Anakin died and became one with the Force. As he shed his corporeal form, he found the spectral forms of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda ready for his return. Through compassion and selflessness, Anakin discovered the secret knowledge of the Shaman of the Whills, a technique that allowed him to retain his identity in the netherworld of the Force.

Anakin's spectral form looked upon his two children -- the twins Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa -- during the celebration at Endor.

--The Official Site Databank on Anakin Skywalker.

"This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learnt how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity. But it was his 'identity as he was when he died as Anakin Skywalker.'"

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

 

Bump

 

I did say I thought Obi Wan and Yoda did forgive Anakin, and what you posted says that they helped Anakin. Nothing there suggests that the Jedi as a whole forgave him.

As for the Force... Let me ask you this, do you think the Force would allow Sidious or Maul to come back as Force ghosts? It's my opinion that there is no way the Force would allow them too, even if they knew the secret. So I still stand by my opinion that at some point the Force forgave Anakin so as to allow him to use the ability, and I can live with the fact that Obi Wan and Yoda taught him how to take advantage of the Ability. Even in the first posting you put up it suggests that the Force has to allow one to be able to use the ability:

In the rough draft…Ben explains that…if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

Again, it suggests that Sidious and Maul would never be able to become Force Ghosts, that once consumed by the Dark Side you will be lost to the Force as a whole. So there has to be some kind of action by the Force itself to look past Anakin's previous Dark Side atrocities. That would suggest forgiveness by the Force.

 

The Jedi Order as a whole were not able to retain their identity when they died. Qui-gon is the first Jedi to do so and he passed that knowledge on to Obi-wan and Yoda. And last I checked, they're Jedi. It isn't the Force allowing them it is what their mindset is.

Through compassion and selflessness, Anakin discovered the secret knowledge of the Shaman of the Whills, a technique that allowed him to retain his identity in the netherworld of the Force.

YODA: "Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is ..."

QUI -GON: "Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith."

YODA: "Eternal consciousness."

QUI-GON: "The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed."

YODA: " . . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is."

QUI-GON: "You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self."

YODA: "A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become."

 

I'm not disputing any of that as it shows that one has to be taught how to use the ability, but, once again It obviously states that there is a recognizable difference between who can do it and who can't. Who sets those limitations? It wasn't the Jedi. It would have to be the force itself that sets the limitations of who's philosophy can and who's can't use the ability.

In your earlier post it suggests that someone that succumbs to the Dark Side can't become a Force Ghost, who set that rule if not the Force itself? So again I will say that once Anakin repents/redeems himself, the Force essentially forgives him and he is allowed to become a force ghost after he is rescued, taught, shown (however you want to word it) from Yoda and Obi Wan.

Edit: and to add, I don't see anything saying that the Jedi as a whole forgave Anakin, which was the start of the conversation between us. Yoda and Obi Wan do not represent the entire Jedi order.

 

It's not the Force set the rule. The Shaman of the Whills discovered what kind state of mind it takes to achieve something such as this. It is about letting go of your physical self and surrendering to the Force. The Sith cannot do it because their training and mindset makes them believe that such thinking is abnormal and illogical.

 

There is a rule that has to be followed in order to obtain the power. The rule being as you put it "It is about letting go of your physical self and surrendering to the Force. The Sith cannot do it because their training and mindset makes them believe that such thinking is abnormal and illogical". If what you posted is true than someone or something sentient has to set the boundary that you have to have "x" state of mind in order to obtain "y" power, where "x" is the preferred state of mind. Thus by the force if you don't have "x" state of mind than you don't get "y" power.

With the insertion of the Midichlorians and Qui Gonns lines in TPM, we now know that the Force has a "Will". That it is not just some inanimate object. So again it has always been my opinion that through Anakin's obvious Redemption, the Force also had to forgive him in some way as well.

Qui Gonn from TPM:"Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you."

 

The thing with becoming a ghost is that the Jedi weren't aware that it was possible to do this and had spent years living selfless lives. It takes knowledge of it existing and then the surrendering of themselves to the Force. That doesn't mean that the Force put a limit in place. Rather it would be something that occurs from spiritual understanding that to live beyond death is to let go of one's self. The Sith cannot do it not because they're blocked from doing it, but because they're unwilling to turn against their training.

 

Once again, all you are saying is that they had to learn how to use the ability, just as someone had to learn to use Lightning, or a force push. And yes there is an obvious limit in place, you said it yourself, you have to surrender to the force, you have to let go etc etc etc.

Ok so let me put it this way than, why is Surrendering to the Force the preferred way? Why is that way better than than what the Sith do? Just because it is? Is that the answer you would give? That nothing set the preferences in place, it is because it is? I would argue it's the preferred way because that's what the Force prefer's.

Not much different than if you want to get in Heaven you have to do it the way that is preferred. Now I know Lucas has said the Force is not God, I am just making an example that when you have preferred ways of doing something, there is someone or something that sets those preferences.

 

The Sith cannot do because they don't know how to think in any way other than what they know. Take what Palpatine said about Plagueis. Here was a Sith Lord who wanted to cheat death by stopping death and living forever as an immortal. Palpatine points out the irony in that Plagueis couldn't stop his own death. The Sith want to physically live and rule over all. This is different from the Jedi. As Yoda gleans from Qui-gon about the path to immortality, it is no longer having a sense of self. No attachment. To be compassionate. These things are impossible for one who has been raised and seduced by the power of the dark side. If they could wrap their minds around it, then they would not be Sith, but could do it. It isn't the Force preventing them from doing it, it is their own greed and selfishness that is preventing them from retaining their identities.