Lit Thrawn trying to unite and protect the galaxy: do you believe it?

I'm just so confused that in defending Zahn against accusations of making stuff up the evidence used is stuff that's made up?

I dunno

 

It's all made up stuff or what are we trying to get at here?

 

The darktroopers are literally stormtroopers in black armor that are said to be "empowered by the dark side of the Force." What does this mean? Nothing really because they never use the Force and Luke never encounters them, they're on Nar Shaddaa which Luke never visits. Although Luke does fight stormtroopers on Ossus and they might be "darktroopers" because their armor looks black but it could be the coloring (their armor looks white in other panels) and they're never identified as such and they never use the Force.

I guess this is one of those "super battles" though. Looks like he's fighting regular stormtroopers to me. Doesn't seem all that different than Yoda and Obi-Wan in Episode III, but maybe they were overusing the Force too.

Luke fights no one else in Dark Empire 2 except to Force push Sedriss once into a tree (which turns out to be Ood Bnar) and in Empire's End he fights one guy in Bast Castle while Rayf, Brand, and Kam fight three other guys. That's it. But he does Force push the statue of Vader to topple it onto them so maybe he's overusing the Force there!

So where are the literally hundreds of dark siders that Luke fights in Dark Empire 2 and Empire's End?

It's a bunch of baloney to defend Zahn's strawman using the exact same tactics.

 

That they like the Dark Side Elite guys, who also got empowered by the Dark Side, are force users? What else is it supposed to be? Unless they are Dark Side Zombies, which would be pretty epic.

As mentioned they are at Castle Bast in the Audio Drama, which does vary from the comic in several places.

 

You mean this scene where Luke fights Xecr Nist (one guy) while Kam and Brand fight the rest? And then drops the Vader statue on them? Just like in the comic?

 

Hmm.... somehow I recalled that going differently, mea culpa in that case.

 

Walking across molten lava in Jedi Search was another notable incident.

 

Yeah, these are the exact examples I was thinking of, and they're just not what we're talking about here.

See, what you're saying isn't even correct, because in these examples we don't just get their take on it, the narration of the story itself and the events give us another take and show us that these characters are just wrong. Not that they can't be trusted, not that the events happened in some way other than what was presented, the events happened exactly as the narration said it did.

No, he's totally impressed, over and over and over.

You, however, would claim that Luke was an unreliable narrator in this instance, and that Mara wasn't actually impressive, and/or Luke wasn't actually impressed. You would claim that we're not supposed to believe that scene was reliable. Everything's unreliable.

Everyone comes to the conclusion that Thrawn is awesome and scary. Han, Leia, Luke, Mara, Car'das, the entire New Republic Senate...all come to the conclusion that Thrawn is terrifyingly awesome, over and over.

Then you come in and say all these quotes are just opinions from unreliable narrators (and this isn't obnoxious, for some reason). That's been your entire point, that nothing can be taken seriously, that they're all just "certain point of views". It's not a very compelling argument, it's the ultimate catch all cop out in which Zahn didn't actually say anything, ever, so he can't be held responsible for anything written in his books, because it's all up to interpretation, even that which isn't.

You're casting doubt where there is none.

I'm about to go right to ludicrous speed, just let me fly right by if you want.

*inhales deeply*

Are you saying all these things we've been talking about as presented in Zahn's novels are just wrong, despite what he says in interviews? Are you saying Zahn intended you to think that Thrawn actually wasn't trying to protect the galaxy, that Mara and Luke come to a completely wrong conclusion about the Force for some reason, and that every time a character mentions how awesome Thrawn is, they're actually lying for some reason? That's what it seems like you're saying.

See, I would LOVE this.

If Mara and Luke are just wrong...then maybe I've been right about Mara all along, and just about everyone else (including Timothy Zahn, the writer) has been wrong. See, maybe Mara actually was a full on dark sider this whole time like I've been saying, and Mara and Luke are just wrong about it! Bwah ha ha ha!

MAYBE MARA WAS A SITH!

Maybe Mara was trying to turn Luke the entire time.

Wrong. This is Denning logic.

You know what else I'd love?

If Han, Leia, Luke, Mara, Pellaeon and everyone else who kept saying Thrawn was awesome were actually wrong or lying....then maybe I've been right about Thrawn all along, while just about everyone else (including Timothy Zahn) has been wrong. See, maybe Thrawn's genius was a total sham, and Han, Leia, Luke, Mara, and Pellaeon are all just unreliable narrators, and the battles commanded by Thrawn didn't even happen the way the books said they did! Maybe Thrawn was actually just a really good actor (Flim was an impostor of an impostor. See, just as Zahn intended the whole time) with no real substance behind his strategy and tactics, maybe he was just issuing orders at random and pretending there was strategy behind it all. Maybe his staring at art was just him thinking about cute pictures of cats on the holonet. WAIT, maybe he actually was just looking at cute pictures of cats on the holonet, and was just pretending otherwise! Maybe he switched from pictures of cats to art/intelligence whenever someone walked into the room. Wait, maybe Pellaeon was just lying about him looking at art, and he was actually looking at porn?

See, told you Zahn was just telling and not showing. He was doing it intentionally, because there actually wasn't any reasoning behind Thrawn's tactics, you're not supposed to see any brilliance in him, Zahn intended Thrawn to be a total sham. Except no, we know that's not it.

Okay, okay, I've had enough fun with reductio ad absurdum. Carry on, I've gone to plaid.

I tried to avoid this thread, knowing that it would just turn into the same old story.

 

Frankly, and this isn't a criticism, Zahn doesn't write tight enough POVs to really use unreliable narrators at all.

 

We've got Car'das's account of the battle on Dagobah - and Leland Chee's retcon that the battle took place near Dagobah. However, narrators being made unreliable after the event, may not be what you were thinking of.

 

Exactly and in other cases we only get their opinion and not the actual narrations of said events, so we can’t know if they are “right” or not.

Someone else might not find it impressive, Luke did and that is all the scene was trying to get at.

No just things that are clearly just a characters opinion at that moment. Like the Mara looking at the Holo scene and trying to conclude something from it. Sure it seems likely that it is what happened, but how exactly it happened is never seen, so she is only speculating. Whilst if we actually see the whole thing happen and play out we would know what had happened, as it is, we only have Mara guessing what might have had happened.

As you yourself pointed out there is narration and there is POV.

Course not, his methods and acts though are very clearly tyrannical and he is without doubt a villain, he just happens to have a kind of understandable reason for what he is doing, though as Jello pointed out way back on page 1, his method is really flawed.

He makes several mistakes and he gets himself killed by them, so in a way maybe they just happened to a little too impressed by him.

 

In Choices of One - Car'das is thinking that while Thrawn's motives for opposing the Rebellion and supporting the Empire are understandable - only an idiot would think the Empire's doing any better in the "unity" department than the Republic was.

 

Retcons don't really count, yeah.

 

Hi everyone,

First post here - thanks fett 4 for starting this thread, it's an issue I wanted to discuss.

I've got to say I'm a bit sad to see that other contributors here don't share my enthusiasm for T. Zahn's books and short stories. I find that they're very well written and have good, smart plots (not waterproof, but then that's the EU for you.)

About Thrawn manipulating Palpatine, I'd say that's a bit of an overstatement anyway, since the explanation of sorts we get in VOTF (both from Mara and Voss Parck, if I'm not mistaken) is that Thrawn and Palpatine had it planned together all along. The "defending the Galaxy against the Vong" thing is obviously a retcon, but given how the EU expanded over the years, and in particular the development of this concept of discrimination against aliens, there had to be an explanation as to why a brilliant alien warrior leader would choose to join the Empire in the first place. So my take on this is that plot-wise, or continuity-wise, it kinda makes sense (my take is also that the Vong story arc is baaaad and should never had been written, but that's a purely personal taste.)

About Thrawn's personality development now, it's true that there are changes between the principled Force Commander of Outbound Flight and the ruthless GA of TTT. However, there are also some commonalities, e.g.:

• Thrawn can be pretty ruthless in Outbound Flight, for instance when he orders his force to blast the Vagaari ships to bits in the first battle, even though there are hostages in the glass bubbles, or the fact that he's willing to use the nuclear option against the Vagaari or, if need be, against Outbound Flight, - or, most importantly, that he approves of preemptive strikes in general.
• Thrawn can be pretty principled in TTT (as he also is in Crisis of Faith), for instance the fact that he seeks to take planets or systems without casualties (e.g. Ukio and the cloaking device trick, or the asteroid trick above Coruscant).
• Thrawn has no qualms about alliances with the Dark Side from the very beginning and keeps it up from Outbound Flight (where he allies with Palpatine) to TTT (where he allies with C'baoth).

There's more stuff I could list about this, but I'm not writing a PhD here All in all I wouldn't say that Thrawn is ever depicted as a full-fledged noble good guy (except through the eyes of Voss Parck, really), but as someone 1) whose rationale for doing what he does isn't purely based on power lust, 2) is willing to do what it takes to achieve his goals, even if it's ugly. So I'll also disagree with the idea that Zahn is whitewashing Thrawn, I find that he puts him on the villain side pretty much all along, albeit a likable villain.
Lastly, I'd like to point out that there are pretty big chronological gaps between the events described in Zahn's works (I'm talking Zahn here because he's the only one who wrote extensively about Thrawn): Outbound Flight takes place in 27 BBY, then there's Mist Encounter in 19 BBY, and from there we go straight to Choices of One, which takes place 20 years later. What we miss in terms of continuity here is how he evolved during those two decades. I personally find that it makes sense that he'd become a colder, harder person and leader, and I'd really like to read anything that looks into that. If someone can point me to a good fanfic about it (or more), I'd be grateful.
My two cents

 

Maybe he wasn't actually turning but the room was spinning?

It fits even better with the pre-ESB view that's in the ANH novel intro, which kind of makes Palpatine appear like someone who just lives the good life once he's got the ressources, and his underlings actually take over and ruin the galaxy while he's content in his skyhouse or something.

 

The argument seems to be that because Palpatine's one step ahead of the court, and Thrawn's two steps ahead of the court, Thrawn is therefore 1 step ahead of Palpatine, and is therefore manipulating Palpatine.

This sounds about right.

 

Could you answer this a bit more clearly?

Did Zahn intend for us to believe Thrawn was trying to protect the galaxy?

Mara and Luke's conversation....did Zahn intend for us to believe they were wrong?


Now, I'll try to get us back to the future to the thread topic.

Thrawn trying to unite and protect the galaxy. Villain to misunderstood hero. Did you buy it?

It's one thing to appreciate the possibility mentally, it's another thing to really feel it, to really buy into it, to believe.

 

I prefer the term "anti-villain" to "misunderstood hero" - his methods are reprehensible enough that "trying to unite and protect the galaxy" doesn't excuse them.

And yes, I "bought it".

 

fett 4 should have posted a poll. Is it too late for that to happen?

 

Maybe ask a mod?

If the title was changed to "Thrawn wanting to protect the galaxy" - I'd answer yes.

And as Chyntuck said "manipulating Palpatine" is an overstatement.

 

You mean the tragedy of Darth Vader Thrawn

 

Distractions happen very easily.

I don't want to completely hijack and run roughshod all over your thread, but I think the question should be about Thrawn's intention/motivation, i.e. trying to unite and protect the galaxy from the outside threat that would make your blood freeze. I think whether or not he was manipulating Palpatine should be placed aside and perhaps removed from the thread title to clear things up and narrow the focus.

If there's a poll, it should probably say something like "Thrawn trying to unite and protect the galaxy, did you believe it?" or just "did you believe it?", with yes or no as the only choices.

lol I never thought about it like that.

 

Stent actually said there were about a hundred such threats (and in Survivor's Quest, Formbi said this might have been an underestimate).

Mara and Luke consider the possibility that this may be from a Chiss perspective - and that threats that the Chiss would think are blood-freezing might be easy to swat if they ventured into New Republic space. Still - they are reminded that Fel chose to operate with the Empire of the Hand despite knowing the New Republic's capabilities.

I thought the Unknown Regions splatbook did a good job of showing a few of the threats out there besides the Vong.

 

Hi Chyntuck glad you could join

You are right we only have Mara and Parck's word, and Fel as well too.
However Mara, as one of the 3 most important people ever to Palpatine she should be in a position to know whether Thrawns intention were good or not and accepted it. Indeed in SQ she seems postively sad that she was not part of Empire of the Hand.
Fel had defected to the Rebels and was a good guy before defecting back to Thrawn and was no fool so would/should know whether he was being tricked or not.
Parck of course was shown to be the wise old man a sort of non-force Imperial Yoda figure and he helped.

We know in OF that C'boath was evil and clearly the bad guy. In Choices of One and Crisis of Faith, Thrawn is fighting an evil warlord and trying to protect innoncents.
Car'das (a good guy) is still with him and seems to know Thrawn is doing good and helping the galaxy. Though admitedly that could be due to being blinded by love

In the anniversary edition Zahn does state that Thrawn never feels the Rebellion is a good thing which is why he is against it. So it's Thrawn thinking he is doing good rather than just a lust for power as originaly shown in TTT.

Besides Zahn would not be the first author to use a retcon. Sir Arthur Conanl Doyle did with Holmes where he killed him off in the Final Problem (creating Moriarty to do it) but then bringing him back due to demand. Ian Flemming did the same with Bond in in From Russia with Love.