PT Did the PT make Anakin genuinely a tragic hero, or just an even bigger villain?

I think the PT actually severely weakened Anakin as a character. The PT never really goes to any great depths to show his seduction by Palpatine/the dark side. We have small moments, like his slaughter if the Tusken Raiders in AOTC, but otherwise we never really get to see this seduction by the dark side that was so heavily alluded to in the OT. The Clone Wars did a decent job of showing more of the seduction and Anakin's waning faith in the Jedi Order, and without The Clone Wars, there just isn't much to justify Anakin's turn. Once he turns, we get a glimpse of the evil that is Darth Vader with his slaughter at the Jedi temple. However, he went from Jedi hero and champion of the Jedi to evil Sith in the blink of an eye. Lucas wasted two and three quarters of a movie wherein he could have, and should have in my opinion, focused on Anakin's path to the dark side. I think that maybe starting Episode 1 with Anakin as a teen and already in the Jedi Order would have been a great idea. Obi-Wan could have been tasked by the council to take Anakin as a Padawan because Anakin has constantly displayed recklessness and they think Obi-Wan can reign him in. We could see more of Anakin's passions and emotions influencing his actions. Anakin's relationship with Padme could have been public and the council could have been aware, and that could have been one of the things that put Anakin at odds with the council and the order in general. I think that Anakin feeling powerless against the council and his inability to shape his own destiny would be a great catalyst for the seduction, and it would leave him very vulnerable to Palpatine and easy to manipulate.

I dunno - those are just some thoughts

 

Thanks for the heads up.

Except that medical science didn't save her because she died of a broken heart, something that was made clear. She was going to die because of him, not in spite of him. And two, telling a Jedi to not trust in the Force is like pissing up a rope. Very futile. Especially when said Jedi is told that life can be created via the Force and can be resurrected as well.

He didn't in the first film. But his actions in changing history to save Lois caused events to happen that resulted in his negligence.

But it is his fault because he ignored the world. He wasn't at the Daily Planet when it was going down. That's why he says this...

CLARK: "He knew. I heard him. I just didn't listen."

Jor-El knew something would happen like this. That the world would be imperiled while he was being selfish and he would realize his mistake.

JOR-EL: "You have made a dreadful mistake, Kal-El. You have abandoned the world for the sake of private ambition.You did this of your own free will, and in spite of all I could say to dissuade you. Now you have returned here to me for one last chance to redeem yourself. This too - finally - I have anticipated, my son."

Except when one has great power, they have to be above all that. They have to be more responsible than we are and set an example with their selflessness.

Except when Vader tells Luke that together they can kill Palpatine and then rule together as Sith Lords. And then Palpatine arranges a fight between Luke and Vader that's similar to Anakin vs Tyranus, and as soon as Vader is beaten, Palpatine tells Luke to kill him. Only two Sith. A Master and an Apprentice.

And he was seduced by power. Palpatine tells him that the dark side is the pathway to abilities that the Jedi deem unnatural. That it can make him stronger and give him greater focus than the Jedi Arts could. It can even create life, which Anakin is a by product of and it can cheat death. Something Anakin desired since his mother's death.

And Anakin felt that had he been stronger, he would have known sooner that what he was seeing and feeling was her death. At the very least, he wishes that the Force could be used to stop her from dying once he finds her.

Palpatine never said that he did know. Just that the Apprentice of Darth Plagueis did and he's gone now, having never passed it on. And he never said that he was the Apprentice.

Right. Anakin cannot see things clearly. He cannot see that he causes her death. He does not know where she is or why she is dying. He just knows what he sees. "Difficult to see." is what Yoda tells Luke.

 

We cannot see beyond the choices we make. Especially when they're emotional and not rational, something Anakin admitted that he was incapable of doing. He has no reason to believe that he is the cause of what happens. He can only go by what he knows and rather than following his training which says to banish your fears and remain patient, he gives into his fears searching for answers. He kills because it will make him stronger in the Force, which will then lead to the next step which is that the two of them will start turning inward into the Force for the answer. Anakin only completed step one when she dies and when he lashes out at her, it is because she's turned against him and his first reaction is to lash out, which is why we see him lose his cool as Vader like he does.

 

I'm with anakinfansince1983 on this one. I struggle to see Anakin's turn and fall as particularly tragic. To me he's just a bit of an ******* (and not a particularly smart one) who got what was coming to him. Because of this, Anakin for me is made more of a villain and less of a tragic hero by the PT.

 

I think he was clearly being hyperbolic in that scene - pretty much all of his dialogue is clearly over the top and not meant to be literal ("I can't breathe," etc). I mean, he says he "cannot be rational," but after Padme goes through and explains all the reasons they shouldn't be together, he does finally acquiesce and acknowledge that it would destroy them. That doesn't last, obviously, but it shows he's capable of thinking rationally and acting on those rational thoughts.

As for RotS - well, the rational first thought would be that something is going to go medically wrong. Padme herself is the one that tells him that isn't very likely, as nobody dies of childbirth on a planet as advanced as Coruscant (and certainly not a senator with access to the very best medical resources). His second thought, which is to go to the Jedi, doesn't pan out because Yoda doesn't give him concrete advice (worthwhile advice, as it turns out, but from Anakin's point of view, nothing he can act on). He initially does realize that joining Sidious won't be worth the possibility of learning to cheat death, which is why he at first refuses Palpatine's offer and goes to Mace Windu. When he does go to intervene, it's at first with the intention of convincing Windu to take Palpatine alive so he can learn from him. From Anakin's point of view, if that had worked out (since Palpatine hadn't yet mentioned that he didn't actually know how to cheat death), he could have learned to save Padme without killing or hurting anybody.

So while there are other, perhaps more rational, decisions that Anakin could have made along the way, the ones he made up until that point weren't in and of themselves irrational. He doesn't make his first truly irrational decision until after Palpatine kills Windu, when he decides that his role in that death means he's past the point of no return and that he has no other choice but to join the dark side. And again, at that point, he still doesn't know that Palpatine doesn't truly have that power.

As for deciding to stick with Palpatine even after he did find out that Palpatine hadn't learned that power from his Master: well, for one, he's running out of options. It's his own fault, but the fact remains that if he'd admitted his role in Windu's death, the Jedi wouldn't exactly be clamoring to help him, even if he managed to reject the dark side.

Which brings me to the other factor in the "irrational" decisions he made after turning to the dark side, such as choking Padme even though in theory he was trying to save her: the influence of the dark side. Now, Anakin was responsible for the actions he took after he turned, given that he knew he was going to have to do terrible things when he made that decision. But I think he didn't predict that the dark side itself would warp his mind and his perspective. For example, we know for a fact that he wouldn't attack Padme under normal circumstances even if she did decide to leave him - in the Clovis arc, he's upset in a sad way, but not in an aggressive/violent way when she says they shouldn't see each other. So after he turned to the dark side, Anakin no longer had the same viewpoint or priorities - he made decisions that would have seemed irrational to himself only a few hours before.

 

skygawker I don't presume to speak for her, but I understand anakinfansince1983 as possibly meaning "rational" in the substantive sense of "based on empirically plausible assumptions of fact", rather than in the thin sense of "not logically disconnected from his goals". (Sorry if I'm misinterpreting you, anakinfan.)

The implausibility of his assumptions never really bothered me because, look at him, he's a walking, talking (mouthily so!), lightsaber-swinging, sweating embodiment of a supernatural intervention. And he knows it. I understand that element of Star Wars might be quite off-putting, but IMO Anakin can't really be blamed for failing to live up to the standards of scientific/sci-fi plausibility when his very existence pisses all over those standards.

It does make me wonder, though, about the psychological effect of the combination of his background and his knowledge of his birth. How much, and how early, did Shmi tell him? I imagine she put it in terms of, "you were a gift to me." Even so, he probably was acutely aware that looking after him, at least when he was very small, was a great burden on an unwed slave woman, perhaps one which endangered her. It would explain his pathological need to "save" her, which is apparent even in TPM and is, I think, a rather uncharacteristic attitude towards any adult (not least the primary caregiver) for a child that age (even a child as poor and vulnerable as the Skywalkers were). It would also help explain his mistrust of that kind of supernatural power -- he wants to always control it.

 

I see what you're saying. Anakin's fears are understandable, but he doesn't exactly act rational about them. Here's what I would've done...

- Consult the Temple Archives on childbirth. Have Padme go get examined for any condition or aliment that we didn't know about that could potentially kill her.

- Tell Padme to keep her guard up, especially since she's pregnant with a child. Hire a bodyguard to be with her in the event I can't be on the planet.

- Talk to Obi-Wan about how the Jedi view death, maybe ask him how he dealt with Qui-Gon's passing and if he had ever been afraid that Qui-Gon would die at some point.

- Do my job and tell the Jedi everything Palpatine is telling me. So when he goes off on a supposed Sith legend, I quickly inform the Council and ask them what that was about.

If he had done all that and it still blew up in his face and he was left with no choice but to turn, then I would say he would be a tragic hero.

 

If cheating death is a dark side power, and Anakin becomes stronger in the dark side by murdering the innocent, there's a connection.

Wouldn't have helped.

Seems to have nothing to do with the whole dying in childbirth thing.

Probably already happened at least once over the years, not to mention that Yoda gives him this viewpoint explicitly during the film. It's also irrelevant - the point is that the Jedi view on death isn't of use to him.

He does in fact end up telling the Jedi that Palpatine is a Sith. But he's been told, accurately, that he won't be able to learn the power to cheat death from a Jedi. As such, his reticence in this context is of an arguably rational nature.

 

I don't think the dark side takes away choices/diminishes his ability to make them - just that it warped his perspective to the point where he was making choices he wouldn't have made previously. Those choices are still 100% Anakin's responsibility, since he KNEW that he would have to do terrible things, betray the Jedi, etc. when he made the decision to join Palpatine and embrace the dark side in the first place, even if he didn't know all of the specifics. I just don't think we can take them as indicative of his mindset prior to turning to the dark side.

So, yes, I still fault him for what he did in Revenge of the Sith. He could have made different choices, I just don't think it's a matter of "rational" vs "irrational." It's more a matter of respecting Padme's wishes vs. not respecting Padme's wishes. So when you ask if Anakin should have trusted Palpatine to want to help him save Padme after he'd admitted to being a Sith Lord, I honestly don't think it matters. Because Anakin actually did have many good reasons to trust Palpatine - the man had befriended him when he was nine years old, and had always acted supportive of him, and (from Anakin's point of view) shown more trust in him than even the Jedi Council. But to me, that's irrelevant: because *even if* Palpatine had known exactly how to cheat death, and *even if* he was willing to help Anakin save Padme, Anakin shouldn't have joined him.

I also (personally) disagree that Anakin going through all the "rational" steps would have made him more of a tragic hero. Because I don't think there's *any* situation where he would have been left with "no choice but to turn." He always had a choice. Even if he'd tried more logical approaches first than we saw in the movie and they hadn't worked out, he could still have chosen to respect Padme's wishes that he leave the situation alone, and *not* betrayed the Republic and murdered people.

To me, Anakin is a tragic hero because his downfall is caused by his own free choice. His own fatal flaw. If the movies had framed him as being a victim of circumstance who had no other choice, he would be a less interesting character.

Of course, what counts as "tragic" is very subjective, so I can understand why others might feel differently.

 

Palpatine never said that he was Plagueis's Apprentice in the film. Only in the novelization. He only talks about learning the dark side from his Master, but never name checks him. All Palpatine said is learn all there is of the dark side from him, because if he dies, that knowledge dies with him.

Anakin knows that he has no father pretty much at a young enough age. How he came into being isn't made clear until he's in the Temple. His need to fix things comes from the fact that he could fix everyone's problems. He fixed Qui-gon and Padme's problems by winning the race. He was going to fix Jira's cooling unit, but he had to leave so he gave her a portion of the winnings so that she could buy herself a new one. There were other instances that we weren't privy to. His attachment beyond that is that he feels that he should be able to save anyone and when he cannot, it disturbs him. If he's so powerful, why did he fail? Why did he see himself coming back to free his mother and the slaves, if she died? He made a promise to her and he failed to live up to it.

Because it's proof that Palpatine's claims are true. He says that Midichlorians can create life and he is proof of that.

PALPATINE "Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis “the wise”?"

ANAKIN: "No."

PALPATINE: "I thought not. It’s not a story the Jedi would tell you. It’s a Sith legend."


ANAKIN: "Is it possible to learn this power?"

PALPATINE: "Not from a Jedi."

In other words, the Jedi would not have any knowledge of this. Nor would any Jedi Master teach it.

YODA: "Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is."


LUKE: "Master Yoda, you can't die."

YODA: "Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong! Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall. That is the way of things... the way of the Force."

 

That's partially why Lucas changed it. To go against expectations. To create an understandable reason for one to turn their back on everything that they held dear and it ties into Luke's journey as well.

 

Yeah, I don't think the midichlorian thing makes Anakin's turn any more or less "understandable." That was an interesting piece of lore, but I don't think it played any major role in Anakin's decision-making. He certainly never brought it up again.

 

It makes little to no sense that the Dooku portrayed in the ROTS novel would have ever gotten to Jedi Master status in the first place.

It was probably intended to, for whatever that's worth. Otherwise, why even mention it?

 

Nah, the Dooku portrayed in the RotS novel just didn't make any sense to me. He spent the first, what, seventy years of his life being raised among the Jedi on Coruscant, and somehow got the ideal that humans are superior to other species? And I honestly don't see someone with the attitudes portrayed in that book being taught by Yoda and becoming a respected Jedi Master with no one any the wiser that he was actually self-serving and misanthropic the entire time.

However, I agree with you that the way he's portrayed in *other* novels, such as Yoda: Dark Rendezvous and Darth Plaugueis, do flesh out his character and make his turn more understandable.

 

In many ways, Dooku is a much easier character to root for than Anakin (going by the movies only, and disregarding Stover-Dooku's head-scratching weirdness and the EU authors which just see him as a stock villain). He's self-controlled and collected, focused on his goals, in stark contrast to Anakin's immature brattiness and apparent inability to think straight under strain. His misdeeds are apparently motivated by a combination of noble goals and frustration with the Republic's political corruption and the Order's inertia, again in contrast with Anakin's selfish motivations. He's physically elegant in combat, in contrast to Vader's choppy, brutal, animalistic rage.

I almost think George knew full well that fans would have preferred Anakin's fall to be along those lines. Instead, that fall is given to a second-tier villain. And Anakin's fall, by contrast, looks blundering, pathetic, weak, childish. Plain stupid.

I understand why that's off-putting, I really do sympathise with those who strongly dislike it. It took years for Hayden's Anakin to grow on me, and before I started to feel anything but bafflement and annoyance about his fall. But personally I've grown to love the narrative subversiveness of it. And it's brave. There's nothing remotely attractive or mitigatory about his fall; unlike Dooku, who fell gracefully and for good reasons. As skygawker pointed out, Anakin would always have a choice. The Dark Side would always be a bad decision, no matter the cost of choosing otherwise. IMO portraying it as the rational product of straitened circumstances undermines the point of the Throne Room scene in RotJ.

And I've never thought his stupidity detracts from the tragedy. Ajax is a pigheaded narcissist; Oedipus is pretty thick; Antigone is an obnoxiously self-righteous teenager who is vicious towards the few people who try to help her; Lear is an idiot; Macbeth is a traitorous, megalomaniacal scumbag; Raskolnikov has nauseating Nietzschean self-absorption and self-importance. They're still tragic For me, that's a quality into which my personal sympathy for the character, or the extent to which I'm cheering for them, hardly enters at all.

 

I'm not sure I agree Lucas thought fans would prefer an Anakin fall similar to that of Dooku. First of all, we don't even see Dooku's fall in the movies - there are maybe a couple of sentences of explanation, but most of that came from the EU novels, not from Lucas.

And secondly, I don't think he sat down and considered, "okay, what will fans prefer?" Having Anakin fall due to his own fatal flaw, rather than as an "understandable" choice due to external factors, would lessen the impact of what we'd seen in RotJ. The whole point is that it's entirely Anakin/Vader's decision - first he made a very wrong one, and then, years later, he chose a different path. If it had been portrayed as a noble or somehow unavoidable decision, where's the drama? At least to me, Anakin's story is tragic because it could have been avoided in so many ways.

I mean, let's face it. Fans would have complained either way. If Anakin had been given the sort of fall we know Dooku had, I'm sure some of the same people who complain about him being too weak or too emotional would be complaining that it would have been more badass if he'd chosen the dark side independently rather than being guided there by circumstance. Lucas was never going to please everybody.

 

The understandable is why someone would betray all that they held dear. He does it because of his love for someone else who he may lose. At some point or another, when we've been faced with that, there's a small part of us that would gladly give anything to keep it from happening. That's why there is the story of Faust. It plays upon our most basic flaws and insecurities. The Midichlorians part factors in because it gives a reason for Anakin to believe in Palpatine's claims, rather than it looking like he just took his word for granted without proof. Anakin is that proof as he was created by Midichlorians and had no father. By making his reasons relatable, we can see that he was not born to do evil, but that he chose to do it. Hence dropping Palpatine's admission that he is Anakin's father by proxy.