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Full Series Ahsoka Tano: Jedi Knight

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by SateleNovelist11, Jan 17, 2015.

  1. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 53x Wacky Wed/5x Two Truths/29x H-man winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    "so that she may be put to a Republic Military tribunal."

    The implication is that an "unexpelled Jedi" can't be put to a Republic Military tribunal -


    though Tarkin may be trying to pull a fast one on the Jedi and discourage them from thinking "Why not put her to a tribunal without any expelling".
     
  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    "Is it bad to have some morality?" ...iow anyone who does not just HATE the Jedi is "immoral."

    ...plus a lot more highly emotional posts that are about the poster you disagree with instead of the topic.


    LOL predictable. In fact I think I predicted several pages ago that this is the way the thread would go.

    Iron_lord , thanks for posting that dialogue.
     
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  3. Octavian Dibar

    Octavian Dibar Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 6, 2015
    Not to step on anakinfansince1983 's toes, but I have a few observations regarding procedures. Also, since we're only discussing procedures at this point, I won't argue one way or the other regarding the probative value of the evidence. That can be a whole separate dicussion (which seems ongoing anyway).

    First, it's important to note that the Republic Senate has requested that Commander Tano be indicted. Based on the conversation Admiral Tarkin has with the Council, crimes committee by Jedi seem to normally be handled internally by the Order. Initially, Yoda suggests that this is how they will proceed. Tarkin, however, states that the Republic Senate has additionally requested that Ahsoka be expelled from the Order so that she can put before a military tribunal. This by itself is actually logical for two reasons: 1) Ahsoka's been granted a commission as an officer (Commander) in the Republic military, and 2) the crime for which she's been accused (treason) directly impacts the republic military during time of war. It makes sense for her to be tried by the military.

    That the Senate has to request the Order expel Ahsoka suggests that Jedi normally have some sort of immunity from prosecution. In light of their unusual place within the Republic and the requirements of their duties, this makes sense. If a Jedi has to steal a speeder bike to chase down a Sith Lord, you don't want to have to, by law, prosecute the Jedi for grand theft speeder later on. The Order would probably need a cadre of lawyers on retainer across the galaxy.

    The Council considered the request from the Senate, as they seem to be duty-bound to do. They had to make a decision whether to expel her and stalling might seem like obstruction. They chose to expel her.

    In terms of procedures:
    1) Jedi initially proceed towards internal investigation/prosecution. Senate disagrees.
    1) Senate requests military indict one of their officers (also Jedi, with special immunity).
    2) Military requests immunity be severed, Senate concurs.
    3) Jedi respond by severing immunity.
    4) Indictment proceeds, Ahsoka stands trial.
     
  4. jabberwalkie

    jabberwalkie Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 2, 2014
    I have a real tough time buying that you see no wrong. The Council's not accepting full responsibility for this and passing it off as a trial falls under the topic of moral responsibility. They may have been acting ethically and morally when they expelled her (though I still find a failing in their rush to judgement to expel her that she was responsible), but I cannot accept that they were truly accepting responsibility for their actions when it was determined that she was in fact innocent based on what was said in the episode. Would you disagree that it is a moral and ethical responsibility to take responsibility for actions or decisions?

    I would say that she was wrong to escape. She deserves some blame for not trusting in Anakin initially and becoming a fugitive until she was recaptured.
     
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  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Suit yourself. I could not have stated it any more clearly than I did.
     
  6. Octavian Dibar

    Octavian Dibar Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 6, 2015
    I actually think that it was her trust in Anakin that first lead her to break out. When she first sees the keycard, she assumes that Anakin somehow managed to put it there. Given all they've been through during the war, I can easily see her jumping to the conclusion that Anakin has a plan to get her out of this mess. I don't just think it's a well-thought out conclusion.

    By the time she reaches the control center with all the knocked out guards, she realizes she's made a mistake. By the time she reaches the dead clones, she's pretty much got to be committed to her course of action. There's no real going back, because that means facing murder charges of the clones as well as Letta, and the evidence against her is starting to mount.
     
  7. PapiNacho

    PapiNacho Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 14, 2015


    I don't think it's that simple; a suspended Jedi is still a Jedi. She needed to be expelled to be tried. Could they have told her that her expulsion was conditional? Sure, I've never said they were blameless, but I've always taken that as a given. She was expelled for a reason, if that reason doesn't exist then of course she should be welcomed back. People might see it as hypocrisy, but I see it as common sense. I need to re-watch the citadel arc, but the storyline, implies that the Jedi don't have any working prisons as she is taken in by the Republic prior to expulsion.


    Look this isn't about innocent about proven guilty, this is about not having a procedure. Let me explain this before into I launch into why I disagree with you about the evidence being convincing. In my country we have a law, that essentially allows, indigenous groups that are separated from society, to follow their own judicial system. This works for two reasons: to promote the existence of their culture and traditions and because they are somewhat estranged from society (geographically). However, there are exceptions to that law, and it makes sense because those societies are not equipped to judge and punish cases of the magnitude of manslaughter or terrorism. I see the Jedi Order as being in that situation, they have their own law, because of tradition, but they don't have procedure to deal with such a case. At the core of the issue, is this question, if there was no law for proper assessment and punishment of an alleged crime would the judgement be fair? Or would it be somewhat ambiguous and unreliable?

    Now I'm going to be busy for a while, but I will post why I think the evidence is condemning in some time.
     
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  8. Trebor Sabreon

    Trebor Sabreon Former Manager star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 15, 2010
    I agree. Films absolutely should be self-contained.

    But these are all things I interpreted from what was on-screen, and on-screen, alone. It's only that, in this instance, I was happy to see that the novelization harmonized perfectly well with what I took from Ewan and Sir Alec's performances. :) I could have (and, in hindsight, perhaps, should have) made the same argument without citing the novel.

    And though I may not often turn to novelizations as sources, I do feel some occasional passages are valuable in the sense that a certain writer's flair with the language may help me to better illustrate my message.


    But that conflict? That "Do I want to, or don't I?" "Can I even, or can I not?" That "Ah, hell, I cannot decide, so I'll do what Jedi do and leave it to the Force."? To me, that's always been right there in McGregor's work. It's in his voice and it's written all over his face.

    And I already mentioned all of that terrific stuff I take from just that one look Guinness gave Vader aboard the Death Star! :)
     
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  9. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014

    I vote we rename the thread to this.
     
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  10. jabberwalkie

    jabberwalkie Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 2, 2014
    [face_sigh] I think most of us would say that the Jedi were a force for good. This whole "the Jedi were terrible" schtick is hyperbole IMO.
     
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  11. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    A force for good I see what you did there even if you did not mean to.
     
  12. jabberwalkie

    jabberwalkie Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 2, 2014
    Since this story takes place in "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...." I was speaking of the Order that was in the PT, but if you want me to clarify it further, Jedi as a whole are a force for good.
     
  13. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    No that's not what I was talking about I was talking about you using the word force but let's move on.
     
  14. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    People might want to keep the focus on Ahsoka Tano.

    It hasn't been about her since page four.
     
  15. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    I think this thread will soon be visited by the mods to be Shunned into the lock zone but who knows the conversation is much more intresting now.
     
  16. TheSilentInfluence

    TheSilentInfluence Retired Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 15, 2014
    I kind of wish we had seen Ahsoka train with another Master for a bit, just to see how different it would be and have her establish friendships etc outside of her Master and regular friends. I mean, if Anakin had stayed injured for a few episodes after they crash landed in Jedi Crash; they could have had Ahsoka train with Aayla Secura for a a bit,just to see how different the training and lessons could have been or something. Or they could have expanded on her friendship with Barriss or something.
     
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  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    There are anti-Jedi threads that pop up regularly in the PT forum. This thread became an extension of one of those. We really should go back to discussing Ahsoka. She appeared in more episodes than The Wrong Jedi.

    They definitely should have expanded on her friendship with Barriss. And the Aayla Secura premise would have been interesting. Or Kit Fisto.

    One of Karen Miller's tie-in novels had Ahsoka on a ship with Mace, on the way to rescue Anakin and Obi-Wan. Anakin's reaction when he found out that Ahsoka and Mace were on the ship together was basically 'Oh hell.' [face_laugh] That should have been an episode. With early-season Ahsoka of course.
     
  18. Dorryn

    Dorryn Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 24, 2015
    Everything in this dialog indicate that if there is a procedure to be followed, either no one knows about it or no one gives a crap.

    Well, I could quote this other dialog :

    Obi-wan : "Surely we can't do what Tarkin suggest. We have to stand behind Ahsoka"
    Ki-Adi : "And yet there is evidence that suggest she is indeed the mastermind behind those attacks"

    This "and yet" implies that they would stand behind Ahsoka if she wasn't guilty in their eyes.

    This is the main thing I can't seem to make clear : the fault I blame the Jedi for is not expelling her, it's believing her to be guilty.
     
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  19. Dorryn

    Dorryn Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 24, 2015
    And once again you failed to answer my question. Worse than that : you attempt to give it a meaning it never had in the first place.

    Seriously :
    What I said : "Is it bad to have some morality?"
    What you understand : "anyone who does not just HATE the Jedi is "immoral.""

    Please, tell me you see how ridiculous your "translation" looks.

     
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  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Yeah, I'm double quoting you and your alerts probably blew up. :p But I thought of something else regarding Brain Invaders: Ahsoka is recovering from hypothermia, and Kit Fisto had been taking care of her. But obviously hypothermia was not her only ordeal on that ship; she had had to deal with her friend getting attacked by the brain worm and begging for death.

    And when she decided she wanted to talk about that, she dismissed Kit Fisto and only wanted to talk to Anakin.

    I really enjoyed that episode, mostly because of the bond shown between Ahsoka and Anakin, but I also enjoyed Kit Fisto as well. Plus, 'if it's one thing we clones know how to do, it's kill a Jedi.'

    It would have been nice to see an Ahsoka/Barriss/Anakin/Luminara scene later in which they discussed the brain worms, maybe some concern that they weren't all destroyed and could be used as a bioweapon. Something in season 3, maybe an attack on another nearby planet, would have been a nice callback and continuation and would have established that they had maintained the friendship, instead of leaving us to assume it just 'cause everyone including Senator Chuchi wants to be friends with Ahsoka or something.
     
  21. jabberwalkie

    jabberwalkie Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 2, 2014
    [​IMG]
    That's funny when the very first response posted in the thread was yours, and started directly with "That's definitely what Dave Filoni wanted you to think."

    Also in which you linked your thoughts on the article, and how she was used to throw the old Order under the bus along with some of your "Jedi were terrible" schtick.

    So in short, the very first response posted wasn't even talking about Ahsoka's abilities or comparing her and Anakin as Jedi as was the topic posed by the OP.
     
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  22. TheSilentInfluence

    TheSilentInfluence Retired Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 15, 2014
    anakinfansince1983

    Omg an Ahsoka and Mace episode would be hilarious. I can see the look on Anakin's face now. [face_laugh]

    Oh, it's fine. :) No worries.

    That line was amazing. It was a great way to foreshadow order 66 too. You know, in regards to that episode; I really wanted a scene where Barriss and Ahsoka talk about what happened, and on Ahsoka's refusal to kill her despite being asked to by Barriss herself when she was corrupted by the brain worms. I guess that could play into the Ahsoka/Barriss/Anakin/Luminara scene you suggested above. And the brain worms being used as a bioweapon would be interesting.

    I didn't like how Senator Chuchi and Ahsoka were friends from the start either. I would have liked to see some more development in regards to that, because they really seemed like great friends who trusted each other a lot.
     
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    If the writers wanted Ahsoka and Chuchi to be friends, that's fine, but it needed to be established. It could be done similar to the way the Obi-Wan/Satine romance was established, with a couple of sentences about when they worked together last.

    The bioweapon concept was used in the Miller novels and I was a lot more afraid of the Separatists there than I was in the show. Expanding on the brain worms would have expanded Ahsoka and Barriss' friendship plus made the Separatists more threatening.
     
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  24. TheSilentInfluence

    TheSilentInfluence Retired Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Yeah, that would have been good. :) I can also see Ahsoka annoying Riyo a little bit as well.

    That would be good too. Maybe they could have brought in other bioweapon's as well. And if Ahsoka and Barriss had to go and deal with another bioweapon (brain worms) it would be a good opportunity to help establish more of Barriss's character. Perhaps she even get's nightmares about it.
     
  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I'm one of few who actually liked those tie-in novels. Miller got a bit carried away sometimes, like with that scene in which Ahsoka was near tears over watching the Anakin/Obi-Wan bro-bonding in action.

    I really liked her take on Ahsoka though, and not because she thought the galaxy of Anakin and was really eager to please him.

    There was a great scene in which Ahsoka got injured (broken ribs) and Anakin had her researching in the hospital archives while she was recovering. Anakin then had to defend her to Bail Organa by saying she could be trusted with both the secret mission and the investigation. It was a good example of another character praising Ahsoka in a way that acknowledged her strengths without putting it out there in such a way to insinuate, hey, she is better than EVERYBODY. More that, hey, she's still a kid but is turning out to be a pretty good Jedi.

    The bioweapon in those books, whose creation Ahsoka is investigated, is an Ebola-esque weapon and totally creepy.
     
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