Full Series Ahsoka Tano: Jedi Knight

"so that she may be put to a Republic Military tribunal."

The implication is that an "unexpelled Jedi" can't be put to a Republic Military tribunal -


though Tarkin may be trying to pull a fast one on the Jedi and discourage them from thinking "Why not put her to a tribunal without any expelling".

 

Not to step on anakinfansince1983 's toes, but I have a few observations regarding procedures. Also, since we're only discussing procedures at this point, I won't argue one way or the other regarding the probative value of the evidence. That can be a whole separate dicussion (which seems ongoing anyway).

First, it's important to note that the Republic Senate has requested that Commander Tano be indicted. Based on the conversation Admiral Tarkin has with the Council, crimes committee by Jedi seem to normally be handled internally by the Order. Initially, Yoda suggests that this is how they will proceed. Tarkin, however, states that the Republic Senate has additionally requested that Ahsoka be expelled from the Order so that she can put before a military tribunal. This by itself is actually logical for two reasons: 1) Ahsoka's been granted a commission as an officer (Commander) in the Republic military, and 2) the crime for which she's been accused (treason) directly impacts the republic military during time of war. It makes sense for her to be tried by the military.

That the Senate has to request the Order expel Ahsoka suggests that Jedi normally have some sort of immunity from prosecution. In light of their unusual place within the Republic and the requirements of their duties, this makes sense. If a Jedi has to steal a speeder bike to chase down a Sith Lord, you don't want to have to, by law, prosecute the Jedi for grand theft speeder later on. The Order would probably need a cadre of lawyers on retainer across the galaxy.

The Council considered the request from the Senate, as they seem to be duty-bound to do. They had to make a decision whether to expel her and stalling might seem like obstruction. They chose to expel her.

In terms of procedures:
1) Jedi initially proceed towards internal investigation/prosecution. Senate disagrees.
1) Senate requests military indict one of their officers (also Jedi, with special immunity).
2) Military requests immunity be severed, Senate concurs.
3) Jedi respond by severing immunity.
4) Indictment proceeds, Ahsoka stands trial.

 

I have a real tough time buying that you see no wrong. The Council's not accepting full responsibility for this and passing it off as a trial falls under the topic of moral responsibility. They may have been acting ethically and morally when they expelled her (though I still find a failing in their rush to judgement to expel her that she was responsible), but I cannot accept that they were truly accepting responsibility for their actions when it was determined that she was in fact innocent based on what was said in the episode. Would you disagree that it is a moral and ethical responsibility to take responsibility for actions or decisions?

I would say that she was wrong to escape. She deserves some blame for not trusting in Anakin initially and becoming a fugitive until she was recaptured.

 

I actually think that it was her trust in Anakin that first lead her to break out. When she first sees the keycard, she assumes that Anakin somehow managed to put it there. Given all they've been through during the war, I can easily see her jumping to the conclusion that Anakin has a plan to get her out of this mess. I don't just think it's a well-thought out conclusion.

By the time she reaches the control center with all the knocked out guards, she realizes she's made a mistake. By the time she reaches the dead clones, she's pretty much got to be committed to her course of action. There's no real going back, because that means facing murder charges of the clones as well as Letta, and the evidence against her is starting to mount.

 

I don't think it's that simple; a suspended Jedi is still a Jedi. She needed to be expelled to be tried. Could they have told her that her expulsion was conditional? Sure, I've never said they were blameless, but I've always taken that as a given. She was expelled for a reason, if that reason doesn't exist then of course she should be welcomed back. People might see it as hypocrisy, but I see it as common sense. I need to re-watch the citadel arc, but the storyline, implies that the Jedi don't have any working prisons as she is taken in by the Republic prior to expulsion.

Look this isn't about innocent about proven guilty, this is about not having a procedure. Let me explain this before into I launch into why I disagree with you about the evidence being convincing. In my country we have a law, that essentially allows, indigenous groups that are separated from society, to follow their own judicial system. This works for two reasons: to promote the existence of their culture and traditions and because they are somewhat estranged from society (geographically). However, there are exceptions to that law, and it makes sense because those societies are not equipped to judge and punish cases of the magnitude of manslaughter or terrorism. I see the Jedi Order as being in that situation, they have their own law, because of tradition, but they don't have procedure to deal with such a case. At the core of the issue, is this question, if there was no law for proper assessment and punishment of an alleged crime would the judgement be fair? Or would it be somewhat ambiguous and unreliable?

Now I'm going to be busy for a while, but I will post why I think the evidence is condemning in some time.

 

I agree. Films absolutely should be self-contained.

But these are all things I interpreted from what was on-screen, and on-screen, alone. It's only that, in this instance, I was happy to see that the novelization harmonized perfectly well with what I took from Ewan and Sir Alec's performances. I could have (and, in hindsight, perhaps, should have) made the same argument without citing the novel.

And though I may not often turn to novelizations as sources, I do feel some occasional passages are valuable in the sense that a certain writer's flair with the language may help me to better illustrate my message.


But that conflict? That "Do I want to, or don't I?" "Can I even, or can I not?" That "Ah, hell, I cannot decide, so I'll do what Jedi do and leave it to the Force."? To me, that's always been right there in McGregor's work. It's in his voice and it's written all over his face.

And I already mentioned all of that terrific stuff I take from just that one look Guinness gave Vader aboard the Death Star!

 

I vote we rename the thread to this.

 

I think most of us would say that the Jedi were a force for good. This whole "the Jedi were terrible" schtick is hyperbole IMO.

 

A force for good I see what you did there even if you did not mean to.

 

Since this story takes place in "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...." I was speaking of the Order that was in the PT, but if you want me to clarify it further, Jedi as a whole are a force for good.

 

No that's not what I was talking about I was talking about you using the word force but let's move on.

 

People might want to keep the focus on Ahsoka Tano.

It hasn't been about her since page four.

 

I think this thread will soon be visited by the mods to be Shunned into the lock zone but who knows the conversation is much more intresting now.

 

I kind of wish we had seen Ahsoka train with another Master for a bit, just to see how different it would be and have her establish friendships etc outside of her Master and regular friends. I mean, if Anakin had stayed injured for a few episodes after they crash landed in Jedi Crash; they could have had Ahsoka train with Aayla Secura for a a bit,just to see how different the training and lessons could have been or something. Or they could have expanded on her friendship with Barriss or something.

 

Everything in this dialog indicate that if there is a procedure to be followed, either no one knows about it or no one gives a crap.

Well, I could quote this other dialog :

Obi-wan : "Surely we can't do what Tarkin suggest. We have to stand behind Ahsoka"
Ki-Adi : "And yet there is evidence that suggest she is indeed the mastermind behind those attacks"

This "and yet" implies that they would stand behind Ahsoka if she wasn't guilty in their eyes.

This is the main thing I can't seem to make clear : the fault I blame the Jedi for is not expelling her, it's believing her to be guilty.

 

And once again you failed to answer my question. Worse than that : you attempt to give it a meaning it never had in the first place.

Seriously :
What I said : "Is it bad to have some morality?"
What you understand : "anyone who does not just HATE the Jedi is "immoral.""

Please, tell me you see how ridiculous your "translation" looks.

 

That's funny when the very first response posted in the thread was yours, and started directly with "That's definitely what Dave Filoni wanted you to think."

Also in which you linked your thoughts on the article, and how she was used to throw the old Order under the bus along with some of your "Jedi were terrible" schtick.

So in short, the very first response posted wasn't even talking about Ahsoka's abilities or comparing her and Anakin as Jedi as was the topic posed by the OP.

 

anakinfansince1983

Omg an Ahsoka and Mace episode would be hilarious. I can see the look on Anakin's face now.

Oh, it's fine. No worries.

That line was amazing. It was a great way to foreshadow order 66 too. You know, in regards to that episode; I really wanted a scene where Barriss and Ahsoka talk about what happened, and on Ahsoka's refusal to kill her despite being asked to by Barriss herself when she was corrupted by the brain worms. I guess that could play into the Ahsoka/Barriss/Anakin/Luminara scene you suggested above. And the brain worms being used as a bioweapon would be interesting.

I didn't like how Senator Chuchi and Ahsoka were friends from the start either. I would have liked to see some more development in regards to that, because they really seemed like great friends who trusted each other a lot.

 

Yeah, that would have been good. I can also see Ahsoka annoying Riyo a little bit as well.

That would be good too. Maybe they could have brought in other bioweapon's as well. And if Ahsoka and Barriss had to go and deal with another bioweapon (brain worms) it would be a good opportunity to help establish more of Barriss's character. Perhaps she even get's nightmares about it.