Darth Vader's New Look (Rebels)

I think it is perfectly valid to criticise the idea that Filoni (or Lucas, or Abrams, or any creative type) should be fired/replaced or is incompetent because of personal taste. Liking it or not is not the argument I am making - I enjoy it, others do not. They're both perfectly valid opinions to have. However, the argument that because one fan doesn't like it, clearly it must be chosen for the sake of controversy is ridiculous. Suggesting that people who DO like it wouldn't if there was any other choice, is ridiculous. Suggesting that the quality of the whole show would be better with a more realistic art style is ridiculous - there are choices made about plot and characterisation I dislike but a more film-like-looking Vader acting out of character (hypothetically, I have not seen Rebels Vader in action yet) would still be out of character. Plots that make no sense would not make more sense if Sabine wore 'classic' armour.

I don't care if you like it. I don't care if you decide it's not for you and don't watch it any more. I do care once you (a generalised 'you' not a specific person) suggest Filoni is incompetent and stirring up controversy because of a perfectly valid design choice, because you are equating your own personality with objective fact and maligning a hard-working and dedicated fan and creator in the process.

 

StrikerKOJ --- agree 100%, and the bolded parts above hit the nail on the head.

The viewing figures and critical reception might not be that much different. Since its the only game in town, its the only thing that Star Wars fans have had to turn to on TV for the past 8 years. Filoni is likely NOT deliberately doing this to malign any fans. Filoni is, however, making decisions that negatively impact a section of the fanbase when it would be very simple to make a decision that would avoid this.

I've said it before --- just about everyone would love to see Vader as we all know him without a 1-dimensional scowl helmet. Everyone would love to see bulky Wookies as opposed to emaciated ones (and no, the slave aspect to their history has nothing to do with their look --- it is clearly just the artistic style). Clearly, NOT everyone was bound to love 1-dimensional scowl helmet Vader and emaciated Wookies, among other controversial things that Filoni and his team have done.

As the only game in town, Filoni and co. should have tread carefully with their artistic choices to please the most fans as possible, at least in critical areas like artistic choice. With simple answers staring them in the face, they decided to go the "bolder" route, and some undisclosed, untallied, but very real portion of the fanbase is paying the price with significantly diminished enjoyment of their beloved Star Wars.

 

I think you're focusing too much on Filoni, he still has to go through Pablo, Chee, Beck ect and up the ladder to Kennedy. If they like it and agree, then it gets made, if they don't the chances are very slim it will get made.

 

Darth Saxman

Oh for Pete's sake. "negatively impacted?" Over dramatic much? How are you or "the fanbase" being "negatively impacted" by artistic choices? Is the angle of Vader's helmet throwing you into a depressed state? Is it ruining your 401K?

Seriously man, if you're being negatively impacted by the art style of a cartoon, you need to talk to someone about that.

The irony of this whole discussion is that if Filoni took the above advice, played it safe and avoided the supposedly "bolder" artistic choices, he'd probably now be criticized by a whole new group of people who wanted to see a new or different look for the animated series. And there would be another thread going on about how the animation is "nothing new" and "boring" or whatever the complaint du jour was.

There's literally no way for him to avoid taking heat by one fan constituency or another. He's never going to please everyone, nor should he.

 

Darth Saxman I am still waiting for proof that these artistic decisions are having a negative impact on the show as a product and as a story, and on the characterisation. Because otherwise Filoni IS making a decision to please the most fans possible. He is going with the style he thinks is best for the show - which is a cartoon, thus by it's very nature a degree of caricature and exaggeration is inherent to the look and designs. That is what a cartoon IS. You claim:

But go on to admit the portion of fans who are truly put off by this choice is untallied and undisclosed. Maybe it's significant, perhaps it's not, but outside of this one thread I've barely seen any complaints and can only conclude that even those who aren't fond of this design aren't finding any ''significantly diminished enjoyment of their beloved Star Wars.''

You are NOT any better a judge of what makes 'good' Star Wars than I am, but the difference is that I am not claiming to be, I don't think my enjoyment is what makes this decision A-Okay. I am merely repeating that Vader's look is a perfectly valid and justified choice artistically (and one that I do happen to enjoy, yes) BUT any style would have it's critics and complaints - and Filoni knows that. No-one can please all the people, all the time, and he's well aware of that fact.

 

I think it look ok. It was strange at first but it grew on me. Personally i think its a bit silly to think about it too much, negatively or positively.

 

This is soooooooo true. Over in the Ep VII forum, these same sorts of people are griping up a storm about how "silly", and "unrealistic" the T-70 model X-wings are because they're "too much like the OT", etc etc etc.

It's sad but true: "haters gotta hate". Mind you, I'm not a "JJ fan" by any stretch of the imagination, but I'll give him what credit he's due when it's due.

 

It's more like "fans have to find SOMETHING to complain about." They just cannot help themselves. And often they focus on the most seemingly trivial things. To be clear, this is hardly unique to SW fans, it's more of a common trend that I've noticed across many different fanbases.

 

Of course, who am I to question King Filoni? Everything he puts out is pure gold and wonderful for the Star Wars universe. Especially if it very radically in contrast to previously-established Star Wars art styles, themes, character back stories, usage of musical themes/leitmotifs, etc. He is pushing Star wars to fresh, exciting new Horizons and we should all thank our lucky stars that we have the talent of him and his team as the one and only group creating Star Wars animated canon for the past decade.

Clearly, I am just complaining for the sake of complaining and should just such up and deal with whatever Filoni and his team decide to put out, no matter how silly, one dimensional, babyish, clichéd, cringe-inducing, universe-crossing, and/or unoriginal it may be. In fact, the more that it fits one or more of those labels, the more praise Filoni should get for making the bold, controversial decisions that other directors might not be confident enough to take. It is all for the good of keeping Star Wars "modern" and friendly to the new young generation of fans, who clearly are so much different than the Young generations of the OT.

Having drunk the blood of Filoni, I have fallen into the black sleep of the Filoni-ma, and am now a True Believer.

Praise be to ever-scowling Vaders, Aladdin lookalikes, hot pink Mandalorians , and emaciated wookies!

 

Well when you put it like that clearly I was wrong to consider that a 20 minute cartoon could possibly be in any way more exaggerated and stylised than a full length live action movie... I mean, how could it possibly be that the tone that he was trying to achieve was anything other than

? You've stated your opinion so forcefully it must be true. I mean sure, I enjoy the cartoon, and so do plenty of others. But we were quite obviously wrong to have different opinions.

From now on, anything that isn't EXACTLY the same as the movies is an abomination to be shunned. Down with originality! To hell with innovation! The only way to progress forward is retreading something forty years old.

 

Regards Vader, leaving aside the look, what will he actually do in the show besides be a glorified version of the Inquisitor, who didn't do much anyway ?

 

Originality in rebels? Huh? This series is too dependent on recycled characters and plots to be called innovative.

 

The idea that Aladdin with a cut and paste Luke Skywalker story can in anyway be called original is absurd.
I doubt even Filoni would call it original. He's not stupid, he knows that its a limited shelf life

 

I'm sad that Filoni wasn't allowed to make the pilot series he initially wanted to make.

 

Wasn't that just Ahoska and Plo Kloon flying around together. That doesn't sound that great either.
TBH the best thing that happened to Ahsoka (and what makes her interesting) was Lucas making her Anakin's apprentice.

 

Let's not get hung up on the idea that Luke's story was original the first time around... a simple farm boy? Who turns out to have super special powers? Gosh... that's new and fresh and never ever been done before. Certainly different to every other cut and paste 'hero's journey' pulp adventure... And that arc with Han Solo? A jerk who turns out to be an alright guy deep down inside? He argues with the beautiful princess... but it's because they really were in love? Now THAT'S innovative...

 

I thought he was considering a Jedi Younglings series?

 

You're confusing original compared to stories and themes that have been used throughout the history of humankind with original compared to the Star Wars universe as we know it. There is a difference between Lucas borrowing themes from Greek and Roman mythology and Filoni's ripping off of Luke's origins. The Aladdin ripoff would have been much more subtle if they hadn't gone with a look for Ezra that is almost exactly like the Disney Aladdin. It would have been more acceptable (and probably never even mentioned) if not for the clear artistic crossover

 

How exactly is pissing on the originals going to prove that rebels is original? It was you who put forth the claim that the series was innovative. ANH is rarely praised for its "original plot", it has a lot of other qualities like the extremely good world building. You are operating on a kind of backwards logic here.

Was it? I thought it would be more like a squad of young fighter pilots having adventures. Do you happen to know when and where Filoni said this?

 

Well said Saxman and Pevra!

I indeed share many concerns and issues regarding animated Wars as Saxman. I highly doubt it's because we're opposed to fresh ideas or new ground, either. My main thing here as in Wars in general is *handling*. I particularly dislike that modern Wars is becoming a Pop Culture mouthpiece. I don't need 21st century political spew fests in Star Wars. Yes, I intensely dislike what reads as forced and disingenuous agendas.

Plus, how can anyone take a show with zero tension or consequences that stick only five seconds seriously? Many like Rebels, fine, I don't contest that. Have at it. However those that don't tread the 'mainstream and expected views' are just as valid to the conversation.

Star Wars is being dumbed down and that insults the audience and it's a disservice to the creative team and fans, alike. It's bad enough many buy into red and black equal evil and blue and green equal good. People, including children are NOT stupid. Besides projecting what someone arbitrarily considers ugly or sinister as 'evil' is lame. Appearance has zero to do with motive.

 

Except that nearly all of the bad guys in the films have been intentionally designed to look evil or sinister.

The Emperor, Vader, Maul, Grievous. The only one who broke that mold was Dooku.

Subtle villains isn't really what Star Wars does. When someone's the bad guy, you typically can tell very quickly based on just their appearance.

 

I am not making any claims whatsoever about the merits of the plot and originality of Rebels. Merely that drawing on pre-existing themes and archetypes is something that has been done before in Star Wars, including the original films. And if you insist on broadening this whole debate from Darth Vader's specific look in this one series (which is the only choice I am justifying in this thread as a VALID choice, not even necessarily a correct one), pointing out Ezra's similarity to Vader is pretty much a nonstarter. Obi-Wan Kenobi as shown in the first film is an old bearded man in a cloak with mysterious powers. Who else fits that description? Gandalf from Lord Of The Rings and pretty much every archetypal wizard since then, who was himself expressly based on Odin of Norse mythology. Or if you want to get even more specific, simply take a picture of Dr Doom (around for 10-15 years before Star Wars was created) and paint it black. That's basically Vader with visible eyes, as much as 'street urchin with dark hair' describes both Aladdin and Ezra.

I AM NOT SAYING THE PLOT IS FANTASTIC, NEW AND INNOVATIVE. It draws on standard themes and plotlines, just like a whole lot of other Star Wars material before it has done. I am not even saying that Vader's look is the 'right' one and any other would be wrong. I never did. I have myself criticised Filoni's plot choices in another thread regarding clones, I have bought up the ridiculously skinny Wookies more than once myself. The ONLY argument I am making is that Filoni and the other series' artists designing a scowling Vader or a pink-armoured Mandalorian are totally legitimate ARTISTIC choices. That is the look he wants to go for. And claiming that he is wrong to do so is a fallacious argument. Not liking it? Fine. Claiming it to be objectively and factually wrong? That's what I've got a problem with.

Filoni has been criticised for not doing things exactly the same way as the original films. He has also been criticised for doing things the same way the originals did. He seems to be in a position that any choice he makes is wrong, because it was he who made it.

 

Tarkin does not look evil none of the so called villains do. I find it pretty sad many act like evil is so obvious or that genes indicate motive. Both are laughable.

Disagreement is fine and even good J89 but what seems like blind defence of creative choices I have a problem with. Just because a creative decides to do something doesn't make it right.

 

Yup, this guy, definitely not evil...

 

He didn't say it was right, he said it was valid. Slightly different meaning there.