Saga Using the dark side for good

As a concept, what do you think about a Jedi who taps into the dark side for the sake of good? In canon, the closest we get to this is Mace Windu (Vapaad) and Anakin (duel with Dooku).

I was imagining something like a Jedi using Force Lightning to stop a Sith or assassin from killing others. In a dramatic scenario, perhaps a Jedi could have an implant installed as a countermeasure; if he starts to fall to the dark side, his allies could activate the implant which would neutralize or kill him.

 

I think it's possible. Isn't it the goal of an individual to learn how to control the different aspects of his or her nature?

 

First, I don't consider Lightning ability 'evil' I don't care what sources say and we already have Jedi breaking their own rules all the time with no consequence. Doesn't make evil good.

 

This is how the Sith came about. They were Jedi who believed that they should use all aspects of the Force and not what the Jedi were following, in order to make for a better and safer society. Despite what the old EU said with their Gray Jedi and the Potentium, the dark side is not meant for Jedi to use. It can and will corrupt the individual. As Yoda said, the dark side is quicker and easier. That is not what being a Jedi is all about.

 

I see what you are saying, but what if there could be exceptions? Let's say that a Sith was about to kill innocent hostages. Despite his attempts to stop the Sith, the Jedi was simply not strong enough. If the Jedi tapped into the dark side as a sacrifice -- suppose he has given his allies instructions to activate a small bioimplant or biochip in his skull that will kill him if he succumbs to the dark side -- wouldn't that be the better thing for the Jedi to do?

If the Jedi refuses to have anything to with the dark side at all, we end up with dead hostages in that scenario.

However, if the Jedi plans a very limited exception, we have saved hostages in that scenario.

 

If a Jedi has to use the dark side, then they have already failed as a Jedi. That Jedi has chosen to act selfishly in order to achieve his or her goals. That's what happened with Luke. He attacked Vader because he wasn't strong enough to hide Leia's existence from him and so he lashed out because he felt weak and believed that his anger and hate was the only solution. That's also why Anakin was finally able to beat Dooku after so many confrontations, because he decided to use his anger and hate to beat him, whereas before he held back.

 

In the specific scenario we have been discussing, not using the dark side to save innocent hostages sounds like the selfish, pious choice. In general, the dark side fuels selfish motivation, but I think that theoretically it can be harnessed toward the greater good if the proper precautions are taken.

 

Nope. It isn't selfish to not use it. A Jedi must accept any and all limitations that they have. That includes failure. A Jedi must believe that they will succeed, or face failure. And if they fail, they must accept that. Compromise is what destroyed the Jedi and the Republic. Compromising their beliefs to get the job done. A true Jedi knows better than that. Obi-wan couldn't beat Maul on his own, but he figured out how to without using the dark side. A wise Jedi knows how to win without compromise. That was Yoda's lesson to Dooku on Geonosis when he dealt with the lightning. He was stronger than Dooku was without the dark side.

When Ezra used his anger against the Inquisitor, he made a grave mistake that could have damned him. It is why Kanan took him to the Temple on Lothal. He needed to the boy to see what his anger was going to bring him and it was Yoda who put him on the right path. Likewise, Kanan saw that the dark side could not win over the Inquisitor, but letting go of his fears and embracing the Force gave him the power he needed.

 

Basically a Jedi would go to family members of the victims and say, "Sorry that I couldn't save your family, but my Order's traditions are simply more important than the lives of your family. I could have made a personal sacrfice by tapping into the dark side, but not compromising is better than the lives of innocents."

I agree that most situations will require abstaining from the dark side, but I still maintain there might be important exceptions where the right thing to do would be different from what the Jedi would do

 

There's very few Sith abilities that can be used for good purposes. Force choke isn't exactly something the "nice guy" uses lightly. Even Luke's application of it in RoTJ was questionable. Sith lightning likewise is intended to cause pain. Sith Alchemy is very much "dark arts" as it requires sinister rituals, often including blood sacrifices to perform. There are Grey Jedi who skirt the edge of the Dark Side, but I don't see them really applying something like Sith lightning or force choke in a confrontation.

 

YODA: "Stopped they must be, on all this depends. Only a fully trained Jedi with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor."

KANAN: "You were right. I was a coward. But now I know there's something stronger than fear, far stronger. The Force. Let me show you how strong it is."

If a Jedi Knight cannot defeat a Sith Lord without using the dark side, then he or she is not a Jedi.

 

I genuinely like the "keep faith in the light" part of your stance, darth-sinister.

However, I really don't know about the "let innocent people die sometimes" part.

 

The part your're not understanding is that the only way a Jedi could fail against a Sith is if he is dead or completely dismembered. If a Jedi and a Sith are fighting, then there is always hope that the Jedi can beat the Sith without the dark side. The only way that a Jedi couldn't do it is like what Vader did to Ezra in "The Siege Of Lothal".



Or what Palpatine did with the Jedi Posse.

 

You're forgetting the following:
--Darth Maul killing Qui-Gon
-- Dooku beating Obi-Wan twice
--Dooku beating Anakin

Sometimes, you're simply outclassed. No matter how good Obi-Wan had become, for instance, Dooku still defeated him.

I strongly think a Jedi can fail if he/she was unable, or did not do everything in his/her power, to protect innocents. After all they are the keepers of peace.

I respect your stance and think you have raised great points. Nevertheless, at this point, we can probably agree to disagree regarding whether the Jedi should allow rare exceptions if it could save others.

 

Getting yellow eyes, pale complexion and general skin problems aren't evil either, but part of the dark side package nevertheless. I feel it should be the same with lightning. You can use it in entirely harmless ways but it does require channeling the dark side, which in turn requires very malevolent thoughts.

 

Let me pose three more things.

1. A Jedi won't be able to tell the families of the innocents that they failed, because they'd be dead or evil.

2. Jedi have beaten Sith and dark side adepts. So taking what those three examples are is nothing compared to the times when they've beaten the Sith.

3. A Jedi is never alone. There are always two in these situations. Working together, they can stop the Sith Lord.

Note that Yoda doesn't do it. That should tell you how dangerous it is.

YODA: "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-wan's apprentice."

 

Since none of us have the Force, it's next to impossible to know 100% the consequences of tapping into the dark side.

With that said: once one compromises one's principles/morals, are they any better than the other side? And if in upholding their principles/morals others die - is that principled and moral?

Could a Jedi actually use the dark to save others? Perhaps, but what about the next time they're tempted - will they be susceptible, and again, and again, until they have been seduced by that ability? To me, that is a very real danger.

It's one of those moral dilemmas that have no real, 100% moral answer.

Also, whether or not one buys it, it could be that said Jedi believes that if the Force does not grant him/her the chance to save those others, it is meant to be, it's their time, it's the Will of the Force, whatever one might subscribe to.

 

Right there is the answer. Either a Jedi can or cannot save someone. To dwell on it is to do what Anakin did and he is our example of tapping into it.

 

I suspect that powers like Force Lightning are not that easy for a Jedi to use. As I understand it, FL is produced by channeling hatred, anger, and fear and giving them free reign to run wild and uncontrolled. I don't believe a Jedi could do that and still be a Jedi. Luke stepped up to that level once in the Emperor's throne room, realized what he was doing to himself, and chose to throw away his lightsaber rather than risk approaching the darkness again.

 

I don't understand. Why should someone channel negative feelings to produce lightning?

 

Because from everything we've seen in canon, the dark side is required to utilize it.

 

And if you look at "Force Lightning" closely, it doesn't much resemble actual thunderstorm lightning. It's not something natural, IMO, it's a dark (metaphorically), twisted perversion of the life power of the Force. Unnatural and dangerous, to its wielder as well as its target.

 

These are two excellent videos with very valid opinions and arguments on the matter of the dark side.

I truly believe the dark side can be used for good. The question is when do you stop? Virtually every darksider we have ever seen in Star Wars media has murdered multiple people in cold blood. The dark side can bring about positive changes, but it is such a slippery slope that you can lose yourself to.

 

The movies didn't reveal that evil is required to use force lightning. It's just that we've only seen evil characters - namely Palpatine and Dooku - use it. That doesn't mean non-evil people cannot use it.

 

I would have liked to see the prequels deal with this concept a little bit more directly when portraying the fall of Anakin.