The Jedi existed for a thousand generations. In the EU, at least, we've seen they've had the knowledge before.
The EU was taken by surprise when it learned that the PT Jedi didn't know anything about Force Ghosting. The LSG has that understanding going forward, and is likely to be reflected in the ongoing narrative, going forward and backward in time. It's likely there will be a 'Legends Answer' for this question, and a separate "LSG Answer" - and that's cool. I'm most interested in the LSG answer, but the other is certainly fair game for discussion.
They didn't believe there was a way to retain their idendity in the afterlife because they didn't know it was possible. That didn't change the way of what it meant to be a Jedi. Their teachings, purpose and beliefs remains the same. They are an Order of selfless people who dedicate their lives to protect and serve others. Trained from an early age to not give into emotions that could hurt others and themselves. That didn't change with what Qui-Gon, Yoda and Obi-Wan learned.
Regardless, the Jedi are interested in balance. That they failed to achieve it doesn't mean that Yoda's -- or Qui-Gon's -- achievement of it is somehow different than being a Jedi. It's noteworthy that in the Lightsabers arc the Ilum temple has Daughter's symbol on the floor of the atrium. If you want to argue that switching to Father's symbol, figuratively speaking, is somehow different than being a Jedi, that being a Jedi is tied to Daughter, then I suppose I don't disagree. But I think the films are pretty clear that the Jedi are concerned with balance and the entirety of the Force, and their reticence is another dogmatic element that can and should be discarded, as the training age aspect was discarded.
Yeah, in the EU ghosting was routine and even PT (before there was a PT) Jedi could do it. See: Qu Rahn. Missa ab iPhona mea est.
Per Abel, Yoda trained him on Dagobah. Edit: of course, I always thought it silly the EU assumed it was common. When Obi-Wan did it, Vader didn't know wtf.
Let's just say that if Yoda persisted, and the Jedi Order was't wiped out by Order 66, he'd likely have had to have created his own sect, or he'd be taken out of leadership for teaching heresy, or assumed to be crazy. That is literally about what was going to happen in the Yoda arc, before Yoda decided a "keep it to yourself" idea was better for the time being. You might say if anything, it's a new Denomination of Jediism. Keep in mind, new religions generally start because there is announcement of a New Revelation that traditionalists aren't willing to accept for one reason or another. The New Group considers themself a continuation of the old establishment, but the old establishment tends to consider the new branch a heretical Cult. The Sith appear to have gone from being a Jedi Cult to a full blown new Religion. Yoda's New Class is just basically a shift in Reformed Jediism.
His peers in the hierarchy showed they were not open to it. Usually in splits, it's the commoners who split off, and become in opposition to the hierarchy of the traditional establishment. With Yoda, this would be a defection from the highest level, and even then, he decided not to continue to try and help the council understand. He continued to learn behind-the-scenes, and shut up about it until they were dead, and then inducted the one individual he could trust/hope to perpetuate it.
The hilarious thing is that this reformed idea of what it means to be a Jedi is a return to the original sense of Jedi. In OOU terms it's a conservative notion, but in IU terms it's downright revolutionary. Missa ab iPhona mea est.
Exactly! I think this is why many don't like or get the idea of the radical nature of the shift. From an OT-First perspective, the Ben/Yoda Jedi are the Status Quo that defined Jedi for them, so this was read into what was seen in the PT. But from a chronological/sociological/philosophical approach, Yoda's experience was a religious crisis that, tragically, could only be resolved by the literal death of the Old Order. It was downright confusing to initial viewers in 1999 that Qui-Gon didn't disappear in TPM. The viewers expected it. The characters would not have.
I guess I don't understand why people think this is a "religious" shift at all because it changes absolutely nothing about what the Jedi think of the Force. It's purely about personal growth.
In my personal experience, Religion is as much (and sometimes more) about personal growth and one's relationship to the community as it is professing knowledge of The Essential Nature Of Things. And realizing the Living and Cosmic Force included conscious unique identities of beings whose body had died was a radical conceptualization of the nature of the Force. A class of Individuals serving the unified whole among the unified whole is different than becoming indistinct in the unified whole.
That doesn't change your religion. You grow within your religion. That doesn't mean your religion has shifted. Yoda already knew everything about the Cosmic Force, which was the root of his hubris. His view of the Force didn't change at all.
In my life, I have changed religions (into one that professes to be part of the overarching original one, but distinct enough the main professors do not consider me to be a part of them). I have also had massive paradigm shifts that work within the bounds of my own current professed religion. But as soon as I profess a New Revelation and seek to teach it, and get followers, I have become a new sect - likely a subset of the original religion, yes, but distinct from the community of communal believers. Whether this religiouns schism is a good thing or a bad thing depends on whose perspective you're looking at it from.
there is no metaphysical difference in Yoda's outlook in the Force before and after the episodes He grew as a character in recognizing and integrating the shadow of his soul Every time someone uses personal anecdotes I have an aneurysm
In all honesty, there's nothing to prevent that from being the case. According to Qui-Gon in dialogue cut from ROTS, the secret was discovered by a Shaman of the Whills: there's nothing to say the Shaman wasn't a female of a humanoid species with greenish skin (what was visible under those robes, at any rate), who died in the very distant past while retaining her consciousness, and eventually separated into her constituent emotional aspects which became distinct personalities - all of which are things Filoni has said about the Priestesses in various interviews and comments (except for the greenish skin bit; that's simple observation). The only open question is whether the Priestesses were at one time a Shaman of the Whills or not - in other words, if we're taking that cut scene into account or not. Because everything else tracks with the idea that they were, if you read it all just the right way.
I think we're led to believe Jocast Nu's attitude isn't unique. Jocasta Nu [shaking her head]: I hate to say it, but it looks like the system you’re searching for doesn’t exist. Obi-Wan: Impossible. Perhaps the archives are incomplete. Jocasta Nu: If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist. Obi-Wan "[Anakin's] abilities have made him, well, arrogant." Yoda- "Yes. Yes. A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Hmmm. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones." (Yoda is totally subtweeting Mace right there.)
"Generality." "My personal experience adds nuance to this generality, and is why I do not agree with this generality." *ANEURYSM!* If this existed as a general condition, it would certainly expedite the process of sifting through political candidates.
Neither of those quotes seem to have much to do with the metaphysical beliefs of the Jedi. Even still, that they don't think it's possible doesn't mean they wouldn't be open to it once proven wrong.
What do you mean? It was up to the Chosen One to bring balance. If you mean balance within themselves, where did they fail? The training age wasn't discarded. Luke was an exception given the situation they were in (and in TESB, Yoda reitirates that he's too old). And what other dogmatic element should be discarded? Between Anakin dying and the moment he sees him again as a 'ghost'. That's speculation. He kept it to himself on Qui-Gon's request. I don't even make such association.
Ah, but how would they be proven wrong? Obi-Wan (assisted by younglings) actually found Kamino. Jocasta Nu would have been forced to be confronted with evidence that made her rethink her relationship with the Jedi Knowledge Bank. Imagine if Yoda had given the same response of Jocasta when Obi-Wan asked him for help! Yoda couldn't force Qui-Gon or the Priestesses to appear to the Council. He knew because of his experience. We don't know how long it took Obi-Wan to have contact with Qui-Gon. The council was getting ready to force Yoda into retirement.
