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CT Leia Organa's Personal Flaws

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by LZM65, Sep 13, 2015.

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  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Since you've brought up Magic Mike twice, I'll address that.

    I have no interest in that movie and do not see the point. I like a hot guy with his shirt off as much as the next heterosexual woman but I still don't see the point.

    And if one of the characters from Magic Mike showed up in a sequel with his clothes on, and some woman said "This sucks, he's not supposed to do that, get his clothes off!", I would have a problem with it.
     
  2. Prisic Duskleap

    Prisic Duskleap Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 24, 2014
    The last one wasn't so bad it at least attempted to have an actual story instead of them just stripping. But I get why many female fans gravitate towards these films.
     
  3. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    Whenever I see the metal bikini I can't help but think of this...

    [​IMG]
     
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Yeah. Holy hell, that thing had to be uncomfortable.
     
  5. RogueZero

    RogueZero Jedi Master star 2

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    Mar 17, 2009
    bossy, rude, self centered, self righteous, etc, etc. Still one of my favorite SW characters period.
     
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  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I prefer women like this to women who are passive.

     
  7. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    Also, Leia's sometimes harsh exterior may well have belied a more hidden softer side. Words can sometimes be deceptive.

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 20, 2013
    I think feminist arguments get way more complicated when you get into the realm of escapism/fantasy/wish-fulfillment. It is undeniably the case that looks/sex/age/race etc shouldn't matter at all if you're hiring an engineer, police officer, pilot, whatever.

    However, Hollywood, at least in part, is presenting a fantasy world for people to escape into where people are more glamorous, attractive, engaging, clever etc. So it's very hard to say that appearance doesn't matter, or shouldn't be factored in, when that is exactly what Hollywood is giving us and that's what we want from Hollywood.

    A very close female friend of mine who is definitely a feminist (knows feminist philosophy backwards and forwards) in part preferred Henry Cavill's Superman in MOS to Brandon Routh's Superman in Superman Returns because she found Henry Cavill cute but not Routh. That wasn't the only reason why, but that was part of why she liked Henry Cavill's version of Superman more so than Routh's (but less so than Reeves' in part because of Reeves' better performance). Now imagine Dom Deluise as Supes. Even if he could nail that part as an actor, he would fail simply because of the way he looks.

    Every good guy lead actor in The Avengers, the OT, the PT, the ST is more attractive than the average person in our world, and I don't think people should be criticized for admitting they like an actor/actress in part because he/she is attractive.

    And let's be honest, most people, regardless of the sex, have "liked" or "been interested in" (most likely in a lustful way) someone purely for their appearance alone -- i.e. basically, the only reason you are interested in that person is that you like what you see when get a chance to see them with very little clothing on or dressed in clothing that accentuates their shape: Wow, I really like the way that person looks! Let's look at some more images of said person on the Internet!

    If slave Leia perks up someone's interest in Leia in this base/lustful way, I'm not going to judge. That's human nature.

    If someone, however, can only identify with a character based on their looks, then that person probably is pretty shallow because it would seem pretty likely that that person judges people in real life in much the same manner.

    So, when someone says -- "I like to see an attractive person with an attractive body in situations that actually allow me to see that person's attractive face/body," then I have absolutely no problem with it whether it be a bathing suit clad Halle Berry or Daniel Craig rising out of the water or Carrie Fischer in a slave bikini. That "voyeur" is only admitting to having basic human drives.


    Again, what I'm talking about is totally different from the choice to put Leia in the metal bikini. It may have been inappropriate to put her in that outfit. Since this argument isn't the easiest of calls, I'll go with another example -- JJ's choice to show scientist Carol Markus (Alice Eve) in her underwear in Into Darkness. That was totally an example of inappropriate and gratuitous female objectification. That served no plot purpose whatsoever.

    So, here's my reaction to that scene. Did I find Alice Eve attractive to look at there? Yep.

    Now, was that scene appropriate? No, it certainly wasn't. She was presented in a way that was solely meant for us, as the audience, to see her as a sex object and it reduced her as a character.

    So, for me, a scene like that leaves me with a conflicted response: I certainly find her attractive, but at the same time, I'm kind of icked out because I find it inappropriate. That conflicted response also doesn't change my overall opinion of the scene. It feel it was definitely wrong to include that scene.


    For slave Leia or Magic Mike, I think the same logic comes into play. If you think the depiction is inappropriate, then you're likely to have a conflicted response. If you think the story justifies that choice, then you won't feel conflicted.


    But again, for someone to say that he/she likes to see an attractive actor/actress in a state of dress that makes it easy to see how attractive that person is rather than dressed in parka and snow gear from head to toe. That's sort of a no-brainer, and I totally agree, and I don't think there's thing to be ashamed about when admitting so.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    There isn't anything wrong with finding a character attractive, in a certain outfit or just in general.

    As I have said in other threads and previously in this one, there is something wrong with demanding that a character be "sexed up" because she is a woman. This demand sometimes shows up with male characters, but it is usually in reaction to Every. Damn. Female. Character. being drawn/depicted half-naked.

    That said, I'm not going to endorse the "take your shirt off NOW" demands directed at male characters and regret the times when I have participated myself.

    And for the purposes of this thread, I have zero tolerance with using physical appearance as a "personal flaw", whether we are talking about a fictional character or a real person. It's superficial, juvenile, and makes the asinine insinuation that anyone is obligated to look a certain way to make society happy. That insinuation is many loads of bull****.
     
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  10. DjangoKet

    DjangoKet Jedi Knight star 1

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    Oct 15, 2015
    Can i get a Hallelujah!

    Seriously i dont think its sexist or degrading if she owns it like Carrie Fischer did. The whole point is that Jabba has his slave women dress like that because he sees their sexuality as their primary/only value. The guy is a 'vile gangster'and Leia takes him down like the badass she is. The whole rescue is fresh take on the classic 'Damsel in Distress' thing but with the genders reversed. Han is the damsel, Leia comes to his rescue. To me its more important what shes doing than what shes wearing. Drax the destroyer never wears a shirt.
     
  11. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 20, 2013
    I totally agree. I think this is most particularly true of comic books. In old Hollywood, it's a little different but often just as bad. There's not a lot of skin, but many times the worth of woman is only her attractiveness. I'm glad Hollywood is giving us Ripley, Katniss, Sarah Connor, Divergent girl, Rey, female X-men mutants, etc.

    I don't follow what you mean.

    I agree that harshly bashing an actor/actress/director for their appearance is inappropriate ala Donald Turmp/Rosis O'Donnell (she's an ugly fat pig), but would you say that a comment like the following is inappropriate -- "Dom Deluise is a horrible casting choice for Superman. He doesn't look the part."?

    Also, are you saying that you personally disagree with such an opinion or that you would erase a post that expressed such an opinion and warn its poster in your role as a mod?
     
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  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    "So-and-so does not look the part of this character" is not a problem. "So-and-so is ugly" is not appropriate for this forum; I disagree with such commentary personally but it was discouraged long before I became a moderator, and not just in Classic Trilogy either. An entire thread was locked in the YJCC because its purpose was to objectify famous people. And when we are talking about Star Wars-related celebrities, there has been an anti-bashing rule in place regarding them for several years.
     
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  13. Obi-John Kenobi

    Obi-John Kenobi Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 30, 2012
    So not only is slave leia merchandise being banned, even talking about the ban is banned. lol Got it.
     
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  14. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Um, no.

    There are about five pages of discussion on that topic here that you are welcome to participate in.

    What is being "banned" is calling it a "personal flaw" that Leia is not wearing that bikini for all three of the Original Trilogy movies.

    If there is nothing left to discuss regarding Leia's personal flaws beyond "She does not dress sexy often enough", maybe this thread has run its course. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn .

    If there is more to discuss, let's get back on topic.
     
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  15. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 20, 2013

    I appreciate you response. Personally, I think threads like -- "Who is the hottest male/female in Star Wars" -- are okay. (Maybe people are so likely to say inappropriate things in such a thread that Mods figure they're bound to be closed anyway.) I'm still not entirely sure if "Hottest People" threads are acceptable or not, but it's not a big deal to me either way. Again, thanks for your explanation of the rules.


    RETURNING TO TOPIC

    To me, Leia in ANH seems elitist, snobby, speciesist, rude, and strangely complacent soon after the destruction of Alderaan. I don't find her particularly likable in the film. Most of these negative qualities seem to diminish in TESB, and her biggest flaw there seems to be that she's not in touch with her emotions. By the end of TESB and through ROTJ she really doesn't seem to have any major flaws.
     
  16. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    I appreciate you response. Personally, I think threads like -- "Who is the hottest male/female in Star Wars" -- are okay.
    --------

    I think if there were to be such threads, they should be appropriately worded. I would have no problem with "who is the most attractive person in the saga to you?" as long as it

    1) stayed on this side of decency and respect
    2) it included both sexes.

    sorry for derailing the thread.
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    You're fine, and you can try Comms if you want but I think the policy is pretty well set.

    Let's go with something like this as a discussion point.
     
  18. True Sith

    True Sith Jedi Master star 4

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    May 10, 2015
    Her holding it together after seeing Alderaan blow up showed great strength on her part, IMO. Another major reason that Leia isn't in the best mood after she's rescued is that she clearly is annoyed by Han's freewheeling style. I mean, he's obviously making it up as he goes along, which was probably a far cry from the professionalism Leia was accustomed to. She then has to take charge of her own rescue mission, which was an awesome moment for her I thought.
     
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  19. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    I always thought the 'hotness' threads were fine and I was a regular contributor, even as a mod. Occasionally someone would overstep the line but for the most part people contributed appropriately and in good humour. People think people are hot. It's a fact of life and it's okay. It's when there's an attitude that a person should be judged entirely on their hotness, or lack of it, or that they should have to conform to some kind of formula, that there's a problem.
     
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I defended the right to say "So-and-so is hot" in the Sexism Policy thread in Comms, and I participated in a hot celebs thread myself with a picture of Taye Diggs. I think it got creepy when people started elaborating on "hotness" (descriptions of body parts, "I'd hit that," etc.). The subject came up in this thread when someone brought up a few pages ago that it was a "flaw" that Leia wasn't "sexed up" enough or something in the first couple of films, which goes way beyond "she looked hot in ROTJ."

    Agree completely with your last statement, that's pretty much where I stand as well.
     
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  21. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    The "walking carpet" line is her biggest flaw. It's chuckle-worthy in a hokey 70s sci-fi way, but in-universe it's pretty shockingly rude coming from a cultured leader of a rebellion trying to take down an oppressive regime.
     
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  22. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004

    Yeah. It's a not very well thought through, dated piece of dialogue.
     
  23. PHIERY

    PHIERY Jedi Master star 2

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    Feb 7, 2009
    Based on all the posts I have read relating to this topic, it appears all of Leia's personal, positive attributes should actually be credited to the man who created this female character. And all of the personal flaws such as emotional, spiritual and ******** are fault of the actress portraying her.
     
  24. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    I think it works considering she's basically a stuck-up rich core-princess in ANH. She has a few joice-words about the Falcon too, because she isn't used to fly in a "hunk of junk".
     
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  25. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    Well Luke called the Falcon a piece of junk as well, so I always thought it was more a case of the Falcon looking hopelessly outdated to everyone but Han and Chewie. But cool that the walking carpet works for you. It's not a big problem for me, but more one of those small moments where the seams are showing.
     
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