ST We Must Stop with the Mary Sue Putdowns

The notion that they MAY explain it in the future sure doesn't make this a good movie

 

OMG TOM SERIOUSLY. ARE WE BACK HERE.

 

You don;t need to be told every single thing dude lmao. The prequels did that.

I hear she's a scavenger whos lived by her self ever since she is five so those are the things i assume she's learnt.

Did you want the movie to give a five minute scene on why she understand languages?

 

We will. but if JJ left the reveal in that she's Luke's kid, we wouldn't be having it.
at least i don't think so.
but c'est la vie. The scenes work because i believe she is Luke's kid.
if she turns out to not be, those couple scenes will annoy me like c3po talking about anything.

 

Haha could you not find your name again LOL and yes we are crazy!!

 

Says who? You? It doesn't even make sense, if you are innately gifted in the Force that you can only be good at one thing? Anakin is also clearly shown to be good at multiple things with zero training. He can build/fix complex machinery like an adult mechanic, build droids, win pod races, etc. etc.

None of this stuff really is important to Star Wars writers. Never has been. How the hell did Luke become a full Jedi after basically what amounts to like maybe 6 months of actual training (not to mention both of his teachers die on him)? Shouldn't he need like I dunno ... 20 years of training? Or even 5 years?

 

I still have my name! I just was stupid when I originally made it and I had an email with my exact username here and if you google that name all my posts come up and omg seeing myself and what I posted on here when I was 19 is the ultimate cringe moment. I needed a new name lol.

but now when someone else calls me a newbie I can direct them to you to correct them haha.

 

Did I wander into like, a Mortal Kombat thread or something...

 

Hey, Lera.

Let me start by saying that my only intention in writing this is to give you a psychic hug, so let's agree to filter everything through that. Secondly, I absolutely believe that a significant portion of the backlash against Rey is gender-based and is at least a bit sexist, and I think a lot of people who are responding with that don't see themselves that way and don't see the situation that way, so telling them how wrong they are is never going to help in any way, if that's all you do.

I can also totally – and I mean 200% – understand how Pfluegermeister's post came off as 'condescending' to you, but I don't believe that was – I'm gonna guess 'his' – intention at all. He just wants peace on 'his' boards in 'his' fandom. My feathers ruffled at the idea that new people can't express opinions at first – but then I noticed that's not exactly what he said. This isn't about me or him anyway, though; it's about you.

I don't know you, so of course I may be totally off-base, but it sounds like Rey (in all her super-powered glory and awesomeness!) is important to you in a similar way to how Finn is important – like REALLY I.M.P.O.R.T.A.N.T!!!!! to me, as a black man.

I'm not trying to presume anything here, and I hope I'm not offending you, but based on all the personal experiences you listed and the fact that you're 'into' fandom generally in addition to being 'into' Star Wars specifically, I'm guessing Rey for you is kind of a 'big deal.' I mean did JJ nail it or what? HOW did he think it was 'just O.K.' for Finn to take a name given to him by a perceived-white man he just met?? Oops… Sorry. That kinda happens. : )

Back to you. I also get the feeling that, Rey or no Rey, this issue is pretty close to your heart, as it should be. You're prepared to be defensive cos you've had need to be, and that's smart. You're also on a mission to make sure this magic Rey moment counts, and so am I – and between you and me, I think the filmmakers are too. And that's AMAZING! This is an incredible moment! These debates and conversations are happening because these characters EXIST. Until now, there was literally no conversation to have. This is a great time to be a fan! This is a great time to be part of the community. And that's my concern.

I don't think Pfluegermeister intended to condescend you, but even as he talked about taking you seriously, I didn't feel he really was. And then a little ways down or on the next page, possibly his very next post, he called you out by name without once addressing himself to you. Not cool. That pissed me off a little bit and it has literally nothing to do with me.

But here's the thing: just because he doesn't communicate perfectly either, that doesn't make him a 'd**k,' (was that you?) and that doesn't make his observations worthless.

I share your opinion about Rey, and I deeply believe that just like women in the workplace, she needs to be overpowered in order to have 'equal' power. I love that her costume is so gender neutral a boy could wear it without 'cross-dressing.' I want kids of all genders and all races to want to be Rey the way little girls and boys of every race grow up wanting to be like the white men who are most of our childhood heroes. I share both your stance and your passion, and I only wanted to talk to you to let you know that both of those things are genuinely valued, at least by me – and I was still afraid to write to you.

Here's why:

'I have a voice and dont need the reasons I chose to use it approved by another person?'

But he wasn't saying he had to 'approve' of your reasons. He was actively telling you, as clearly as he could that he was trying to understand. Despite not quite making himself super vulnerable, ironically, I totally felt he was reaching out to you – and you bit his hand. And then you chewed the arm off.

'Maybe you don't understand, and I don't plan on you understanding.'

'…pointing out that a man couldn't know what it's like *as a woman* to experience sexism? majority of people will never truly understand sexism - what it looks like, what qualifies as it, the different forms it can take…'

'If you don't agree, I'd expect that, because I have had this conversation so many times in so many places in my life and nothing changes. nothing ever changes.'

You're right; he was a little arrogant and condescending, but he's right that you set the tone. You start, even here, with the idea that you don't expect to be understood. You say it at least three times. If this is 'how it always goes,' then yeah, change is good.

I don't know if you're interested in what I think, but I'm gonna tell ya anyway. I think it's absolutely RIDICULOUS and WAY TOO EASY to let white men off the hook by saying that they can't understand women's situations or blacks' situations. I also think the notion that racism is somehow uniquely about white people or black people or that many if not most white people have never experienced feeling uncomfortable about being their own race to be just as ridiculous. The problem is when we think it's about sex organs or skin color. It's not. It's about privilege, and almost everyone has experienced both having and not having privilege. So most people can be reasonably expected to understand what institutionalized privilege does when people are forced outside of that privilege systematically, or when people are automatically awarded privilege to abusive levels. Don't make it easy for people by allowing them not to understand. Make them. Tell them. But don't yell at them, cos then they'll just put their fingers in their ears and walk away. Your voice changes nothing.

Have a little faith that when people are being sexist or racist or just rude, that first off – you might be overly sensitized and wrong. But even if you're right, they might not be doing it on purpose. In most cases, I find, that level of stupidity only happens when people are on subconscious auto-pilot. When most people are thinking clearly, they aren't trying to make the world a less comfortable place for others. Start with the benefit of doubt. I'm not trying to tell you to 'calm down' or 'quiet down.' Just see what happens.

If you go into the conversation expecting the other person to hear you out and treat you with respect and they don't, and you call gentle attention to it and they still don't, then that person's a jerk. You don't even have to tell them. They either know and don't care, or they'll likely never know. Changing the jerks' mind is not your agenda. You said so yourself. You want to share. And personally, I want to hear what you have to say. But it's hard to know how to talk with you if I'm afraid. And I'm less afraid of you than the people who really need to – and maybe actually want – to understand your voice. I'm on your side of the fence with my 'I'm a minority so I understand!' card. Imagine how 'they' feel. HINT: There is no 'they.'

I dunno if that turned out like a psychic hug. I'm sure I didn't successfully communicate what I was really trying to get across; I can feel that. But, Lera, your voice is precious and valuable. Nobody cares this much who doesn't have something to say that matters. Have a little faith in both yourself and your audience that people can hear that. And when people really are jerks, call them out gently if it's really worth it to you, but don't become them. Don't let them trap you. It's not you. 'You're probly just too stupid to understand anyway' is not what you really wanted to say.

I hope that felt like a hug, or at the very least didn't piss you (or anyone else) off or make things worse.

PS: Merry Christmas! (For those who're into that.) Alternatively, have a fantastic day.

PPS: I hear what people hear are saying about the term 'Mary Sue' being 'old' and 'academic,' but to be perfectly honest I'm an online junkie who loves genre in every form – tv, comics, movies, books, animation – all of it. I had to Google it. Lots of posts in this thread are people asking what it means or saying they just had to look it up. I had never come across it before Rey, and now I see it all over the Web, not just here. I'm changing my stance and agreeing that 'thought police' are bad and if the word isn't nearly consistently pejorative almost to the point of being an actual slur, that's my ignorance. Cos almost every time I've seen it used, it feels close to me. Like 'high yellow' or 'haafu.' I don't like it, and how it makes some people feel is reason enough for me not to use it. But it's true; no one's words should be censored if their meaning is clearly not to offend – most of the time.

 

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/do-you-avoid-mary-sues.8120396/​

Lera_Swift

Thread from 2002 talking about Gary Stus and Mary Sues...Xizor a Gary Stu? Kyp Durron?

It's not a thing about Rey...

It's used all the time reviewing books...of which I own hundreds of star wars ones. In some books a character can be written Mary Sue like; in others it's a great character...sometimes it's inbetween.

Rey definitely set off my Mary Sue alarms while watching, based on my experience with books, theater, scripts, tv, and movies...

 

Now your making me feel old kid!

 

Quote: "She figured out how to bypass the compressor before Han did long after both Han and Rey knew that it would stress the hyperdrive.

She thought of a fix Han didn't consider."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, and totally plausible that an 18 year old girl, who never owned or piloted the ship, is going to tell a 70 year old how his ship should work...

And if I had any advice to give to a budding science-fiction writer, it would be to keep this very kind of pseudo-technical mumbo jumbo to a minimum, especially if it is for no other reason than to pump up the great competence of a central character... If Rey was a very secondary character, this kind of phony "pumping up" of her competence would be far more acceptable, because this being an unimportant character, it would not feel so ridiculously manipulative...

Gaston

 

"what's that flashing?"

Luke doesn't know how to pilot the Falcon in ANH.

Anakin doesn't know how to pilot the Naboo Starfighter in TPM.

Rey is a master (probably better than Han) at flying the Falcon.

It stands out in a bad way.

 

we've already had this discussion on how were both ooooooold now.

people are gonna get mad at us for being off topic lmao.

 

Yes it is true LOL! The First Order is not as powerful as Palpatines Empire and the Playing field is balanced. It says so in the Text Crawl and on Wookiepedia LMAO!!! They are just remnants.

 

For a remnant of the empire they did a pretty good, almost easy job of destroying the new republic entirely.
So this is the entity that Kylo is under and this what he represents when Rey destroys his credibility as a villain

Rey has pretty close to no flaws in the movie and that's only if you consider her positive qualities a flaw in itself
Whereas everyone else is pretty much working to get over their flaws and develop as characters
Rey is used to show how much better she is than everyone else and changes very little over the course of the movie

The fact that Han,Chewie,Finn,Leia(who called her some girl earlier in the film) all almost uncompromisingly love her instantly or by the end of the film is some sketchy territory to walk let alone defend.

 

Doesn't she say in the movie that she's been working on the ship? Her "boss" owns the ship.

 

the only reason i looked it up was because people were acting like it was offensive, which i find sadly ironic.
we are all bigoted to some degree. When people reduce conversations down to accusing others of being a bigot it really stops the conversation. That's the frustrating part of these types of conversations.

 

I can't for the life of me comprehend how anything you said makes any sense. Let's examine this.

NOT ON SCREEN? lol You know what else is not shown on screen?

• Luke learning how to make a lightsaber.
• Anakin's training
• Luke's training
• Han and Leia's first bits of romance
• Vaders escape after the battle of Yavin
• 80% of everything that happens in OT Star Wars

Are you trying to sell to me that Han didn't know what the upgrades meant for his ship when he tried to repair it? Are you trying to tell me he was just tinkering around blind?
If it went down the way you said, he'd just be over Rey's shoulder as she did her thing. The dude knew what he was doing. She was just more clever than he was in that instance.

So your argument is "Rey is better than Han. . .but there's a reason" now? At first I thought it was Rey isn't better, she just knew more about those upgrades? Can't you make up your mind?


Not only that but that scene of Chewie suggesting an alternative approach is something that fits for THOSE characters. That's how they talked in the OT.


How is it reaching? THAT WAS ONE EXAMPLE OUT OF MANY and you're struggling to even defend it.

 

no, not about the FO ~not being as powerful~ that's galactic politics more so, but the playing field is not ~balanced~...like, not even close...like, not at ALL?

 

I can't read this colored ****, im already staring at a backlit screen for god sake.

 

"and who's gonna fly it kid, you?'
"You're darn right I could!"
Bravado? Perhaps, but Luke was a pilot

also Leia jumps into co-piloting pretty comfortably. As far as Rey goes, she seemed to be doing a lot of learning on the fly, I wouldn't call her a master.

 

Star Wars is a fantasy fairy tale, not hard science fiction.

It's rife with "miracles" and unbelievable/improbable plot twists from day 1.

Luke destroys the Death Star with his eyes closed on his first try after basically zero training? Really George?

They're able to walk around the Death Star, rescue the princess, etc. etc. and get back to their ship alive? What are the odds on that?

There are about 50 other unbelievable things/coincidences/miracles/fortunate breaks that happen in the movies.

Acting like this is suddenly something new in The Force Awakens is lame.

How is it that the heroes in the Star Wars movie have like a 80-90% hit percentage with their blasters, whereas trained Storm Troopers are at like 8%? Does that make sense?

 

That sounds good enough for me. All right, I'll consider my honor salved, and all disputes solved. Friends? (offers hand)

If you WANT to discuss gender issues in genre fiction, here's a suggestion: some have suggested that Mad Max: Fury Road is a feminist piece, and I see where they're coming from, but I don't think it is. Neither is The Force Awakens. Both of those are more about men and women sharing the limelight, and the role of hero, equally. If anything, I think that Terminator: Genisys is more overtly feminist than either of those. The film is a clear soft reboot, but in reboots you get a shot at discarding what you think no longer works for the modern audience. I'd have to imagine that the idea that Sarah Connor has no importance other than to create John Connor, to love Kyle Reese only because she's fated to, would be distasteful to modern women, even though, as a character, she has always been inspiring as a strong and capable woman despite that problem. But the new Sarah spends sufficient time dwelling on the issue that I have to think it was on the minds of the writers. So their apparent answer was to eliminate that aspect and leave the rest of the ass-kicker in her intact; the price the film paid for that, in terms of the story, was that John Connor was left with nothing to do heroically, so they decided to make him a villain in violation of everything we know about the character and of logic. That, and the fact that, though I think the actress who played her tried real hard, she was still miscast to me, to say nothing of the actor who played John the Bad Guy, combined with a horribly over complicated script, sank that film where the two other major films we're discussing, both of which had extremely strong and admirable female leads or co-leads, achieved not just popular, but critical, acclaim.

I good-naturedly invite you to take that one on.

 

Chewie and the Falcon are meant to be Han's thing.

Han gets dropped into a pit and Rey takes them over despite only knowing these people for a very short time.

Falcon should have stayed on Starkiller and Chewie should have gone down with Han.

 

you obviously missed the part where I said I am sure there was mention of Anakin being a "mary sue" but the fact the conversation about Rey being one has been used too liberally and so fast and so vastly compared to ANY other male character is the bias. not that nobody ever once anywhere never had the same criticism.