ST I sense a disturbance in what we think about the force

I was watching a clip from ESB, when Yoda lifted Luke's X wing out of the swamp. And the lines from Luke "I don't believe it", Yoda's reply "That is why you fail". hit me like a ton of bricks.

The whole "setting things straight" aspect of this series is to put to rest that the force is some scientific construct where your ability runs in the number of midichlorians in your body. The force is again what it was in the beginning.

The ability to use the force is the same ability we all use to be absorbed by any story we are told.

It's once again the ability to suspend disbelief in the physical world around ourselves. It can still be something that runs strong in families, that your mental ability to suspend disbelief, has some genetic predisposition, but it's once again something you have to "believe in" to make it appear.

It goes all the way back to Obi-Wan's voice urging Luke to "let go" when he was making his trench run. Only when he suspended disbelief, shut off the the computer, and let go, did he make the perfect shot.

THAT is what we saw out of Rey when she was being beaten badly by Kylo and he offered to "Teach her the ways of the force", and she replied "the force", took a moment to concentrate and suddenly she turned and put the smack down on Kylo like he didn't know what he was doing.

Rey was strong at that moment because she, like Luke in the trench, "let go".

The force hasn't been about "letting go" for a darned long time. It's awakened!

 

Yup I agree. One must let go in order to feel the full power of the Force!

 

I think most can agree that introducing midichlorians and trying to quantify the force scientifically was one of the hugest errors George made with the prequels. I understand it was probably done ad an exposition device to show Anakin was the strongest in the force they had ever seen, but it insantly took the magic away.

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It also took something like "tapping into the force" yourself out of the equation in the psyche of the audience. We have the ability to believe the unbelievable, as did those original characters, and we identified with them. I think this theme is once again resonating with audiences, and will continue to be what the next 2 movies explore.

 

Well said, Homergreg. The force is akin to Chi (or Ki, Qi) in our world. Everybody uses it periodically and unconsciously but it takes training to learn to harness it at will and in significant quantities.

 

Here we go again.... Yes, anyone can tap into the Force if they have enough midichlorians in their cells. Not everyone can be a Jedi, no matter how much they believe they can just 'use the Force'. It doesn't work like that.

Abrams said as much in that they would respect the canonical aspect of midichlorians in TPM.

 

Is that the canonical way midichlorians work? I always assumed that one had a lot of midichlorians because one was strong in the force. That being strong with the force attracted and fed them. That's what makes it a symbiotic relationship. Midis 'feed' on the force, and provide the host knowledge of it's secrets.

Yoda had a high count both from natural ability and from years of training, the fact that Anakin had a higher count without training meant that the force was unusually strong with him.

 

I'm saying it's about suspending disbelief in the world you perceive and relying on the impossible to perceive. Audiences relate to that.

That little kid in the Vader mask with the Volkswagen making the horn honk, he's not manipulating his midichlorians. He's trying to believe in doing something he has no physical means of doing. If you ask him, he's using the force!

There's a whole deeper meaning to this too, parallels in life where we drop, we completely drop, our understanding of what we can perceive and let it go to what we cannot perceive.

Keep the midichlorians canonical, I don't care. Just let the story go on without it hindering the receiver of the story of having to consider them, and let the receiver of the story identify with the characters as much as possible.

 

Olibar1 "Is that the canonical way midichlorians work?"

It is quite clear that midichlorians are an indicator of one's Force prowess. That's why the Jedi tested potential recruits. Only those with a high enough count would be accepted and only make a Jedi after years of training. It stands to reason that someone with a low count has no chance of ever using the Force in a useful manner. It's really not that much of a big thing, just a scientific way of explaining why the Jedi are so few in number.

 

I was saying that anyone can use chi in real life; not that anyone can use the force in star wars

 

Baghdad "I was saying that anyone can use chi in real life; not that anyone can use the force in star wars"

...and I wasn't responding to anyone in particular . I'm just a little bit jaded with the whole thing now. The midichlorian issue is not a real biggy in my book, it certainly makes more sense than the Starkiller weapon for example.

 

Think of how someone like Neil Degrasse-Tyson felt when watching it. He probably threw up in his mouth.

 

Felt watching what?

 

The Starkiller base...and the science behind it

 

well we all know that laws of science and star wars have a very special relationship, starting from sound and fire in space to effing 3000 to 15000000K hot plasma just casually drifing through space without anyone getting frizzled instantly etc...

 

It's very tough to try and reconcile real science with the "science" of Star Wars. That's a piece where the audience, much like force users, suspend belief in what they can measure and evaluate. The audience has to let go of a little of what they know and let someone tell them a story.

 

Oh i'm not disagreeing that midichlorians are an indicator of Force prowess, I'm just suggesting that a high count is caused by Force prowess, rather than the cause of that prowess. Only kids with high natural potential were trained, but in the training, they also increased their prowess, and therefore raised their count through their life. Nothing in the PT contradicts this view, and in fact, midichlorians working in this way help explain why Qui Gon refers to them as being in a symbiotic relationship with force users.

 

What do you think it is that a force user does to attain Force prowess, and to conduct the Force?

 

The Force chooses who will be strong in it.

 

I understand that. How does one "Use the Force"?

 

Well, we know that the Midichlorians speak to people to tell them the Will of the Force (Qui Gon to Anakin). A Jedi is supposed to feel the force flowing through them, allowing it to both control their actions but also to cause it to respond to their will (Obi Wan to Luke). The stronger one is in the force, the more Midichlorians one will have, and it appears that this allows the user to better have the Force respond to their will. It's possible that the Jedi had this relationship backwards during the time of the Old Republic, and that in his exile, Yoda finally understood that "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

 

spoken like a true OT (rather than the Saga) fan.
midichlorians didnt do anything to 'take the magic away' and is hardly even a bad thing inserted by GL. if anything it gives us not only some interesting tidbits on the Jedi in the PT era, but also more on just how the force works when applied to a force gifted individuals potential. how some think it 'takes away from the magic' i can't fathom, as the force in and of itself is 'magic', flows through everything and everyone, and can be used in varying forms. nothing about the PT, OT, ST has changed that, if anything Rey's 'awakening' muddied the waters even more on force sensitive beings. Anakin (and the PT characters in general) and the force were able to be portrayed consistently to the audience, same as the OT characters. the ST though, we have a trained force sensitive character, who is gifted via familial blood get beat by a novice (that we know of right now) by simply 'closing ones eyes'. this is different to the Luke example used by the OP because Luke let the force in to help with a much more believable concept, "hitting the target" or "got lucky" (which Han says). with Rey we have to all of a sudden believe (while yes, Ben was injured) that 1) Rey could suddenly jump a few levels in dueling/combat (she was running and defending to stay alive just prior) 2) the force can do actually impede on Ben's ability and Rey's 3) the force can come to you in dire situations, as if its even more of a plot device now than ever before. 4) Luke was shown training, before doing what he did in both ANH and ESB/ROTJ, Rey was not shown training once. i have more issues with this (and the ala Obi-Wan jedi mind trick) and how it was handled, however, i absolutely loved Rey and loved TFA. i just cant see how one can hate on 'midichlorians' yet not hate on this aspect in the film, and, somehow, hype that part while simultaneously hating the other :S

 

They could retcon midichlorians if they wanted to. At the end of Episode 9 Luke calls a press conference at the new Jedi training center to announce that Jedi scientists have made new discoveries that have rendered the previous understanding (which was first discovered by ancient Jedi Knight "Culsa Rogeeg") of the correlation of midichlorians with the Force as, and I quote "Bantha poodoo"

It's actually quite easy, if you close your eyes and let the force flow through you.

 

Here's the whole point of this thread. The force user has to believe in the force, really believe, like I have no chance of doing it that way but I'm gonna shut down my targeting computer and I'm gonna "let go" so something I can't see, feel, and have no real quantifiable reason to believe it even exists take over and control your own instincts to put those two little plasma balls in that little whole and make that "One in a million shot". to save countless lives.

It's easy when the force is a way of life, when it's everywhere and using it is an everyday thing. It's not when it hasn't been seen in your neck of the woods. Here's what Han Solo had to say about it:

Ben Kenobi: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.Luke Skywalker: You mean it controls your actions?Kenobi: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.[Luke gets shot by the remote]Han Solo: [laughs] Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.Skywalker: You don't believe in the Force, do you?Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. [Kenobi smiles] Anyway, it's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.Kenobi: [gets up and takes a blast helmet] I suggest you try it again, Luke. Only this time, let go your conscious self and act on instinct. [puts the helmet on Luke, which covers his eyes]Skywalker: But with the blast shield down, I can't even see! How am I supposed to fight?Kenobi: Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them. [remote shoots Luke] Stretch out with your feelings! [Watches Luke succeed in blocking the lasers] You see? You can do it.Solo: I call it luck.Kenobi: In my experience, there is no such thing as luck.

 

I don't hate on the midichlorians. They're wonderful and they do their job. I just appreciate that using the force is back to being about suspending disbelief. It's back to watching in awe as a muppet levitates an x-wing and thinking that Luke will be able to do it if he really learns to believe in and harness it. I'm sorry I mentioned those things in the first place.