CT How strong was Sidious with a light saber

So hear me out where I'm coming from... So I've asked questions like "Was Old Obi wan stronger than Vader" and most of the answers were that no because Obi Wan had stayed inactive for 20 years while Vader was active in combat for 20 years. And I also asked: "Did Palpatine ever go into battles like Vader did on Hoth, or like in the Battlefront games?" And the answer was no, most people didn't even know about the Emperor's force powers. So if he never went into combat, then that means he stayed inactive for many years. So how strong was he with a lightsaber by ROTJ? Was he better than Luke? Better than Vader?

 

He was as good as the script said he had to be.

Personally, I don't think he should have used a saber at all. I'd rather see him use nothing but the Dark Side of the Force in combat. But, that's just me.

 

I think he was still powerful. There was something about him taking on 4 Jedi at once, and one of them turned and pledged himself to Sidious because he was in awe at his power (not Vader)

 

Yea but that was before he would sit in a chair ALL day and do nothing but stare at the stars.

 

That doesn't mean that Palpatine didn't keep up his skills. One can still train without actively seeking combat. However between the Imperial Army, Vader and the Inquisitors, Sidious didn't have to worry too much about the Jedi stragglers.

 

You see him just as decrepit looking in ROTS but with all the skill, I see no reason why he wouldn't maintain such power by ROTJ. Especially when he's got an apprentice who may or may not be entirely loyal. IMO.

 

My reading of Darth Sidious is that he gave up the lightsaber as a weapon of choice when the Jedi's went extinct. Even Yoda when training Luke did not focus on the lightsaber. Some Jedi's/Sith's see no use in carrying around a primitive weapon opting instead for what is electrical bolts to fling at their opponents.

 

yep - I will always consider it a mistake to show sidious or yoda using lightsabers

 

Why's that? I know your referring to the prequels.

 

Just felt it was very out of character considering the way they were portrayed in the OT (esp yoda).

 

Yes, they always seemed more wizard than warrior to me.

 

I personally liked them both using one *shrugs*

 

Palpatine wasn't really involved in active combat since at least The Phantom Menace. With his career as a politician, all of his Sith dealings went on behind the scenes. Of course, there's probably some EU stories that have him running around with a lightsaber during that period, but we're still talking about the movies here. Palpatine's facade to the public did not involve him being a powerful warrior whatsoever. Keeping that in the dark, I imagined there was very little, if anything he would have done himself, especially considering the forces at his disposal.

Obviously, he was still training and honing his skills. Being more isolated after becoming Emperor, he probably found more time to do this. No one questioned that he was more powerful than ever at the time of Return of the Jedi, hence Yoda's warning.

Was he still skilled with a lightsaber? I mean, I don't see why not. There's just little reason for him to use it. In the prequels, he only uses a lightsaber when confronting two of the most powerful Jedi in existence. Him defeating Luke while not even being armed with a weapon just demonstrates his power.

Anyways, he had a lightsaber in earlier drafts of Return of the Jedi, but the story just didn't call for it. Him nearly killing Luke just with the Force told us all we need to know. From the filmmaking perspective, just a "Force duel" (whatever that is) between him and Yoda and Mace just would have been awkward and anticlimactic. The message remains the same; lightsaber skills are insignificant next to the Force itself.

 

I didn't mind it considering the prequel era was a time of conflict for the Jedi against the Sith. Once the Jedi were all but extinct, Sidious didn't need his saber. He had the troopers and Vader, while he sat on his throne.

 

He could easily train himself with combat droids if he sees necessary. Either way, after completing his training, it wouldn't be very significant for him to exercise, the Force would easily guide him.

You're saying that like lightsaber combat isn't the part of the Dark Side. It's sure a part of it.

People forgetting that Palpatine was giving advice to Luke about lightsaber combat.

Except lightsaber combat is a part of the Force too, Force speed / strength, Force jump and precognition (which is the blaster deflection technique) are all part of lightsaber combat, that is why Force users are preferring to use it, which is much more effective on the hands of Force users, instead of regular humans.

I see that fighters like Grievous / Finn changed many peoples' opinion on this, but the advantage of using a lightsaber for Force users is still important.

 

What I meant was that Force powers were often shown to simply trump lightsaber combat. That's how the Sidious/Yoda duel ended, and that's how Obi-Wan effortlessly disposed on Grievous during their lightsaber duel. Sidious simply shooting lightning at Mace was enough to keep him back while still fully armed.

On the contrary, Finn and Grievous didn't change what it meant to be a Force-user. In short, both of their respective duels didn't end well for them. They were both trained to a high degree in sword-fighting, but not being Force-sensitive immediately handicaps them in battle.

 

given his age, probably not quite as spy as he was 23 years earlier

 

​

No, I'm not saying that at all; I'm saying that Yoda and Sheev are so powerful in the Force that they don't need lightsabers.​

 

I feel he doesn't have one in ROTJ, not because he's so powerful he doesn't need it, but that it's just not necessary.

He doesn't get remotely close to battle situations like vader does, nor is he actively hunting down jedi like vader. Plus he's surrounded by his royal guards and other protectors.

I think if he had forseen Luke coming to Endor before he arrived, he may have brought his lightsaber with him just in case.

 

According to Lucas there are only 4 "9's" as far as light saber combat:

Yoda
Sidious
Mace
Anakin/Vader *before* the suit

At the time of the ROTJ confrontation Yoda and Mace are gone and Vader is in the suit making Sidious the #1 light saber wielder in the galaxy. He just didn't NEED his light saber in that circumstance. His force lightning was more than enough to put Luke down.

 

MidKnighT I think Nick Gillard said that, he also said that Anakin and Obi-Wan match each other perfectly, so Anakin's power up wasn't the sure bet.

Not sure how Sidious could kill that Jedi Masters quickly without his lightsaber, but I see your point here.

 

I think making the Emperor (or Yoda) use a lightsaber cheapened them to me.

For me - those characters had transcended the need for a mortal weapon. That their skill using the force for Sidious and in letting the force guide them for Yoda was all they needed to rely upon.

If you see the force as a mystic energy, like in Buddhism, as it was originally scripted you would see these characters as "enlightened" ... and why would an enlightened being require the tools of the physical realm?

 

He was pretty good then. Don't know if he retained his skills after the age.

 

Finn was not trained in the Jedi arts, he apparently had some basic combat training but was not as talented nor as well trained as the Riot Trooper who outlclassed him. Whereas Grievous was trained in the Jedi arts. Grievous however was artificial and relied on mechanical tricks and fear - primarily the fear of weaker willed Jedi, most likely padawans or young arrogant knights as we saw in TCW. When he went up against Kenobi in ROTS he was no match. Even on the TCW Grievous used a wide variety of tricks to attempt to gain the upper hand, usually it included using droids and lots of Magna Guards to wear down and weaken an opponent before he even enters the fight or even during a duel. Grievous never came off as a credible threat to a Jedi or even a Sith(Maul or even Ventress who made short work of him one on one). Grievous was a movie character, he could not die until ROTS but otherwise I do not beleive that character could've survived the duration of the Clone Wars. Kenobi could've killed him a few times before, Ventress and Maul could killed him even faster than Kenobi.

Anakin only defeats Dooku in the second duel after he taps into the Dark Side. Before that he was defeated by Dooku, seems only times during the TCW that Skywalker gained a slight advantage had more to do with him tapping into the Dark Side. Dooku was not able to defeat Yoda but fought him to a stalemate in AOTC. Sidious's matches with Yoda both in the TCW and in ROTS were lackluster and began with Sidious running away at first to eventually being overpowered and outclassed. So am not sure what to make of it other than old good guy will always defeat old bad guy, bad guy is also a coward and trickster.


We know in AOTC that Anakin was not as good as Yoda:

Obi-Wan: If you spent as much time practicing your saber techniques as you did your wit, you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman.
Anakin: I thought I already did.
Obi-Wan: Only in your mind, my very young apprentice.

Which would explain his failure to defeat Count Dooku lightsaber to lightsaber in the movie, while in ROTS Anakin's powers since "doubled". You cant really count the TCW here since the show was not in existence and once counted Anakin was still defeted by Dooku but we see Anakin's Dark Side temper always creeping in an almost there manner, but not quite he loses.

Darth Maul defeated Jinn who was trained by Dooku, he defeated Kenobi who was trained by Jinn. Skywalker was trained by Jinn's apprentice Obi-Wan and eventually able to defeat Dooku(with Dark Side taint) but was unable to defeat Kenobi despite full power Dark Side. So Jinn's apprentice was better than Anakin even despite Anakin being one notch higher with Dark Side. Supposedly Yoda even trained Dooku, and Yoda acknowledged that Dooku fought well, but the flip side is did he fight well because of his Jedi training, or because of the added Dark Side power. Yoda in the OT states clearly that the Dark Side is not stronger, yet other times you get authority figures stating otherwise, like Nick or even Lucas. Its almost as if they presume using the Dark Side means you're a cheater, while the Light Side is the good side, straight and narrow thus a natural. Does not really make any sense to me. Jinn even admitted before the Jedi Council that attacker[Maul] was well trained in the Jedi arts. So for someone like him to state that you know that person is a force to be reckoned with, good side or bad, does not matter.





Nick Gillard(trainer) said that about that stuff about levels. He said Hayden by name, but presumably he meant Skywalker had moved up from level 8 to a level 9 and went past Obi Wan who was at a level 8. So Nick says the real difference was the Dark Side, and thats the danger of moving up the levels too quickly you get in trouble. Am not sure how much of that is just a reference they use to rate how good the actors/combatants are in the duels they are devising on film to actually being within the universe or its somehow both.



www.youtube.com/watch?v=syRAP2YOUxI

By that point in the series(2004/05) Jinn and Maul were presumed dead one has to keep in mind. Jinn was right near Yoda in lightsaber skill alone(TPM novel) and Darth Maul defeated both Jinn and Kenobi in TPM. He demolished two Jedi at once, they're important & movie characters even, no nameless and faceless no names or fodder alone. Kenobi was down until Maul blundered like Anakin would in ROTS cause the director told him to something silly. Maul would later defeat Kenobi in a rematch during TCW. So Darth Maul is atleast a 9 or more for certain. So only Yoda, Dooku and Windu were the greatest swordsman left in the movieverse prior to TCW going backwards. Anakin remained around equal to Kenobi until he turned Dark Side, but he that did not save him as he was cut down by Obi Wan Kenobi.

From what I understand Lucas responded to a question in the The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith whether Mace Windu brought a weak group of Jedi with him for the confrontation with Palpatine by replying that "one would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine." Lucas would also state that after Vader's injuries he's on the same level as TPM Darth Maul(who was "dead" at the time) and the old Count Dooku.

"...which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."




We saw in Son of Dathomir Darth Maul charging right into and holding his own against two skillful Jedi Kinghts at the same time, Windu and Secura - and he looked to have the upper hand in the duel but the Clone Troopers were attacking and about to overrun the base. Maul was one of the few beings capable of going toe to toe with Darth Sidious. So its a pretty good bet both Darth Maul and Anakin Skywalker were level 9 swordsman which appear to be the best or greatest rank one can achieve. Both could've dropped to 8 after losing bits of their bodies as that was Lucas's thing, about how whole their body was being crucial to how strong they were in the Force back then. Lightsabers are intertwined with Force ability and users. So if they keep this intact, then both Maul and Vader have lost some of their strength due to their injuries. But again, both Maul and Vader are seen doing fantastic things despite their injuries and limitations caused by them. That said, Darth Sidious was the big bad of the movies, and he was a character that obviously could not be killed off or appear to weak otherwise that would damage his credibility by ROTJ and dampen everything. In the end its up to the writers and the plots the contrive. Yoda by default in canon remains the best lightsaber combatant for the good guys and Sidious for the bad guys because they're the headmen and presumably the trainers.

I do not see how Sidious was better than Maul, Windu beat the crap out've him out in the open one on one. Sidious's big move was that sonic scream and twirl in close quarters. But again thats the fault of Lucas and a case of director telling them to walk in all bunched up with lightsabers down. That scene was tailored for those other Jedi to be cut down the way they were. They may of all been able to defeat Sidious like Windu and Yoda would, but they were not bright . They were told beforehand that Sidious was the Sith Master but they walked in there all nonchalant and weapons out and remained all bunched up where their weapons all lit up would've cut eachother to pieces. It was not well thought out in-universe. They did not even spread out properly around the room, they just remained basically in that one corner and made worse that they did not even appear to know how to react to the fight. Was silly.

 

Maul was not better than Sidious in saber combat and Jinn was not on Yoda's level.

As for saber skills, each apprentice got more powerful:

Vader (pre-suit) > Dooku > Maul

This is evident in that padawan Obi-Wan put up a good fight vs Maul one on one but a more experience Obi-Wan got absolutely owned by Dooku twice.

Like Gilliard said, the only 9's are Yoda, Sidious, Mace, and pre-suit Vader.

Obi-Wan is an 8 in AOTC/ROTS. That makes Dooku about an 8.5. So Maul would be an 8.

Jinn was probably a 7.5 or so.

A more experienced Obi-Wan (from ROTS) would be a good match for Maul.