ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VII

I'm not defending the scene. And no, I do not think it's a fluke. I wrote the post because I felt baffled by several (many?) peoples misunderstanding of what this piece of visual storytelling actually meant.

First off, I think we already agreed that Kylo Ren found no serious problem dispatching Finn. (Among the people who say the fight seen is a "fluke" there are those who say that Kylo had difficulty fighting the ex-stormtrooper. Apparently that is really not true.)
I see what bothers you about why Kylo was defeated at the end by Rey, but what you seem to miss is that there was LOTS of build up to make this outcome possible.

Seeing that I will have to argument myself more as you seem to ask me to "admit" I'm defending a scene that you think is "fluke", I'll try to list things as a list with evidence that I think shows convincingly there is no problem about the scene:

First, about Rey:

- we have zero idea if Rey has had training before - there is that theory of her being at Luke's jedi temple for instance, but for which we of course have no proof yet. But let's say that that is a possibility. In her forceback she sees herself being left on Jakku wearing robes that resemble youngling jedi robes, and she looks around 5-6 years old...Especially since you have provided the clip with the younglings from PT - it would not be impossible to imagine that she may have been a youngling and thus may had had some jedi training...
- Rey has combat training - we saw her effectively use her staff on Jakku
- also it is implied that this is not the first experience of the sort (seeing that she is alone, a scavenger, has a rough life, etc.) so already established her like someone hardened by her life
- she manages to "drive" the Millennium Falcon, herself amazed at her abilities (it has been implied earlier that she is a pilot and is familiar with the Falcon, but still she feels amazed at how well she does)
- during her interrogation, Kylo Ren inadvertently unlocks something in her proof is the line in the movie after she escapes, Kylo says that she must be caught as soon as possible because the longer she is free the stronger she will grow with the Force...
-after Kylo Ren leaves in confusion after she succeeds in turning the table on him and being able to read his mind, she tries jedi mind trick (granted, we don't know if she knows about it, but this might be explained later when we learn about who and why she was left on Jakku...)

Here are two excerpts from the script:

(In the novelization we are straight up told that he finds a barrier in her that he unlocks...It seems it is implied that someone has lock down her Force powers...)

- Rey manages to pull the sabre from the snow and get it even though Kylo who is closer also beckons for it. First of all Rey sees what Kylo is doing, and decides she can give it a try I guess. That also is due to the fact that she is far more concentrated and attuned at that moment than Kylo is (see my Kylo remarks about that below)
- Rey picks up the sabre and is literally terrified and is obviously losing until the last moment when she manages to concentrate and we are literally shown that she manages to connect herself with the Force (it's another question that from the way she stabs and walks, etc. I see a lot of Dark Side users "physical quotes" in the way she behaves in those moments

Second, about Kylo Ren:

-Kylo Ren demonstrates several times that he is taking a very different special approach when it comes to Rey. We are given two symmetrical occasions where we are given clear comparisons of how different Kylo Ren's interactions with another character compared to his similar interaction with Rey is. The 1st such occasion is comparing Poe's being taken on Kylo's ship and his interrogation and almost an identical (but very differently played out scene with Rey. While he ordered Poe to be taken by stormtroopers on board, keeps his mask on while interrogating Poe, clearly tortures him and has no qualms of causing him physical and mental pain, etc Then with Rey. Despite the presence of stormtroopers who Kylo can easily order to bring Rey to the ship when he abducts her, he decides to carry her in his arms "bridal style" (Hm). Then he makes a point and takes his mask off for Rey although this is the first time we actually see his face in the movie (I think there is a significant parallel when the other time he removes his mask is at the request of his father Han Solo). Taking his mask off shows his vulnerability and one gets to think why would he want to show himself to Rey. Then there is the fact that during his interrogation of Rey Kylo makes effort to cause her as little discomfort as possible under the circumstances (This is developed quite clearly in the novelization, but I think it is evident in the way the scene is handled on screen as well, especially when I think we are deliberately been given two identical situations with very different treatment as I pointed out)
- Kylo is very powerful with the Force. This has been well established from the very beginning. However, before the final fight several things take place that are significant: Kylo kills his father, which weakens him significantly. This is proved by script, novelization and also very clearly portrayed by Adam Driver's spectacular performance in the movie. So, we can asume that this experience has seriously damaged him, weakened him. At that moment, Chewie shoots Kylo with the bowcaster, which is a weapon we have been shown is very powerful and has taken out several people before. What is interesting here, is that if Kylo was in ficus he should have been able to stop that shot just as he could stop Poe's blaster in the beginning no? But, no, the whole point is to show that at the moment of killing his father Kylo Ren is a mess, he is extremely weakened both mentally and physically. As a result, it is clearly established that he is clearly not even near his top condition at all.
- Then the scene in the forest follows. We see Kylo hitting on his bleeding wound that we can imagine is excruciating. Kylo manages to use force push to get Rey out of the way. There are several reasons he does that. First she aims to shoot at him with a blaster. He wants to deflect that blaster and we can imagine that he is enraged at them and at that moment he probably doesn't even care if she is killed or not. Let's call it a slip in his otherwise very careful treatment of Rey so far which we can explain by his unsteady temperament and violent outburst of rage (which we have been shown is is apt to have). Another reason he knocks her out of the way is that he wants to deal with the "Traitor" Finn without the distraction of having Rey around, which we know he wants to capture ever since she escaped from the interrogation room. We know that he seems to have his own motives to want to capture her (This is for instance implied by the fact that he acts on impulse by kidnapping her, instead of looking for the droid, special treatment, etc.) and also we know that he is given direct order by Snoke to bring her to him. So Kylo deals with Finn, as I have augmented in my earlier post and I feel it will be redundant to point that out. What is significant here is the second time (the first one being the two interrogation scenes) we are given two similar contrasting similar scenes where we see that Kylo treats two opponents very different. While Kylo is enragged at Finn, demonstrates mastery of swordsmanship (he does show off a bit, in the best possible way of course) and we see him hitting at his wound to give himself pain (for whatever reason). He is seething with rage when Finn ignites Anakin's lightsaber which Kylo claims (rightfully of course) as belonging to himself.
But in contrast what is Kylo's reaction, facial expressions and fighting strategy with Rey. It's completely different. When she beacons the sword to herself and ignites it, is Kylo angry or enraged? Does he shout that the lightsaber belongs to him? No, he doesn't. Hm. Why is that? (This is apparently something that will become apparent in the next two films obviously).
The look he gives her is of surprise and dismay, but there is also a bit of awe and admiration in the way he looks at her.
What does Kylo do during the fight with Rey. What is his fighting strategy. He chases her, hits not to really harm or kill, and she retreats backwards until he gets her cornered, and what does he do? He looks intently into her eyes and tells her she needs a teacher and that he can teach her....Hm. That's very...different, no? And then to his complete surprise she manages to concentrate (for which he gives her ample time himself) and with surge of the Force beats him up before he can even adjust his previous strategy which was definitely try not to harm and if possible convince to go back with him.
- My last argument is illustrated by what Snoke tells Kylo, after Kylo rushes to him after his mind probe backfired. Snoke says the following, which unfortunately was left out of the movie, I assume they didn't want to give off too much.

These lines indicate something important. Rey is not more powerful than Kylo. His sentiment towards her is making him less focussed and thus fails. It is not her strength as Snoke says, but Kylo's weakness towards her specifically. It is not really a question of weakness in powers or training. It's a different kind of weakness let's say.
So in sum, in their fight, Kylo's mental and physical state are shattered, he is completely unbalanced, the bowcaster injury is apparently a serious thing he is dealing with and the effects of the wound are bound to get worse with every passing moment (an injury like that will only go worse with time if not attended to and if one is physically strained - anybody who had had a wound of any kind would know the logic of that; the initial surge of adrenaline could keep one going for a bit, but after that it is all downhill from there despite ones physical strength); they are on an ice planet but Kylo is "sweating bullets", panting, etc. The injury is making him weaker by the minute, probably he is almost delirious at this point. He is actively trying not to harm her, definitely not kill her, and instead tries to recruit her, etc.


The Force:
- Why is my understanding of how the Force works seems to be different...The amount of training, expertise is important, yes, but it is not the crucial thing about using the Force...Yes, honing your connection to the Force is done via training, but the power connection to the Force is not a question of training. It is a question of if you believe in it, if you are connected to it and how powerful that connection is.
- Thus the question of Rey winning the duel with Kylo is also because at that very moment she is more in tune with the Force than Kylo is, who in means of training and power is her superior by far and there is no reason to doubt that. The thing with the Force is not if someone is a better trained swordsman, etc, but how attuned and how clear their connection to the Force is. Some people are naturally gifted with a strong connection to the Force. It is not that they have more power in them, rather than that they can tap more easily into the source of the Force.
Or so I'm led to think from all what we know about the Force from the movies...

Let me remind you how Master Yoda explains the Force in ESB.


Luke: "I don't believe it." Yoda: "That is why you fail."

And so, to paraphrase Yoda, size (and gender) matter not if you have the Force as you powerful ally. This I think is the message that the fight between Kylo and Rey demonstrates.

I sense that your disbelief with Rey winning is having the same problem that Yoda chides Luke for having. Rey had a powerful ally in the Force there for a moment that was sufficient for her to managed to overpower the completely unexpected (and very weakened and unconcentrated) Kylo and give him a nasty scar and almost killed him.

Luckily for us she didn't and we will enjoy this excellent character in the 2 sequel films to come and I'm also sure that we will learn more about their backgrounds and also Kylo's mysterious motivations. So don't judge things prematurely. This is the first film out of planned 3 total and we are apparently deliberately not given all the information and motivations about things and it is obvious that this fight will be seen very differently by all of us when the rest 2 movies come out. I think this is guaranteed.

So, no, the fight is not a "fluke".
We should not be drawing the conclusion that Rey is more powerful than Kylo, and if he was in his top condition and really wanted to fight her for real, she would have been dead.



So that we are clear, this post was not a "defence", but since you asked me to reply, I did.

 

EDIT: Apologies. Some technical glitch has caused a double post.

 

Number 1 - What you are saying doesn't make sense at all

Number 2 - You are free to question the likelihood of Rey's win. However, your arguments are honestly pretty terrible. You are telling us to ignore what is shown in the film in favor of your assumptions. Sorry, but that doesn't make sense.

I get it, you weren't sold on Rey winning. However most of your reasoning is just silly.


If I were to ignore what is shown and implied in the SW films and instead apply some real wold assumptions then I could call into question the plausibility of half the things that happen.

Battle of Yavin? Absurd...30 fighters against a battle station that probably has 1000s? Come on

 

I thank you for the post, of course. I should not have asked you to admit the scene was a fluke, my apologies. I do believe the scene is a highly improbable occurrence, however.

A question, what is your contention? Are you simply stating it is possible that Rey beats him? I, would of course grant that.

 

Not only it is possible. It clearly is a very logical outcome with what the movie has established. And also clearly within the "probability" of it occurring within the SW universe. No problem with the fight.
I'm sorry that you find the scene disappointing and implausible. That's unfortunate for you.

I found (and I'm sure many others) this fight scene really the best in SW. Mainly because of Kylo of course who demonstrates swordsmanship and style so elegant and impressive that makes this a lightsaber fight that both lacks the stiffness and oddness of the OT and the exaggerated and over-choreographed near-silliness of most PT fights which i greatly appreciate. Also, the emotions, the passion, the natural setting of the fight, all made this fight simply the best and a pleasure to watch. A masterpiece of visual storytelling, if I may quote Harrison Ford...

 

It is very clear you intend to focus on the saber duel itself, as opposed to the events leading up to the duel or the greater conflict at large between these two. The force push alone should demonstrate that Rey winning this conflict is improbable. For a variety of reasons, perhaps, but primarily because the likelihood of recovering from such an incident so quickly is quite low. She would then have to, after recovering from the force push, demonstrate unprecedented progression and telekinetically pull a lightsaber to her. She would then have to hope Kylo does not use force aggression because she had not proven she could resist not two minutes prior. If Kylo does not want to kill her, why duel her? He certainly doesn't have to.

Kylo's weakness towards Rey would have little to do with Rey obtaining the saber, recovering from the force push, and may increase the odds Kylo uses force aggression. You speculate that Kylo's force push is a deviation from the mean regarding his treatment of her, and is caused by his injury. Would it not make sense then, that his injury would later cause him to not hold back in a saber duel? You suggest he is getting weaker by the minute, possible I suppose. The significance of this is questionable, as there is no strong evidence he was bleeding out. This does not take in to consideration Rey's likely injuries, as is so often the case.

Most times this incident is played out, Kylo would be victorious before the saber duel is even reached.

You propose a variety of fan developed speculative hypotheses that attempt to explain why Rey is so adept. These are possible I suppose, but I'll consider them when they have significant evidence.

Your argument focuses around Kylo, and why he was not in his best shape. Of course he wasn't. We, however, get a clear picture of what he is capable of when he force pushes Rey and outduels Finn. In terms of pure probability, when Finn is disarmed, the fight among these three is likely over.

Rey has combat experience, sure. She had not done anything that would be above what jedi younglings accomplished in the prequels, but she has experience. The translation of skill between melee weapons is so commonly assumed to be instantaneous it is humorous.

You focus quite often on events in the duel, or in the conflict. That is not a very good thing to do when assessing probability. None of what is shown in the conflict has to be probable.

If you start your analysis of the likelihood of Rey defeating Kylo when Finn is incapacitated, it is categorically clear that Rey beating Kylo is a highly improbable occurrence.

 

Aaa. I see now that I clearly wasted my time replying to you providing actual arguments and evidence.

I really need to address the bolded parts and that's all.

You got to be joking? (This is rhetorical. No need for you to respond.)

Hm, it seems you have not been paying much attention when watching the movie. We are shown Kylo Ren bleeding out and beating at his wound when he intercepts Rey and Finn in the woods.

http://makeagif.com/6WDpHP#GY2hEvkFe4cqsgg0.18

I call this evidence strong.

 

I certainly don't need to reply. However, I'd like to briefly comment.

I've made it rather clear from the beginning that I assess the probability of Rey defeating Kylo from the point of Finn's incapacitation. And I disregard the film's portrayal of the conflict when assessing the probability as it would be unwise not to do so.

As I understand it, the term bleeding out means dying due to blood loss. The evidence for Kylo bleeding out is that he was bleeding, and perhaps if you are creative, hitting the wound (though I'm not sure that's actually evidence.) This is certainly not sufficient. Further, the novel does not indicate he was in danger of bleeding out.

 

If you really want to get medically technical, bleeding out isn't something we use in the hospital as a diagnosis, it's a colloquial term to indicate that a patient has an internal or external hemorrhage. In the sense of Kylo, it would be a correct usage to say bleeding out. He was shot in the inguinal/hypogastric region with a friggin' bow caster. It would be safe to assume that it's not out of the realm of possibilities he would be having some type of internal bleeding, gastrointestinal rupture, something.. that would signify a dire condition. We've seen Chewie's bow do work all movie.

 

On another note, Kylo Ren was an Undercover Boss tonight.

http://zap2it.com/2016/01/adam-driver-saturday-night-live-kylo-ren-undercover-boss/

 

I would imagine that bleeding out isn't used in a situation such as that. I was simply stating that there isn't much evidence to support Kylo is in danger of losing his life or consciousness due to blood loss in itself. Blaster wounds generally don't cause bleeding. So, it seems like Kylo may have been causing the bleeding himself by hitting the wound. All things considered, he seems to handle the injury quite well.

Of course, thank you for your perspective.

 

We don't really know if it doesn't cause bleeding. It knocked everyone else we ever saw hit with it (that had armor on) out of their universe. But...It's a bolt. Why wouldn't it cause bleeding? Considering where it hit his body, it's highly unlikely that it didn't hit something. Statistically speaking, where it hit him, and the fact that the bolt uses plasma energy, think of the odds (I know you appreciate odds) that it didn't at least graze an organ. He's absolutely in pain, I think you can assume that because he's drenched in sweat. You can hit a wound all you want, but if there's not enough damage then the cells have already coagulated. And he's definitely bleeding. He's very strong in the force. I don't know why it's not more likely that he just used it to guide him through as much as he did.

 

This weapon may be different than the typical blaster that doesn't cause bleeding. I agree the injury should be significant. However, his actions after the fight seem to suggest he is at least handling a significant injury very well, or the injury is not significant.

If the injury is significant, but he has still proven himself capable of swordsmanship prior to fighting Rey, he should win. Rey is an individual who has never used a lightsaber before and who's combat prowess is eclipsed by Jedi younglings from the prequels. Luke's first experience with a lightsaber is embarrassing in comparison.

It is ineffable how I feel about this scene, truly. Such a shame this scene is in my eyes.

 

I feel that he should've won, regardless, too. But that's my own bias getting in the way. I simply disagree with the writing. I still love the movie.

On that note, I think it's clear what JJ's intentions were and he absolutely wanted the audience to infer that Han and the blaster had a huge impact.

 

The scene is the final statement. Still, it was also obvious that the writers wanted to attribute a large amount of credit to Rey for winning this duel. Having Kylo best Finn beforehand to show Kylo was still capable of fighting, and then having Rey win after powering up.

 

Please try actually watching the movie where they go through great lengths to explicitly show the injury and that it's impacting Kylo.

It's very hard to take you seriously since you continually make things up and refuse to acknowledge what is actually in the movie

 

Was he not capable of swordsmanship, did he not go for a run after being shot, did he not telekinetically manhandle Rey? I suppose you could say there are clues he's injured. He's bleeding, he staggered a bit after first being shot, and he was hitting his wound. So, he was injured, but managed to still do things that indicate he is capable of fighting. Precisely what I have been saying.

 

it is canon ?

 

Well, I can tell you people trained for stage combat typically start with a quater-staff, and the techniques learned translate almost directly to sword play. She uses the saber in a manner pretty consistent with a staff. She never really displays any elegance in her technique, and when she is successful, it's mostly becuase of the Force, not becuase of her mad skillz. Kylo has more skill, but he is obviously having trouble calling on the Force in that fight.

 

Again, you continue to impose your assumptions about the state of the characters and what their actions mean instead of paying attention to what is shown in the film.

We actually no idea how well or consistently he's able to draw on the force, we have no idea how injured he is or how much pain he is in, we also don't know how much he's having to rely on the force to sustain him. Again, I'm not saying your opinion is wrong... .but you have assumed your answer to the things I just mentioned is correct despite the fact it conflicts with a lot of what is shown and implied by the film.

Here's the thing, the filmmakers clearly either tell or imply why the fight ended up the way it did:

- Kylo is injured; they go out of their way to remind us of this
- Kylo is disturbed after killing Han; this is more subtle, but it's pretty clearly (at least IMO implied)
- Kylo wasn't trying to kill Rey; He comes out and pretty much says this (which I actually think pretty much makes a lot of these arguments moot, but whatever)
- Rey uses the force to momentarily overwhelm Kylo at the very end of the fight; again this is clearly shown.

Again, you are free to not accept these explanations, and that's fine...... but to somehow tell us that any of these things aren't true is kind of silly.

 

Yeah some people are just completely to listen to the other side AT ALL!! It's the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalalala I can't hear you, it still sucks." Especially when you say things like this:

It is very clear you intend to focus on the saber duel itself, as opposed to the events leading up to the duel or the greater conflict at large between these two

This is just flat-out WRONG!! Not a "difference of opinion," just wrong. Obi-Wan Solo-Skywalker pointedly DID NOT "solely focus on the duel." He went into quite a bit of impressive detail about how Kylo acts earlier on in the movie, the difference between how he treats Rey vs. other characters in similar situations (I mean I personally found his treatment of her during the interrogation to be really creepy. But even I got the sense that, in his own mind at leas, he thought that he was treating her relatively mildly all things considered. Talked about how Rey was characterized up until that point. Pointed out the context/sequence of events that lead up to the duel, and speculated on some possible scenarios (because it seems fairly clear that Rey's abilities are being deliberately played up as being mysterious, perhaps as a future plot point).

It's an impressive analysis I'm fact. And to casually and inaccurately dismiss it like that shows either that one didn't bother to read the whole thing, or just flat-out misrepresented what was said. Either way, it doesn't help ones argument.

 

Think of it like a Boxing match, let's say Boxer A takes a MASSIVE Body Blow, that staggers him, he recovers and seems ok, initially he might be ok, However the Damage is done, Boxer A will decline much faster than his opponent, Boxer A would be forced to try and knock out Boxer B, he knows he won't last the fight.

You see parallels in the Kylo / Rey/Finn duel at first he seems ok, he's already sweating profusely due to the shot, but physically he's in OK shape at this point, So he slams Rey against a tree knocking her out temporarily, He uses up a fair amount of energy dispatching Finn (somewhat carelessly mind you). Now IF Ren wanted to destroy Rey, he'd have to do it quickly, by this point he's probably starts to fatigue, However, he doesn't have any intention in doing this. He wants to Recruit Rey, so (as someone said before) simply deflects Rey's Blows (relatively easily at this point) again more energy expended, then comes the moment he actively tries to recruit her, it backfire massively! Not only does he fail, it stirs up Reys Natural strength with the Force and she can begin to OverPower him, problem is Ren is pretty knackered by this point. You can tell by the way he swings wildly, Similar to how a fatigued boxer knows he must go for the Knock out or he is sure to lose, Sloppy wild, tired swings are pretty easy to overcome though. As Rey easily shows.

Still baffles me how people don't understand this.

EDIT: Also Blaster Bolts clearly cause Bleeding in this Movie. The very first Scene shows this, Poe shoots a Stormtrooper, who obviously bleeds (wipes it on Finns Helmet) So no, Kylo didn't cause himself to bleed or whatever

 

It should be canon! Its alwaye fun when fictional characters from films are reprised in parodies by their original actors. Adam Driver is a boss.

 

I'm wondering if we'll end up seeing Kylo show any aptitude for piloting in Episodes 8 or 9. The guy is the grandson of Anakin Skywalker and the son of Han Solo after all. Perhaps that deleted scene of him sitting at the controls of the Falcon on Starkiller Base was a bit of a hint of his past as Ben Solo.

I'd honestly prefer to see the lightsaber duel rematch between Kylo and Rey held off until Episode 9, and see the two engage in a starfighter dogfight in Episode 8 instead.

 

I feel like there should be a rematch, and this time he defeats her. Heck it'd be a nice reversal if, this time, he exploits her anger/emotional instability, in order to make her reckless/sloppy.

Then the grudge match in Episode IX has all the more significance.