ST Theory: Kylo and Rey have met before

If I had to bet money on anything TFA-related, I would bet on Kylo and Rey having met before. I’m as sure as it’s possible to be that Kylo knew Rey when she was a young child, prior to her being abandoned on Jakku - with this post, I set out the reasons why that’s a solid bet.

1. “What girl?”

The first indication comes early on, when the unluckiest lieutenant on the Finalizer, Dopheld Mitaka, goes to Kylo Ren with the news that the droid has escaped. Kylo is majorly pissed, and hacks and hacks at a console with his lightsaber after learning that Finn was involved. What’s really interesting, however. is his reaction to hearing that “a girl” was with Finn and BB8. Instantaneously, Kylo violently Force pulls Mitaka towards him and demands more information. The film then abruptly cuts - whatever happened next, we’re not permitted to know it.

Rey is not identified by name, and Kylo can only know - from Mitaka’s report - that an unknown girl from Jakku has became caught up with the droid. There is absolutely no reason for him to react with such shock, curiosity and violence unless he was already aware of - I would even say paranoid about - a particular girl living on Jakku.

2. He is more interested in hearing that Rey is present on Takadona than the droid.

This is a brief, but important, moment. When Kylo first stalks across the rubble of Takadona, he is addressed by a stormtrooper who reports that BB8 and Rey have been spotted in the forest. He does not immediately respond to the mention of the droid, but instantly looks in Rey’s direction as soon as he hears the girl mentioned. Whether he’s entirely conscious of it or not, it’s already determined - his true prize is Rey. Again, this implies he has been ruminating on her since learning that a “girl” was involved. He is heavily invested in her, to the point that she distracts him from his true mission. And such an investment cannot be arbitrary - he has reasons, known only to him, for wanting to find her.

3. The abduction

When he first sees her, Kylo does not respond to Rey in the manner of someone confronting an enemy with information they need. He responds to her with profound fascination and curiosity, prowling around her as if he can’t believe what he’s seeing and moving his hand close to her face. While it’s difficult to judge because we can’t see Kylo’s face, it plays to me as a man looking at someone who seems to them like an intriguing puzzle, something to be deciphered. Rey is familiar, but she’s also a mystery - and that would make a great deal of sense if he only knew her as a young child, and is regarding her as a grown woman for the first time.

4. Rey’s interrogation vs Poe’s

The presence of two interrogation scenes with Kylo in the film is very, very important. We are meant to compare them and perceive that Kylo’s conduct with Rey could hardly be more different from his conduct with Poe. Kylo considers Poe a human chew toy to be mercilessly subject to his savagery, and leaves him unconscious and bloody without as much as a backward glance as soon as he gets the information he needs. By comparison, Kylo is gentle with Rey - he’s also far from focused, dwelling on her memories and feelings as he encounters them. He seems greedy for her experiences, and craves connection with her.

It’s subtlety implied that he knows Rey is Force sensitive (”don’t be afraid. I feel it too”) prior to her invasion of his mind - while that is undoubtedly one facet of the connection between them, it plays to me as if there is something deeper there. He shows concern and compassion for her; both of these responses suggest a level of prior familiarity. Kylo feels no inherent connection to or pity for the young and innocent - if he did, he wouldn’t have casually ordered the massacre of an entire village. That can only mean that Kylo values Rey as an individual - for who she is, rather than for her external qualities.

5. The duel

I won’t dwell on this because the duel is relevant in much the same way as the interrogation is relevant - Kylo treats Rey markedly differently from Finn. All of the actions he takes in relation to her - from slamming her against a tree to parrying her blows - indicate that he is trying to disable or disarm her. He goes out of his way to avoid causing her unnecessary physical harm (as he sees it. some harm is necessary to subdue her), because that’s the furthest thing from his mind. At the cliff face, it’s important to note that his offer is not phrased as an offer - it’s phrased as a statement of fact: “You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force!” That phrasing indicates deep personal investment in her, and a certain covetousness - she is to become his pupil, not Snoke’s. Their relationship, as Kylo perceives it, is purely between the two of them.

It’s worth mentioning the novelisation here because there are various elements there that make Kylo’s prior familiarity with Rey explicit. The most important of these comes when Rey claims the lightsaber:

Now, Pablo has (on Twitter) implied that when Kylo says “it is you” he is referring to the ‘awakening’ of the title, which Snoke and Kylo discuss earlier in the film. However, to make that link is a massive stretch, and it’s further undermined by the narration that follows in the novelisation (”he seemed to know more about her than she did about herself”). It plays much more as if Kylo had been almost positive about her identity since meeting her, but had his suspicions entirely confirmed the moment he saw the lightsaber in her hand. And if he had last seen her as five-year-old child, his initial doubt over her identity would make sense.

6. The name game

One of the most intriguing Pablo tweets of late read as follows:

Now, it would be easy to interpret that as meaning Kylo has never met Rey before and has no idea who she is. The alternative ‘between-the-lines’ interpretation, however, would indicate that Pablo is being very literal when he says Kylo doesn't know Rey’s name - to put it plainly, he could well have known Rey in the past without being aware of what she calls herself in the present.

This interpretation is backed up by several of the junior novels released to tie-in with the film. Before the Awakening, for example, says that she merely “calls herself Rey” - the implication being that Rey is a name she adopted for herself since she didn’t know what she was actually called. Rey was five when she was dropped off on Jakku, and a child of her age will have certainly known her own name, but whoever was hiding her there clearly wanted her not to be found. It’s strongly implied that Rey had her memories suppressed and distorted, and if someone was as intent on secreting her in the middle of nowhere as they seem to have been one of the first orders of business will have been to ensure she forgot her true name (if she is a Skywalker or a Kenobi, the last thing they would have wanted will have been her wandering around telling people).

Those are my main reasons for thinking that they've met before. I'd welcome other people's takes on this, so post away!

 

I'm also 110% sure they've met before, for the same reasons you stated.

I'm working on a theory about Rey's lineage (spoiler alert: I think they are siblings) and this line of thinking is a major part of it.

 

Excellent post. I've thought about this a lot, and after my first viewing my thinking was along the same lines as yours. Since then, I've come to another conclusion. These clues do point towards Kylo Ren having knowledge of Rey prior to meeting her in the woods of Takodana. But there is another alternative you aren't considering: Kylo Ren may know OF Rey without having actually met her.

The "What.GIRL?" moment hints too much of prior knowledge on Ren's end, for the reasons you've outlined so well. Definitely his reaction hints to him knowing about a specific girl. But is it possible that his reaction is due to him having sensed Rey through the force?

We know he's aware of an awakening; he says as much to Snoke. But consider this: just as Rey saw Kylo Ren in her lightsaber induced vision before she actually met him, is it possible that before actually meeting her, Kylo Ren saw or sensed Rey in his own vision/dream, or even just through the force?

Alternatively, he may know of a specific girl in Jakku, descendant of...*insert name* Palpatine? Obi-Wan? Luke?

OR a specific girl in Jakku of whom a prophecy was once made, bla bla. These possibilities are more unlikely to me, because whatever Ren knows about Rey, it seems Snoke does not. Where would Ren get this information about Rey from, without Snoke's knowing? The more likely possibility to me is through the force.

As for the rest of your points, I fully agree it hints at the possibility of Kylo's knowing both about Rey and about her force sensitivity. By the time Kylo Ren arrives in Takodana, it's clear that his true prize is Rey, and he definitely seems fascinated by her. But this could also be explained by having sensed her in the force, not just by actually having met her already.

One of the reasons why I am so captivated by the relationship between Ren and Rey, whatever it may end up being, is that I see him treating her as an equal in many ways; something he doesn't do with anyone else, regardless of whether they stand on the dark side or the light. It could be a familial relationship, a peer relationship due to a shared past as students with Luke, or just recognizing a powerful force user that has just awakened, and one he may have sensed existed even before her awakening. I'm leaning more towards this last possibility.

 

I'm not sure I'm sold on the idea. Kylo's different treatment towards her could be because she is simply another force user. But if he did know her, I can understand him not recognizing her. He would have been between 10-15 if he encountered her as a baby or toddler before she ended up on Jakku.

In the script when Rey is attached to the interrogation rig there is this bit:

quote (caps and all) from The Force Awakens Final Script


That energy could be that they're cousins, both having Anakin as a grandfather. So they might not have met each other ever before. That's what I'm inclined to believe at the moment.

 

I think he is the one who put her on Jakku. They're cousins and he couldn't bring himself to let her die like the others at the Jedi Academy, so he decided to hide her from Snoke.

Hence his hesitation before responding that he has indeed felt the awakening. He likely blocked Rey's memories by use of the Force, hoping that she'd live out her days on Jakku, oblivious to her tragic past.
Now he's starting to freak out, fearing that Snoke will sense his deception.

 

Having seen it again today his reaction to hearing of "a girl" is definitely significant so I agree in principle with the OP. I am just not sure how its going to play out obviously but I agree that Kylo seems to knows something about a girl on Jakku.

 

One issue with that is Maz. Because of her connection to the force she knows that the people who left Rey on Jakku are never coming back for her. If it was Kylo, should would say something like - The young man who left you on Jakku is hunting you now.

Instead this is the dialogue:

REY What was that? I shouldn't have gone in there.
MAZ That lightsaber was Luke's. And his father's before him and now, it calls to you!

Rey stands, fast. Still overwhelmed, emotional, speechless.

REY I have to get back to Jakku.
MAZ Han told me. (reaches out, hold Rey's hand) Dear child. I see your eyes. You already know the truth. Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back. But... there's someone who still could.
REY Luke.
MAZ The belonging you seek is not behind you. It is ahead. I am no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes. Feel it. The light. It's always been there. It will guide you. The saber. Take it.

Rey suddenly stands.

REY I'm never touching that again. I don't want any part of this.


And to me Kylo seems to be straight forward with Snoke regarding Rey. I get no hint in the movie that Kylo is trying to hide anything from him.

 

The dialogue with Maz is not an issue at all, as far as I'm concerned. It's clear that she knows more than she lets on. She won't spill the beans because she doesn't believe it is yet time for Rey to know, that she's been duly prepared for the truth.
It's the situation with Obi-Wan telling Luke about his father all over again.

Regarding Kylo, there is nothing he can do about it now. Rey is awakening and Snoke has sensed it. The cat is halfway out of the bag and Kylo just has to roll with it.
There is a hint, though: The slight pause that I've already mentioned. That in and of itself isn't enough, no, but there are plenty of other hints in the movie pointing in this direction.

EDIT: There's also Kylo offering to teach Rey the ways of the Force, which is a clear attempt at betrayal. He was ordered to bring her to Snoke and now, he's trying to get her to come with him and train with him as her teacher, presumably far away from Snoke.

 

[whispers]It's because she's his little sister![/whispers]

...runs away

 

I like you

 

I assumed Rey was left on Jakku a while before the Academy massacre. I mean she was 5 when she was dropped off which must have made him roughly 15.

Forgive me if I'm wrong. I'm going to try and find where that piece of information came from.

 

I can think of few cop outs more annoying than "he's referring to the Awakening" about the "it IS you" comment. Seems to me like a hastily thought of solution response to avoid admitting that the novelization let a cat out of a bag.

I'm sure he's right but I REALLY doubt that the Awakening doesn't mean more such as having to do with the Balance of the Force referred to in prophecy or Legacy characters.

 

The most convincing pieces of evidence in this direction for me are the "what girl" line and his subsequent behavior in the movie, and "it is you" from the novel.

I went into TFA assuming that they had some prior history that Kylo was actively aware of, but that part was the only thing that I noticed from my first viewing that reinforced my prior belief. There is so much other evidence away from it, though. I really didn't get the impression that he new she was FS prior to her turning the tables on him. I felt like he was surprised about that, especially in light of how he discussed it with Snoke. I didn't really think Rey was his true prize on Takodana. She was his path to the map. At first, she was his path to the map by being the link to bb8. Then when he sensed that she had seen the map, his whole demeanor changed and that's when he took her, disregarding bb8. Maybe he was curious about her personally before that, but I disagree that that is clear.

It seemed obvious to me before the movie came out, and it still seems obvious to me, that if Rey and Kylo share some kind of history and/or connection, there is more plot to mine there. Something should mirror Luke and Vader's connection in the OT. I'm just still not clear on whether that connection will come partly from their history.

 

thescavenger take a look at this: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/reys-lineage-parentage-name.50036373/page-158#post-53177370

 

I think Pablo Hidalgo confirmed on twitter that the two events were years apart.

 

I'm one of the Force bond truthers, but not in the way the majority of Rey & Ren shippers present it. My argument as follows:

I. We now *know* that the scene where Kylo Ren kills a man in Rey's "vision" comes from the past:
a. Pablo Hidalgo has confirmed that the scene depicts Ren killing the leader of the Knights of Ren (played by actor Mark Stanley) [x] Check his IMDB page for confirmation.
b. We know that Kylo Ren is leader of the knights, as Snoke addresses him as "Master of the Knights of Ren."
c. Logically, it makes sense that Ren became "Master" when he killed the former KoR leader.
d. Therefore the scene took place before the events in TFA.

II. Past vision in real time:
a. Knowing that the vision Rey sees--where Kylo Ren stabs the former former KoR leader--is from the past means we can examine her interaction with Kylo Ren in the vision through a different lens.
b. After stabbing the knight, Kylo Ren sees Rey, starts (presumably in surprise) and steps forward to confront her. Terrified, Rey flinches and stumbles backwards.
c. Conclusion: even though the event is a vision from the past, they *clearly* both see each other in real time. What's going on?

Imo, Ren is ruminating on his past dark deeds to give himself mojo to fight the call of the Light. He and Rey do have a bond, why we don't yet know, and through the Force have limited insight into each other's thoughts. Rey unintentionally and literally falls into his memory. If she can do it to Ren, why can't he do it to her? It makes sense that as a more experienced Force user he's able to glean more information from being in her mind. Presumably he's picked up on her name while poking around.

This also addresses Ren's: "It is you," in the TFA novelization.

TL;DR yes, they've met, but only in each other's minds.

 

Hehe, I'm afraid I must disagree. If he's her brother the way he looks at her during the interrogation scene just got waaaaay more creepy.

 

Excellent post nonesuch (your initial post). One other thing I noticed during the interrogation scene is that when Ren takes off his helmet, Rey's expression for just a moment is one of recognition, and also a bit of confusion. Then she quickly subverts that. But I had the sense she had seen him before.

 

It was 30 years since the events of ROTJ, which increases the likelihood that Kylo and Rey have definitely met at some point in time, before TFA... Maybe he could have even been the one who orchestrated Rey's near-permanent placement in Jakku at that tender age?

Very good theory nonetheless!


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On top of the bridal carry LOL.

 

I agree. And there is a similarity to Vader obeying and betraying the Emperor.

 

Yep! The novelisation hints at it too (the line below comes when Rey watches as Kylo steps off his ship after landing on Takadona - it's a scenario that doesn't happen in the film, but it's still significant in light of its implications):

We don’t know how much ADF knew about the backstory, but that line suggests to me that Kylo is a shadowy figure from Rey’s past associated with both happy and traumatic memories. As a rule, you daydream about happy and positive memories - the things you love and want to do. Your nightmares, meanwhile, reveal the things that frighten you the most - your most primal fears and terrors. So, on some subliminal level, Kylo is a source of both fond recollection and intense fear.

Again, that would make a great deal of sense if he had known her as a child. Little Rey could have looked up to him - he could have played with her, and protected her from the other learners. And then all of that trust and safety could have been taken away when Rey witnessed Ben’s transformation into Kylo, and was abandoned by him on Jakku. Her memories might have been taken from her, but that’s not to say her mental associations and trauma were entirely removed - thus the jolt of memory when she sees him.

 

I never got the feeling that Kylo knew Rey by the "What girl"? quote.......to me I got the impression that he was just a guy who is extremely angry at hearing he was betrayed by FN-2187 and it was topped off by the fact that he's getting help from a girl.

When he sees her in the forest, he says "the girl I've heard so much about".......To me, that is referring to the news he is obviously constantly receiving about who has the droid and he's clearly thinking "who the hell is this girl, how is she doing this" etc

He says to Rey "He's carrying a section of the navigational chart. (the droid) We have the rest, recovered from the archives of the Empire but we need the last piece and somehow you have convinced the droid to show it to you. You! a scavenger" that to me means he's think you are not even worthy to be here or to even see the map, yet there is something special about you because the droid chose to show classified info to her.

He's shocked clearly that she has the force, the cut scene to Snoke gives the impression he is desperate for guidance from the Supreme Leader, since he is in front of Snoke without his mask, forgetting himself because he's shocked she could see his fears. He tells Snoke she is strong with the force. If he knew her and wanted to protect her in the past, why would he go to bring her to Snoke who will have ZERO compassion for her! He's snapped too when he discovers she is gone.

Kylo lets his guard down when he asks her can he show her the way of the force. The "it is you" is a reference to the awakening.

Rey also is a perfect target to be brought to the dark side, did no one notice she has extreme anger issues? She probably would have killed Kylo in the snow if the ground didn't split apart. It even says the ground brought her back to the light, it splitting I mean because she wanted to kill him.

I ship these two lol, and with good reason. A lot of people think its creepy and it probably is and to be honest I won't care if they are related, but I don't think they are related. Just the way the novel is writen, its beyond creepy if they are related.

 

There's no between-the-lines interpretation for this Pablo tweet. If you read the question to which he was responding, then he has to say "Rey's name" in the answer. Reference below:

https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/686634307583016960

 

I don't know about shipping them. I think Rey will be tempted by the dark side and honestly I think it's more interesting if she turns. So far she's the perfect example of the quick and easy path. It would be a chance to really see the turmoil in Kylo Rent as he's discarded by Snoke for a no one who is naturally stronger in the dark side than he is. All he sacrificed, his father, his relationship with his mother, his uncle's dream and it means his legacy, grandchild of Vader grants him nothing. That's untapped potential for an epic story. Imagine Finn having to try to bring her back, and his only help is a reluctant old Jedi master in Luke and discarded dark side user who damn near killed him.