ST How did Snoke seduce Ben Solo?

I am theorizing that perhaps Snoke seduced Kylo Ren by telling him about his grandfather, Darth Vader, just as Sidious seduced Anakin by telling him about Plagueis. Perhaps Snoke told Kylo what Vader could do and Kylo was fascinated. That would explain why Kylo wants to be as powerful as Vader and why he is obsessed with him.

 

based on "Show me again" I'd say "Vader" appeared to him. Snoke as Vader or Vader vision induced by Snoke. But either way, defo FAKE Vader. There's a reason why he talks to Vader's helmet. He saw him, well, whatever/whoever posed as him. So maybe that's what happened. "Vader" told him everything (means: Snoke's version of everything).

 

I would say Snoke probably used what made Anakin turned to convince Ben. How the Old Republic was corrupted and how the New Republic is not any different, and how Vader brought peace and prosperity and similar BS. That, together with what it seems to be a cautious parents, that were afraid of what their son could become, and an uncle that probably did not teach him what he was expecting.

 

I'm quite sure either Han and Leia messed up at a certain point...

 

Was does it always have to be the parents??

I've seen fantastic parents raise children as best as they can - The child hits his/her teens and their friends then become their main influence, and depending who they surround themselves with things can go very pear shaped based on the choices they make!

 

It's very tricky when it comes to parents and children and either side is blamed according to someone's bias. if you sympathize with a prodigal child, you'll blame parents cause it was their responsibility to make it right, being adult, etc. if you root for parents you'll blame the child cause he/she made a choice since everyone has a choice even when it looks like they don't (if someone points the gun to your head you can always choose to die instead of doing whatever they ask you to do). Truth is always somewhere in the middle.

 

Ben's relationship with both his parents is extremely complicated. More than we know. There's no doubt in my mind though that Ben relates more to Leia than he does Han. In part due to what Snoke's impressed on him about classism or blood quanta: those strong in the Force are worth more than those who aren't. We see evidence of this in the way Kylo treats Rey. He's fascinated because he thinks she's worth something, then disappointed to find out she's "just a scavenger." He calls Force negative Han Solo "weak" and "foolish." Elitism, much? I do like to think that Kylo's protection of the Illenium system had more to due with familial bonds than the rubbish Snoke's taught him about Force social strata. He's much too dedicated to the system's protection for it to just be about blood worth. Kylo makes sure to kill Lor San Tekka, the one man who knows where the Resistance is hiding, he tortures Poe, but curiously doesn't extract information on the Resistance's location from him (even though he's the Resistance's top pilot?), and doesn't think to send ships to trail the Resistance back to their base. That was done by Hux. Kylo has 0 interest in leading Snoke to the Resistance, and de facto his mother. Kylo is dead weight to the FO, and it's kind of magnificent to watch them struggle to overcome his willful incompetence.

Speaking of elitism, I suppose Snoke could've lured Ben with the promise of some sort of "royal" placement within the FO/KoR. If the Skywalkers' true relation to Vader comes to light in Bloodlines, I can see Luke and Leia coming under serious scrutiny. Perhaps Leia loses some of her titles? And Luke his prestige? If Ben's around ~23 when this happens, he's already grown up with luxury and esteem. To see all this go to ruin would be devastating. Snoke's already gotten his hooks in him (voices in his head, visions of Vader, etc.), so this is just another venue Snoke's exploiting before the Big Fall. Kylo's "royal" status is in fact reflected in his costume design. There are three horizontal bands across his helmet, which the TFA visual dictionary describes as being indicative of his titular claim.

 

I'm not blaming parents in general, I'm talking ONLY about Leia and Han. Leia herself told she made a mistake when she sent Kylo away.
I'm saying that someone Ben hold dear disappointed him at certain point (Luke who knows?), I just don't see Ben suffering from bullying and going on a killing spree (like nowadays...) impulsed by Snoke.
Overall, I'm just saying that at certain point someone messed up and the relationship between Ben and Snoke grew stronger.

 

I definitely wouldn't say it's the parents' fault, but it does seem like there was a lack of communication between Leia and Han regarding Snoke's designs around Kylo/Ben. Maybe Han was already spending more time away from the household by then, or maybe Leia just felt it was better to share her fears about her son's Dark Side enticement with Luke. Whatever backstory we get, it probably won't condemn the OT trio, but it might shed some light on parenting or familial communication missteps.

 

Lol, that's a great point. Kylo is a not only a dead weight but costs FO a lot, all those trashed consoles that they have to replace. Plus they had to give him a large ship for doing practically nothing. I mean, he's on their payroll for what exactly? Occasionally cutting some old men in half? Like ST can't do that?

I decided to split Kylo-Ben in 2 timelines (Ben Solo Timeline and Kylo Ren Timeline) considering that aspiring Dark Siders like to address their "former" selves as separate entity and completely different personality even though they are one the same but you know cool Darth Talk. Main point of interest is what Ben Solo was like before Kylo Ren took over. So here we go:

Ben Solo Timeline aka What He Who Should Not Be Named Was Like Much To Kylo's Embarrassment

Kylo: "Your son is gone. He was weak and foolish like his father. So I destroyed him."

The Authority On All Things Ben Solo (Authority for short) has spoken and he knows better than anyone else. Lots of cool Darth Rhetoric (gone, weak, foolish, destroyed) aside, what emerges is that Ben Solo was like his father, Han Solo.

Authority isn't the only one who thinks so. Apparently, father agrees:

Han:"Whenever you look at me, you're reminded of him."

So Ben Solo was like Han. And that means quite a pleasant fellow because his folks miss him, don't want to forget him and they want him back:

Han:"We miss you."

Leia:"That's what you think? That I don't want to be reminded of him, that I want to forget him? I want him back!"

You don't miss unpleasant people or demon children or whatever. So Ben Solo was worth of missing and not forgetting and wanting to have him back. because his father is too. And Ben Solo was like his father.

Now, you can say, well, his folks are biased and Authority is biased too. OK, fine, here's unbiased third party, Lor San Tekka:

Lor San Tekka: "Something far worse has happened to you. I know where you came from before you called yourself Kylo Ren...First Order arose from the Dark Side. You did not...You cannot deny the truth that is your family."

This indicates that Ben Solo was not like Kylo Ren because something happened that changed him. he was not like that originally. "You did not [arose from the Dark Side]" and "truth that is your family" means they are good and he was good.

So Ben Solo was like his father and he was good.

Kylo Ren Timeline or New Super Improved And Totally Superior Version of He Who Should Not Be Named That You Wouldn't Know It's Him If You Met Him Boo-Ya

Han: "There is too much Vader in him."

Notice present tense vs Authority's past tense ("was...like his father"). So big change happened and Ben Solo is now Kylo Ren aka no more like his father but too much like Vader (his grandfather). As Lor San Tekka pointed out, "something far worse had happened to you" which means Ben wasn't born "too much Vader" but something happend to him which is why Han and Leia "lost our son. Forever." What happened is Snoke but event that pushed Kylo forward and Ben into the background may be this:

Han: "One boy, apprentice, turned against him [Luke] and destroyed it all."

Boy in question is Ben Solo now Kylo Ren (but, psst, Kylo really doesn't like to be reminded cause Ben is apparently harder to kill than Kylo would like) and the event is Jedi Columbine. I won't stay with this topic because profiling Ben Solo was more important to me.

 

It's obvious that Snoke tried to tempt Kylo Ren probably from infancy into joining him. It simply could've been that Snoke used the Force to manifest himself before Ben as sort of a terrifying imaginary friend. He simply could be telling Ben things that the Emperor tried to use on Luke before the Battle of Endor such as he owns him, it's his destiny to be his servant, there is no escape, resistance is useless etc. This terrifies Ben to feeling like his servitude is inevitable, no matter what others tell him. Some like Han may not understand what their child is seeing because they are Force sensitive and this does not appear to them as it would Luke or Leia. Han may simply get angry and feel as though his young son is making much of this stuff up, repeating the stories he had been told of Darth Vader when Snoke is actually appearing before him in a terrifying manner. Ben resents his father from a young age because of lack of trust.

On the other hand, Leia, does suspect that something is going on because she can feel it through the Force. It's so vague that she doesn't know what is comes from or how to address it. Through this she never tells Han of her suspicions because of not wanting to burden him or Unable to understand this, after a frightening encounter with Snoke's presence, she sends him away without much explanation to his protest. Not knowing why they did this, Ben feels abandoned and lost. Even at the Jedi academy, the attacks by Snoke still continue unabated. Luke can sense it too, but is unable to stop the visions from Snoke as well. Ben fears for a very long time, that Snoke will one day kidnap him and force him into being his servant as Vader would be the Emperor. His parents and uncle are concerned, but are not sure what he means of can do anything about it. He fears certain actions may bring him to his fate.

Eventually this does happen. Ben is probably trained under a different master than Luke himself who is always busy overseeing the rest of the order. Despite his relationship with his uncle at the academy, Ben probably also feels cast aside or abandoned by having him passed on to another master who is not his relative. A still inexperienced Luke trying to run the Jedi order as Yoda or Ben once did, feels this approach is better to follow the old ways of the group before the Clone Wars. He feels emotion is what led Vader to the dark side, and keeping this astray s the best way to continue on. This will be a fatal mistake. Now feeling abandoned by all of the key role models for his life, the ingredients for Ben to turn are set.

Eventually, while on mission with his master, the Knights of Ren ambush this group pair as Ben long feared would happen to him as threatened by Snoke. They are tortured and Ben's master, who he has developed a relationship with is killed in the process. This further adds areas of betrayal to Ben. The Knights of Ren bring him before Snoke and intimidate and torture him until he agrees to finally join the dark side under coercion. This is probably why he has such a call to the light instead of willing giving over as his grandfather did. There is a rescue effort launched by Luke and Ben's parents, but they are unable to find any clue of him. No one knows the circumstances of how they vanished. Some might've even feared Ben killed his master and went rogue. through torture and brainwashing, they convince Ben they are not coming for him and will never find him. Eventually using torture or mind reading abilities with the Force, Snoke locates Luke's secluded Jedi academy and attack it. This comes as a surprise. All that Luke knows when his nephew appears there is that he is suddenly, without much explanation involved with this group of dark siders. He is stunned by the situation. Snoke wants it to appear this way. Kylo Ren eventually kills many of the Jedi apprentices in his battle to destroy the academy. He even duels Luke briefly. In his anger, Kylo kidnaps toddler Rey and takes her with him. While alone, Rey is secretly dropped on Jakku under his tutelage and sold there.

As part of the cult which Snoke has created, Ben stays loyal to Snoke simply for the sake of survival and the inevitability of following Vader's footsteps. Because of his pull to the light, Snoke gives his apprentice dark side relics to make sure his pull is eventually eliminated. This will fail.

 

To shake discussion up a bit, what if Ben wasn't trained at all? Not by Luke or any Jedi? I'm curious why a ~28 year old man with such a powerful connection to the Force lacks the sophistication and finesse of Jedi Knight. Or even that of a padawan. Kylo's fighting style primarily consists of wild, powerful swings and unnecessary movement. It doesn't look like the training of anyone associated with the Light. What little instruction Kylo had was poor, perhaps even self-taught. Kylo's saber reflects his fighting style, which is to say, again, unpolished. Like someone with just theoretical instructions on how to build a lightsaber put it together...

We know that not all Force users are Jedi (see: Leia and Maz). What if Ben was born Force positive, but for some reason Leia, Han and Luke decided not to train him as a Jedi? Perhaps they were even pressured not to teach him? I can see Snoke filling this void in Ben's life and promising to teach him the ways of the Force against his family's instructions. That would appeal to both an unruly teen and a boy who feels that he's being denied his birthright.

 

vaderito great analysis.

i think there's been an actual event of some kind that meant he had to reject everything his father/parents stood for. i think he is actually very principled and it would make sense for him to turn his back on everyone after THE EVENT.

 

It could also be the simple usual way of children that parents did not care about enough to find a more fitting father figure

 

DP

 

Idril he's a really interesting case in that regard. Snoke didn't finish his training because? Is he afraid of him? I mean, why would you keep an adult FS without training for so long unless you go "Mirror mirror the wall, who's the most powerful of them all?" and Mirror goes:"Trained Snow White"? I mean, there's a deleted scene with Kylo in the Falcon just sitting in pilot's seat, remembering (without actual flashbacks). So lets assume he can fly cause most FS can. Again, Snoke gave him a shuttle with entourage, is he afraid he'd fly away if he got his own Tie like Vader? It seems to me that Snoke keeps him on a tight leash that manifests in a) Kylo's stunned emotional growth, b) withheld training, c) limited freedom of movement (has GPS tracker in his belt).

As for Jedi training, I'd say he didn't finish it because Han says "one boy, the apprentice". I guess Kylo wasn't in higher stage (Jedi Knight, Jedi Master) when Snoke ordered him to kill other students (so that they don't reach Knight/Master status). I don't abide to Framed Kylo theory cause it doesn't make any sense. Why would he take the fall or why would Luke leave Han and Leia in shame if it wasn't Kylo who did it? I know that there was a fake "script spoiler" on reddit about a "twist" where Luke didn't train Kylo (so where did Kylo go then cause he didn't go back home?) while Rey was revealed as the real killer but that's just laughable click-baiting. Rian Johnson says the movie is going to be weird and John says the script is dark. They didn't say it was going to be dumb and ridiculous. So that's for reddit "spoiler".

So he seems to me as only partly trained with lots of raw power that doesn't come from training.

 

Snoke didn't finish Kylo's training because he thought Kylo wasn't yet ready and first had to pass the test of killing his dad before he could learn the deepest darkside lections.

 

Do you all think that Ben was tempted by the dark side before he met Snoke or was Ben's turn instigated by Snoke from the start. My thought was that Ben initially had a curiosity about his grandfather that Snoke then exploited.

 

Kylo may already have had some experience with the dark side. If you are a force user, just one rash action can bring you into contact with the dark side.

 

Snoke obviously must appeared to be a good guy if he was able to get close to the Solo's.

I always pictured Snoke being a shadowy, but known presence, like Palpatine playing Sidious.

 

I think that he might have already been a somewhat troubled kid, but that Snoke did everything possibly to worsen that. And I agree with Darth_Pevra that Snoke most likely was waiting to see if Kylo could bring himself to kill his father, to see if he was ready (or even worthy) of more training.

Snoke: "Even you, Master of the KOR, have never faced such a test."

Kylo: "Then, by the grace of your training, I will not be seduced."

Snoke: "We shall see. We shall see."

Well, he past the test. He did what even Vader couldn't bring himself to do in that regard.

 

Great point.

I think he'll be darker and even more evil in 8, but I want to the impact of killing his dad torment him. Maybe a hallucination, hologram, or dream, something.

 

See, I interpreted Han's speech a little differently. That bit of screenplay was carefully worded yet intentionally cryptic. J.J. & Co. didn't reveal anything that might spoil the surprises we're getting in VIII.
1. There was no Jedi school. That much has been established. We have no leads to what Luke was *really* up to, but whatever it was, it wasn't strictly Jedi related. Apprentice definitely connotes instruction of some kind, but instruction of what? By using the word "apprentice," TFA is drawing a direct relation to the Jedi Academy novelizations, which, of course, leads us back to square one: Luke and a Jedi school. So, we're left with no academy yet contextual clues that point us a Jedi institution. And here's where I deviate from the hegemony of TFA interpretation. I think Ben could've been Luke's apprentice, yet not been strictly trained in the ways of the Jedi. Kylo is strong in the Living Force (while Rey is strong in the Unifying Force--but I'll stray from our conversation if we start talking about their dichotomous relationship in the Force). Luke could've easily trained Ben to hone his Force powers while refusing to equip him with skills for lightsaber combat. Hence, Ben-->Kylo untrained and unpolished. Kylo picks up all his fighting "skills" from Snoke. Kylo finds how-to-build-your-lightsaber manuals in the FO's stolen archives -archives which Kylo mentions in TFA- and clumsily builds a homemade saber.

2. "[...] one boy, an apprentice, destroyed it all." In SW canon the word "destroyed" is typically demonstrative of the Dark. It's synonymous with "fall", "infected" or "decay." Not kill. There was no academy, and Ben (I'm 99.9% sure) did not slaughter anyone.* I talked about this in another thread, but Kylo's moniker "Jedi Killer" must come from a separate event.
*This is an extremely uncomfortable topic to bring up in a SW forum, doubly so since it's so relevant today, but I can guarantee Disney isn't going to incorporate a Jedi Columbine in any way. It's disgusting, it's disrespectful, and it carries far too much cultural significance for it to ever be used in a SW film. In the past Disney has gone to great lengths to change/side step culturally sensitive topics in their films (see: 9/11 and Treasure Planet). People were appalled by the parallels in RotS. VIII isn't about to make the same mistake. I also don't believe the double agent and framed Kylo theories. It cheapens his character arc. We can have "dark" without having grossly insensitive.

3. We know Leia sent Ben "away." It's been the general assumption that she sent him to Luke, which I'm not sure I buy into. "Away" sounded more, 'I kicked a disrespectful young man out of the house,' to me. Alienated, without guidance, Ben would've been an even weaker target for Snoke to prey on.

I think Snoke hooked Ben with the promise of further (combat) training. Plain and simple. And imo Ben's the greatest pilot in the galaxy. He's the son of a combined Skywalker and Solo. He's a natural ace. This is probably why he's so amused to find that he has the "Resistance's top pilot" in custody. It's not so hard to imagine that Ben was once his mother's "top pilot" too.

Ia about the tight leash. But I'm also going to write an addendum to what you've said. Fear fosters resentment and eventual rebellion. It's impossible to maintain a hierarchal authoritarian system built on fear. Snoke probably controls the general population through a form of this rule, but not Kylo Ren. Positive reinforcement on the other hand? Perfect way to keep sheeples in line. Snoke has something Ben likes, something he wants. Training, knowledge about his heritage, is exactly what Ben wants and what Snoke is willing to provide.

 

I mentioned the possibility as well that Kylo had not killed the younglings although Luke did not like him
What if Kylo just appeared there shortly after it happened?
Maybe he turned to Snoke because he lost his last bit the trust in Luke because of such an event that Luke could not prevent?

Maybe the whole massacre is only a vision of the future and did not take place yet?
Maybe because of such a vision Luke did not even start to train anybody?

 

BS

 

Snoke said this to Ben: