ST The Romantic Future of Kylo Ren and Rey

Don't forget Dexter a sociopath who feels no human emotion and ritualistic ally kills people to quench his incurable blood lust. Oh yeah and Wolverine was the most popular X-men and he had a reputation as a stone cold killer, always on the edge of giving in to his animalistic tendencies. Hail he so controversial he's the only X-men who got his own movie and was the lead character in the first 3 team movies. Yeah the general audience doesn't respond to dark leafing men at all.

 

Playing devil's advocate here. One could argue that Kylo was kind to Rey so that in retrospect it would not be awkward that he was torturing his own sister/cousin. Also, the entire interrogation is seen, unlike with Poe, so nobody will imagine any awful thing that did not happen. I agree Leia's scene is disturbing if you really think about it. I've never really thought about it because I'd rather not imagine.

What this theory (that perhaps JJ didn't want people imagining a horrible torture scene between family) doesn't explain is how come people imagine things that didn't happen in the scene that was shown, mainly that he abused her.

 

Awesome post, Valency Jane. Although I do agree that bottom line it was a mechanism for Kylo Ren's characterization, I do think filmmakers really did take care to show how terrible the village massacre moments were for those on the losing side. There are a couple of scenes from that sequence that have stuck with me, including that shot of Lor San Tekka walking desolately, looking around in shock, with flames burning in the background. There was something very poignant about that scene that weirdly reminded me of the scene of a horse thing running around on fire in Avatar, as the blue chick looks on in horror.

There's a creature (sorry, don't know the name) that is captured by two stormtroopers and a light is flashed into its face; you can its eyes are wide in terror. Then there's the fact that although Lor San Tekka is never without dignity when facing Kylo Ren, in that last moment you can see him raise his arms in fear to shield himself when Ren raises the lightsaber to cut him down. I thought that village sequence was horrifying and for me personally it is difficult to watch. I was surprised by how gritty it was. With everything that is going on in the world, of course those moments are reminiscent of what is happening in real life. Yes, that responsibility is on Kylo Ren because he was the leader of that expedition and whatever his underlings did was through his acquiescence or direct order, there's no doubt about that. But at the end of the day I believe this was done to firmly establish him as a villain from the moment the film opens.

I am surprised when people seem to imply (or straight up just say) that the village massacre and the killing of Han Solo are insurmountable barriers to Ren's redemption. Because he did these things Kylo Ren has a lot to answer for, and will have a long, difficult road ahead of him if he decides to turn back, to go back to the light. But to say he cannot be redeemed because of the village massacre? That's not how Star Wars works.

As an aside regarding Lor San Tekka: he is now one of my favorite characters for some reason, lol. Knowing nothing about him I just loved him and his "No matter what they take from me, they can't take away my dignityyyyyy" attitude in the face of evil and certain death. I was reading about him in the anthology forums here, and there is a pretty cool theory going around that he may have been the original architect of the Death Star, who later turned against the Empire and offered his allegiance to the Rebel Alliance. That he took the name Lor (Knowledge) San (Without) Tekka (Technology) and led the life of a traveler, seeker, and explorer. We may learn more about that in Rogue One, if that is the case. I think that would be amazing. n_n

And by the way, if Lor San Tekka had his own redemption arc earlier in the story, it adds another layer to his scenes with Kylo Ren, where even to the very end he's reminding Ren what is essentially 'you belong to the light, go back to your family'.

Anyway, good luck on your globalization paper!

 

Objectively speaking, given his behaviour with Poe, he is relatively gentle with her. However, there were sexual undertones in that scene which would be unacceptable if they were related. They just barely got away with Luke and Leia because the kiss scene was used for comedic purposes(and to make Han jealous) but this would be a WHOLE other level of creepiness. When JJ said he wanted to capture the feel of OT I highly doubt he meant incest.

Yeah, I don't get the abuse thing either

 

rowan_greenleaf
Aw thanks! I only saw it once in theaters, so it will be interesting to see if my reaction is the same to that scene once it comes out on blu-ray; I think I might have been so excited to see a SW movie in theaters and trying to figure out who I was supposed to be paying attention to and what was going on that I probably missed the stuff you mentioned with the villagers; thanks for the thorough description!

And I hadn't even realized that Lor San Tekka's name held any meaning! Oh I would be soooooo onboard with the him building the death star but later joining the rebels; that would be awesome! And like you said it would totally add a lot to his and Kylo's scenes.

Thanks! If I get half of it done today I'll be happy. Oh how I hate writing though.

 

I agree, and that is one of the reasons I don't think they are related.

Still, for everyone that thinks that Rey is a Skywalker and Kylo the really bad guy, they should consider that whatever horrible things they are ascribing to Kylo in the interrogation, are probably not JJ's intentions, given this statement.

 

AhsokaSolo

You mentioned the other day the strong Anti Reylo sentiment, and I think it's a fair objection. I can't find your post in this gigantic thread, but I would like to address it.

I think the question basically is: is it possible that any form of Reylo would be canon, considering the extreme negative reaction some people have to the pairing?
Had the possible romantic pairing between Rey and Kylo been so obvious, why so many people not only did not see it, they hate the idea with extreme passion?

I've answered this before, but I've always thought that the main anti Reylo reasons are :

1. People think they are related.
Many viewers are convinced Rey is a Skywalker, regardless of any hints or proof that show that she isn't. People see what they want to see, and while they hang on to the small hints that Rey is Luke's daughter, they ignore the amount of evidence that she is not related.
For viewers that are sure Rey is Kylo's family, they see the pairing as wrong. That's an easily surmontable obstacle. All is needed is to clear that they are not related (if Reylo is really in the works).

2. People want a Vader 2.0 , or assume that's his trajectory (he can have a redemption, but only in his las 3 minutes on screen, nothing more). Many of these people actually like Kylo as a character very much. Some people don't like Kylo, but again, see him as evil, or even want him to become darker and more evil.
Kylo is complex, and I think he's much closer to PT Anakin than OT Vader. Anakin had a love story. Also, for any pairing to work, Kylo needs to go through some kind of change, or information reveal that shows he's not plain evil. There's also the possibility that he'll have a one sided or tragic thing, and I'm not sure people hate it that much. It would add to the Emo Kylo thing, and I think most people like it.

3. People like and identify with Finn, and don't understand why find another pair for the protagonist, when she has a likeable character possibly already paired with her.
I think that is a real problem. On the other hand, a lot can be done with Finn, and he can have other goals, other trajectory as a character than just Rey's LI. Another possibility is that the two options coexist. Finn and Rey are endgame, and Kylo has a tragic one sided love.

4. People think Rey will want to "fix the bad guy" or get into some kind of love arc that reduces her character.
I think it's actually hard to imagine how Kylo and Rey would ever come together, if ever they do. Some people imagine the worst case scenarios.

Now, I've thought about it, and I don't think those are the real reasons. The main real reason for the anti-Reylo is the idea that it is not in the movie, it's not the filmmakers intention. Seen that way, wanting a Kylo and Rey love story or love arc is a pervasion of the movie, of the characters, of the writer and director's intentions. It's a wrong way to see the movie, to understand it. "Reylo is so wrong" is not necessarily a moral judgement on a possible relationship between characters, but on the viewer, who is allegedly distorting the movie.

I think the idea that Reylo is not there, that the undertones are not there is tied to the reasons above. If Rey and Kylo are cousins, there can't be any undertones there, if Kylo is Vader 2.0, not Anakin, there's no love story for him, if Rey is to be paired up with Finn, there's no love arc between Rey and Kylo.

Reason 4 is different, when people believe Rey and Kylo is a pair that's not meant to happen, people think that Reylo shippers want to include a love plot based on moulds that don't suit star wars. When people say that Reylo is abusive, or any immoral word, that stems from thinking about the characters as static, as having different motivations, and a different trajectory, and to put these two people together (enemies, destined to be always enemies) is immoral.

Some people actually think that having an opinion different than what's on text is somehow "wrong". The other day someone was posting in this thread with all kinds of insults to people who shipped Harry and Hermione, including J. K. Rowling, who actually recognized the possibility of the pair. For some reason, for this person, to believe that Harry and Hermione could be a romantic couple is wrong, because it's not in the text. I actually think they could be a better couple, but I've always seen Rowling's intentions of having different romantic couples. The two things can coexist: recognizing the direction of the characters and wishing or seeing the potential of something different. This point is just to show how non canon pairings get hate simply because people dare to think different.

As to Rey and Kylo, I don't think it's my wish. It's not that I think they'd be a better couple than the other options. I actually think something interesting and potentially romantic is going to happen between them. Many other fans think that as well. That draws some hate from people who can't believe it's possible. They claim Reylo fans are delusional, seeing things, etc.

So, back to the first questions: how could Reylo become canon despite all the hate?

Well, simple, if Reylo becomes canon, 90% of the hate will disappear.
-The accusations that Reylo shippers are delusional, seeing things, projecting things, wanting a different story for Star Wars, won't hold.
-The accusations that Reylo is incest won't hold (hopefully, right?)
-I think even the interpretations that Kylo was an abuser and did yada yada to Rey will go trough some review. Most people who think Kylo committed a heinous crime against Rey really believe that was the intent of the scene.

That still leaves Finn, but if his character has good development, and has a satisfying trajectory for everyone who's identifying with him, I think most people will be happy.

And most of the accusations are happening because, as far as TFA, a romantic pairing between Rey and Kylo is not canon. The basis for something, in my opinion, is there. But the romantic arc is not there yet.

So the solution to Reylo hate is actually to make it canon. Of course, I don't know if it will really happen. They could go just keep the undertones in the entire trilogy, for instance.

I think the Reylo x anti-Reylo will only be solved after the third movie comes out. I think that even if Reylo happens, it would only get so much development in the next movie.

And I don't think anyone is wrong for interpreting things differently. TFA left many things open. Again, we'll only find the answers in a few years...

 

Force22
Just clearing something up, the person who was posting about J.K. Rowling and Harry/Hermione wasn't expressing that the author was wrong in stating that the couple could have been a better trajectory for the story. Rowling could just have easily have stated that Harry and Dobby could have been a better love story trajectory, and she would have been just as correct. They are her books. The poster was simply expressing that regardless of Rowling's regrets or intentions after the completion of the series, the fact remains that Harry and Hermione was never included as a possibility in the text itself, despite numerous people claiming otherwise. The books don't acknowledge it even a little bit, not when they came out, and not now. The ending couldn't have acknowledged it either. Ron and Hermione was the clear trajectory right from the beginning, thus the many interviews calling Harry/Hermione fans "delusional" for reading something the author had never written. Had Rowling written the story differently from the beginning, then yes, Harry and Hermione could have been the main love story. "The Ghost that could have been" is irrelevant.

But this is something that I think "shipping" fails to take into account all the time. There are pairings that are acknowledged by a text as "possible," and then there are pairings that are not acknowledged as "possible." Simply put, there is a fundamental difference between Ren and Rey and Zuko and Katara, yet I see people compare them all the time. They aren't comparable, not even a little bit. Zuko and Katara was, again, never included as a possibility in Avatar: The Last Airbender. People saw what they thought were signs, misinterpreted them, and the whole "Zutara" debacle happened. Harry and Hermione followed the same logic. Ren and Rey on the other hand, we don't yet know. Maybe all these signs Reylo shippers are seeing really were included by the writers on purpose, and maybe they weren't. We can't know until Episode VIII comes out, but I for one have never seen so much support for a pairing come out of a two and a half hour movie. That does kind of put things into perspectives for me.

 

Force22:

Excellent post! I agree with all of it, but wanted to quote this part specifically:

I mean, exactly. This hadn't even occurred to me, but I think you're absolutely right. Some people have trouble even considering what is not made explicit in the material. Sort of "If it's not established now it won't happen and we shouldn't even wonder about it." This holds true not just for Star Wars.

This is really a great way of saying it: some think that wanting something that on the surface seems to be at odds with what is explicitly shown in TFA is "a perversion of the movie/characterizations/intentions of the filmmakers." In a sense they will follow wherever the film goes. My guess is that even the staunchest of Kylo/Rey haters will not walk out of the theater if things start to take a Reylo turn in episode VIII.

For the supporters of Kylo/Rey as a possibility, a lot of us are approaching this in exactly the opposite way: the fact that Reylo is NOT made explicit early on makes it more likely that it will be end game. i.e., FinnRey hints being a red herring to distract from the real pairing later on.

For me it comes down to this: my own wishes aside, nothing that I have seen in TFA leads me to believe that Kylo/Rey is not within the realm of possibility, and there are some key things that DO lead me in the Reylo direction.

-

FrolickingFizzgig, to me you're actually proving @Force22's point with your counter post.

Regardless of shipping preferences, why is it 'not established as a possibility in the books' that Harry and Hermione could be a couple? Just because it wasn't explicitly stated in the text? That's not how possibilities work. IMPOSSIBLE would be if they weren't characters in the same novel to begin with. But they're the same age, presumably heterosexual characters of the same species attending the same school who spend a lot of time together. A reader doesn't need to have it spelled out in the book that they could conceivably develop romantic feelings for each other in order to believe it is a possible outcome. Probable is another matter.

The same could be said for Kylo/Rey. The question we are trying to answer in this thread: "Is it possible?" Not "is it the most likely outcome" i.e., the most probable.

 

Force22 ~ I think your analysis is spot on. Absolutely a huge part of the problem is solved simply by writing it. I do think the one thing you discounted is the gut level revulsion on the part of some (many) of the idea of a relatable, adored girl choosing to be intimate with the man she witnessed murder his father, her father figure. Most people don't see somethin like that and think "I see romance potential here." Definitely part of that is thinking that obviously wouldn't be the intent of the writers to set up a love story that way, and part of it is there is a reason a love story wouldn't be written in that way. On paper and in theory, that's gross.

 

You're right. Rey said nothing to indicate she didn't remember her past or family. And it never occurred to me that Jakku could be her home planet? I believe Hidalgo tweeted Kylo did not drop her off there(but I could be wrong so correct me if so)...possibly because she never left Jakku until she met Finn and BB-8?

 

"Could have" is a really weird term to apply to a finished piece of fiction in my opinion. The fact remains Harry and Hermione didn't develop romantic feelings for each other in the books Rowling wrote. How much sense would the epilogue have made with Harry and Hermione married? No sense. None at all. Zero sense. Yes, a reader does have to have the trajectory spelled out for them. That's how storytelling works, otherwise readers are left feeling misled and tricked. That has been the position behind every argument I've made about The Force Awakens. There are logical trajectories that are acknowledged by writers, and then there is fanfiction. They aren't the same thing.

 

Ok, but that's neither the point you were countering re: Force22's post, nor is it the timeline we are debating here. The question we were debating is: based on the text of the novel, did shippers have anything to go by in pairing Harry and Hermione together? i.e., was the Harry/Hermione pairing possible per the books, or was it impossible?

As events in the books were unfolding and before the events were finalized in the epilogue, Harry and Hermione were a "possible" pairing even if it wasn't explicitly discussed in the novels. Once the story is said and done, they are no longer possible, of course.

And we can't use the epilogue to talk about what pairings made sense or "zero sense" because obviously the ending of the series is a natural continuation of events as they unfolded earlier in the books. If Rowling had chosen to pair Harry and Hermione together earlier, the epilogue would have been completely different.

All of this to say: I'm not even a Harry/Hermione shipper, lol. But I do think we're off topic here and suggest getting back to Kylo/Rey.

On this we can agree. There was no reason to EXPECT Harry and Hermione to end up together after things took a clear Hermione/Ron direction. I would say as early as book 4. By the way, I didn't think your posts were insulting and I didn't think it was you Force22 was talking about? Maybe I missed something.

Sure, clarifying by presenting a counter point. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

REY
That's just Teedo. Wants you for
parts. He has no respect for anyone. Your antenna's bent.
(considers BB-8 for the first time, straightens the antenna)
Where do you come from? (BB-8 BEEPS)
Classified. Really? Me too. Big secret.

The end of this exchange has some seriously interesting implications in my opinion. Yes, it's a joke and is meant to be allude to the mystery behind Rey's origins — the exact topic that fueled the fire of a thousand theories — but Rey is referencing it with humorous intent. She doesn't consider herself to be "special" at all. I think it's quite clear that she knew exactly who she was waiting for. Her "family." She knew who left her on Jakku. She even cried "come back!" in the Forceback. That didn't sound like a little girl who'd had her memory wiped... not to mention memory wiping is just such a random explanation in itself.

 

I definitely wasn't trying to insult anybody. I was merely pointing out that the people who shipped Harry and Hermione back in the day, specifically the people who expected them to become a canonical, endgame couple, were setting themselves up for disappointment. They chose to ignore the trajectory of the story and the developmental directions Ron, Harry, and Hermione were heading in. Personally, I don't care if Harry and Hermione's "personalities would have been better matched." They are characters in a work of fiction, not real people. The fact remains that they were never written to be a couple in the books themselves. Not even a little bit. Could they have been if Rowling had written the books differently from the beginning? Sure, of course. But then so could Harry and Luna or Hermione and Draco.

 

But I wasn't attempting to counter a point? Not at all. I was simply clarifying what that other poster said a few days ago.

 

I have no idea what reylo supporters are experiencing so I don't have a frame of reference for the defensiveness I feel when I post a contrary point of view. There is no intent to sabotage a perspective, which, in this type of forum, is impossible anyway.

Morality is important (Kylo's crimes) because without morality there can be no redemption, only a switch of allegiance.

 

I personally believe those who are ignoring the obvious trajectory of Kylo Ren's character are setting themselves up for disappointment, just as much as those who legitimately expected Harry and Hermione to become canon. Does that have anything to do with the possibility of a love story between Ren and Rey? Not really, no. I've made it more than clear that I'm not a shipper. I'm a lover of stories who decided to apply my knowledge of narrative and character development to future of the Sequel Trilogy. Kylo Ren is going to be redeemed, and he is going to atone for his sins for the rest of his life. That's the trajectory The Force Awakens put him on, and those attempting to say he is "full-Dark" or "unredeemable" are ignoring or diminishing the importance of said trajectory.

I could be wrong. I never have been, not with regards to any long-running narratives I've grown attached to, but this could easily be the first time.

 

I got a very different impression, and it's actually supported by some of the canon sources. The VD, for example, says that Rey:

"fantasises about a family she has never known."

That detail, which is meant to be an omniscient comment on Rey's state of being, strongly indicates that Rey doesn't know who her family members are.

My impression is that Rey grew up knowing someone she cared about had left her on Jakku, but unaware of their identity because her memories had been warped/suppressed. Since she grew up watching parents and children together (there was a deleted scene showing Rey watching wistfully as a family boarded a shuttle, for example), she made the natural association that her own parents had accidentally left her behind, clinging onto that hope as something of a coping mechanism.

My reading of that line is that Rey endlessly pestered Unkar for information on who left her behind/her family, and was always told to shut up and stop bothering him. She resigned herself to ignorance, and can thus realistically describe herself as "classified" and "a big secret".

 

Well I didn't know about that information from the VD, so I couldn't apply it to my thinking. Memory wiping is still a possibility, but I just think it's so convoluted and random.

 

I don't think it's random at all given that Kylo has been clearly shown to have impressive and profound powers over the mind, as demonstrated during the interrogations of Poe and Rey. If he can extract memories and information, it's not unreasonable to make the jump to the idea that he can suppress real memories and create false ones.

 

Ugh, this is my main gripe with TFA. If you don't have the Visual Dictionary and other complimentary materials (which I don't) you are missing out on key clarifications. The film simply is not enough to go by when analyzing the story, especially not when it comes to trying to guess at future directions.

I think you're right that if Rey is "fantasizing about a family she has never known" that opens up the possibility of a mind wipe and a Kylo and Rey pre-existing relationship. I don't like it, though. :/

I agree with the bolded. As for the rest, I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about and am hoping you can clarify. What defensiveness do you mean? If it's countering your points with reasoning that is opposed to yours, that is my understanding of what debate is. Why does that reflect defensiveness?

Personally I think there's no reason to be condescending or rude and I avoid doing that in my posts unless I'm condescended to first. I'm only human and I don't believe in turning the other cheek. I've not had that experience with you here, as you've been polite in your posts, which I appreciate.

 

That theory assumes that Ren — or another equally powerful Force-sensitive — left Rey on Jakku, and there is no evidence to suggest that. Other than a few "weird" lines that could have many different meanings there is nothing to suggest that he knew her before meeting her on Takodana. The massacre at Luke's academy happened years after Rey was abandoned. The two aren't related. Anyway, I think it's clear we just don't have the information we need to answer these questions. This is the kind of debate that needs to be taken to another thread though, probably the Rey's Parentage thread.

 

Sorry guys but the ReyLo thing is disgusting
Kylo is simply a stinker. This is the reason why this wont work on the mainstream viewer
This would be like Biff would have won at the end of Back to the future
No, thanks


Mod Edit: Darth Smurf. Expressing your opinion is fine. Expressing that Reylo is "disgusting" comes awfully close to baiting other posters in a thread such as this. Try to choose the words to express your opinion more carefully in future. This is not a formal warning, just a request. Thank you and please.

 

My point wasn't directed to you, and I didn't mean to offend anyone. I would rather not discuss Harry Potter here. It's just that the hate towards Harry and Hermione got me thinking about the Reylo hate.

Still, what's the problem if people want to think that two fictional characters are soulmates and could have had a relationship together? Or if they think they'd be a better match.
I agree Rowling did not write Harry and Hermione as a romantic couple, and I personally never thought they would be endgame, but that, in my opinion is what makes them even better. I love Rowling, but her handling of romance is... let's say not her strongest suit.

Still, I think people who expected Harry and Hermione to be canonical endgame couple were reading and interpreting things differently. It's offensive to claim that they were ignoring the text or did not know how to read it. They are two characters who love and respect each other, and who consider each other attractive. The possibility is in the text. And I brought up this couple specifically because even the author agreed it could have happened. Hard to dismiss as nonsense.

Right now, in this board, there are people certain that Rey will have something with Finn, people who think any romantic arc will be with Kylo, and people who think Rey is going to be alone (a minority, but still). This is a SW forum where people know a lot about Star Wars, and discuss details. I don't think people here can't watch and understand a movie. Considering then everyone is sufficiently intelligent, knows about Star Wars, and analyzed TFA in detail, and that at least a part of the people are going to be wrong, I would say that the movie is open to different interpretations. In fact, in the case of TFA, I actually think the established couple is Finn Rey and that Reylo is mainly undertones. I actually think FinnRey is misdirection, so that Reylo comes as a twist. Am I right? Who knows! It's very easy to make claims in retrospect. And plus, sometimes directors and writers change their minds, add twists. This is a guessing game mainly. Nobody has the right to insult other people's opinions or to belittle them.