ST The Romantic Future of Kylo Ren and Rey

vaderito - great post about high romance vs romance that just blends in. I actually like both depending on the setting. I really liked the way JJ's Star Trek reboot handled the romance between Spock and Uhura. It wasn't grand or dramatic, it was just there, in the background, and it worked just fine. Star Wars however to me is very much a natural playground for high romance - it's not called space opera for nothing.

BTW that romance in Star Trek was also a prime example of JJ misleading the audience, because everything about Kirk and Uhura's interactions early on made you think you were watching a story where a girl meets a boy, doesn't like the boy initially, then inevitably falls for him in the end. But nope - she was only giving Kirk a cold shoulder because - surpriiiiise - she already had a boyfriend no one would have guessed.

Re: the possibility that Luke could have a daughter he knew nothing about, I did consider that myself, as it seemed a perfect way to have Luke's child in the story without him looking like the galaxy's worst father. So yeah it's possible I guess. Still leaves a mystery of why Rey's mother would leave her daughter to lead a lonely miserable existence on Jakku, instead of, I don't know, staying behind with her to actually raise her daughter? In fact, if Rey's parents were good guys of any kind, why would any "good" character do this to their kid? Which is why the theory about Kylo dropping Rey on Jakku appealed to me so much, because this sort of merciful yet heartless act would be a natural fit for him IMO.

 

I like both types as well. But Star Wars is fantasy, it's fairy tale. A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away is totally fairy tale.

OT romance is totally fairy tale: princess falls in love and marries brave warrior who saved her.
(Ok, two guys saved her, and the question, before ROTJ, was only with whom she would end) Had Leia ended up with Luke, it would be totally fairy tale: simple peasant goes on an adventure, saves a princess and marries her. Alas, things were a little more complicated in Star Wars, thankfully, but it was still in the fairy tale mould.

Edit: actually, Han and Leia also conform to some fairy tale tropes, where a trickster or thief marries a princess, using his street smarts as part of the strategy to get to her and win her heart.

If the new trilogy wants to bring back some of the charm of the OT, I say it has to have fairy tale romance, not action flick romance.

 

i'm finding these spoilers all really abstract. i have to say, i have NEVER waited for a movie this eagerly. i have never been on a board BEFORE a new star wars movie comes out and i'm beginning to think that if this is what it's like, yeah, it's ok.

oh, there will be a chase scene! i mean, really? sure there will be a chase scene. there will be night and day scenes and some fight scenes!

and there will be dialogue scenes! it's all so exciting!

it's a movie, it will be made of scenes! lots and lots of them! and some of them will be cut!

like, later on when they decide that the movie is too long with them.

sorry, this isn't directed at you. i'm still waiting for an actual spoiler

 

I just want to say that even antis doesn't think that anything about Reylo scenes screamed siblings/cousins. They call Reylo incest because they assume that Rey is Luke's daughter (or, now in huge minority, Hanleia's) but not because there was anything familial either in the chemistry or the way scenes were shot. In fact, all those antis that think Kylo was rapey, creepy whatever just confirm that nobody's picking up any familial vibe. And that's very likely because they are NOT related in the movies and therefore are played like that.

I'm going to write a long ramblings on important scenes vs non-important ones. It ties with Why Reylo Don't Make Sense As Relatives.

You see, what we think is important is because of the way those scenes are shot, not because of the actual context or what they add up to. So I'll give you examples:

Single most important thing in TFA happens when Finn gets Phasma to open the Plot Device Thingy that allows Poe's Squadron to blow up Star Killer. The result of Finn's action is:

billions of lives saved
Resistance saved
thousands of enemy manpower and weapons destroyed
Weapon of Doom Star Killer destroyed (trust me, Snoke doesn't have another in reserve although we may get a rehash in IX to mirror ROTJ)

This is the single biggest thing that happens in the movie...and nobody gives a crap. Why? Because the scene wasn't shot with an emphasis that it was important so we should pay attention. It was done matter of fact-ly with an emphasis on humor ("Is there a garbage chute? garbage compactor?") rather than how pivotal Finn and his plan were for saving the Resistance and Illeenium Star System.

Compare that to the scene that is considered THE most important moment in the movie - Rey picks up the Skywalker lightsaber. the result of this action is:

zero lives saved
zero enemy manpower destroyed
one shoddy enemy lightsaber destroyed
Reylo ship breaking records...oh, wait, that's outside of the movie!

Billions of lives saved vs none, enemy crippled from losing most powerful weapon and many other things vs Kylo's sexy scar and yet the latter scene is the iconic one. Why? Because of the way it was shot. It's beautifully staged. Kylo and Rey stand alone in the snowy woods like in a fairytale. When the saber flies past Kylo and into Rey's hand, she is stunned, lit like an angel. Cue Force Theme. She lights the saber. Kylo looks at her with now famous "She's the one!" awe. She looks at him. he looks at her and spins his lightsaber cause why wouldn't he? They know it's sexy so they milk it. Now, notice that all they do feels like a slow motion even though it isn't filmed in slo mo. They deliberately drag the moment of sheer awe so that it soaks in with the audience. That's why instead of attacking right away, Rey and Kylo look at each other transfixed. And look. And look. While Force theme is playing. And snow is falling. It's a beautiful scene. It screams BEAUTY and IMPORTANCE. You can't forget it because they don't want you to forget it. It's deliberately staged to be UNFORGETTABLE.

YOU DO NOT STAGE A SCENE LIKE THIS BETWEEN RELATIVES. NO SIR!

So what do we have here? For the first time ever in SW, we have male and female FS face each other. And they are young and beautiful and complement each other thanks to sexual dimorphism:

http://ohtze.tumblr.com/post/138021265668/this-might-sound-a-little-weird-but-do-you-think

Just side note on sexual dimorphism, spot the future love interest and spot the future brother:



Yeah.

They are not going to waste that on familial relationship. That would be just bad business. When Kylo and Rey look like this:




than we can talk siblings or cousins. But not with the material that was given to us in the movie, from bridal carry to Teacher line and beyond. There's nothing Luke/Leia about the way they interact and being on opposite sides has nothing to do with anything. Their scenes simply aren't played to evoke any sense of familial and not because they are hiding a big twist. heck, the movie is full of in-your-face winks and nudges that Rey may be the daughter of ____ (insert Skywalker or Solo) yet nothing in Rey and Kylo interaction and actors acting can be read as such wink or nudge. Quite the opposite.

Anyway, Rey picking up the saber is followed by another scene that was shot as extremely important. When Rey and Kylo lock their sabers above the precipice and Kylo (unwittingly or not, who knows with him?) prompts Rey to use the Force, same film-making that was applied to the most important scene applies here: they stretch the moment so, again, we have Kylo and Rey looking at each other for longer that it makes sense, light is playing across their faces, their pupils reflect crossed sabers, it's a beautiful, very intimate scene in a movie that already gave us a beautiful intimate scene between these 2 FS (interrogation). Accent on INTIMATE. You don't use intimacy when describing relatives.

 

Looks like rey is jealous may lead her to turn to the dark side

 

vaderito - can't remember whether it was you or someone else who pointed this out, but their interactions aren't wasted. their interactions are always focused on each other and they have a value to themselves, they don't do exposition or silly things like that.

 

That's a possibility, right? He's finally found a way to make FinnRey more compelling an dramatic. Add a love triangle! I guess it would be more interesting indeed. And the main protagonist gets a bisexual partner. It would be interesting.

Now seriously, one important information in this picture is Rey and Finn. They are friends, they really care for each other, and their dynamic is really sweet. They don't need to become romantically involved. If Finn and Rey become a couple, then Rey has no friends!

 

Absolutely. All Reylo scenes count. There are really only 3 proper Reylo scenes (vision is nor proper Reylo) - Reylo meet in the woods aka Bridal Carry one, Interrogation and The Fight, but they leave such a mark and cast such a long shadow that it feels like they share much more screen time than they actually do. Which just shows that you can set up anything - good romance, good redemption - with a few well-chosen scenes. Hobbit trilogy is a prime example that shows that if all scenes are wasted, 3 movies won't help you set up and resolve anything.

Force22 technically, Reylo is the obstacle that Finnrey needs to me more compelling. When Finn left Rey, she ran into Kylo who bridal carried her, that created a triangle that some fans try to deny but really can't. Forest fight is very much about the triangle too, with boys coming to terms that they care for the girl and Kylo being jealous of Finn. It's there.

 

Excellent point and it's so true what you said about the scenes between Rey and Kylo. I know I was really surprised with the content of their interactions when I first saw the movie and I had no expectations for them. I could not understand what was happening or how to describe it, but the word 'intimate' really does it. The connection between them was unlike anything I have ever seen between family members in SW before, it was too intimate and intense to be familial. I also find it very interesting that almost none of the marketing for the movie showed us any interaction between Rey and Kylo.

I still don't know where they'll go with these two. We all know there's still the very real possibility we'll get the predictable Rey is Luke's daughter storyline. If that's the case, I refuse to believe they'll saddle Kylo with some incestual obsession with his cousin. That seems too off and strange for SW.

 

The bridal carrying scene= my ears perked up like a confused puppy.

Before that, I was like "Oh okay, Finn and Rey. Seems logical, although forced. No real effort or conflict, but that's fine. Cute."
BUT THEN Kylo takes such special care to quickly incapacitate her, while simultaneously catching her before she hit the ground. HE DIDN'T MISS A BEAT. He could've let her fall and then carry her, could've carried her another way, stormtroopers, heck, he probably could've dragged her along in the force. BUT NO.

Coming from someone that is vehemently against smut like 50 Shades of Grey, I have to say that it annoys me when people rank this ship as abusive. I think I'd be repulsed if I thought that was the case. And I didn't see the interrogation scene as rapey at all, just extremely captivating.

You can't use jedi-mind tricks as a definition of rape. It's a force thing. It's a Star Wars thing. It's not the same as physical rape. But, people call it that because the English language has deteriorated to such a state that anything uncomfortable is automatically rape! *Gasp*

Anyway, like I said, I went about half the movie thinking ReyFinn was in the bag. Then he freaking catches her AND carries her LIKE THAT. It was the first visual that triggered the prospect of romantic misdirection. From there, I just watched the rest of the movie as it was.

I'll never forget though what I said to my sister as we were both walking out of the theatre. That image stuck with me. "I ship her with Rilo Ken (lmao, still had no idea what his name was) when he carried her like that." and SHE AGREED.

 

You know how you like a girl and you may be afraid to tell her that you like her? Why did Chewbacca tell Rey it was finn's idea to come to the star killer base to safe her? I have had older friends do the same thing to me once upon a time ago when they knew i liked a girl...Also with Han solo giving Finn advice on women..Telling him women always find out the truth. You don't display scenes like this and just glaze over the implications which are loud and clear. They don't need to be romantic but the facts can't just be ignored or labeled mis-direction.

 

Gah I love this! TFA was so, so good a setting up roles/dynamics we're familiar with and then flipping the whole thing over on its head in the most unexpected way. That's part of why the whole Reylo thing is so fascinating to me. It happens so many times throughout the film, and we've already discussed some great examples of that here. Visually this is another great moment of subversion of the known roles: we have a royal/commander and a disenfranchised desert rat. But it is the royal who is crouching in a submissive position, and the scavenger is gazing down upon him. Though she is the prisoner and is physically bound, there's something almost regal about her here.

Visually the scene conveys her power, her strange hold over Ren and his fascination with her, his deference to her and uncharacteristic submission. Looking at this you have a sense he'll do anything she asks, and in fact he does a moment later when he removes his mask for her. I wonder if he would have unbound her if she had asked him to.

As an aside this reminds me of a psalm, I can't remember which but I can paraphrase: "As the eyes of the servants look upon the hand of their master, so our eyes look up to the Lord until he shows us his favor" or something like that. Rey, like, show him your favor pls. XD

And unrelated but I saw the discussion earlier: is it possible that Leia's ring has two stones because she's a twin? That's what I thought when I saw it, meh. I'm not too fussed about the whole ring thing. :/

Anyway, my gran is visiting me and she loves playing dominos so I won't be around much this weekend. Keep those fab posts coming! n_n

 

So Han would be engaged to both Luke and Leia? I would not be surprised if it was something belonging to her mother to be fair....

 

Looks dominatrix

 

That's true, but Luke also had a thing for Leia and he was the one who decided to save her. Han didn't want to, all he thought about was money, so when you sit down and watch ANH, Luke seems like the more likely to get the girl, because he's overly nice and just like Finn, he thought Leia was beautiful when he saw her in the message to Obi-Wan. He gazed at her in wonder and awe. Yes the FinnRey signs are there, can't deny it at all, but who's to say they won't switch the story. Rey doesn't show any of the signs towards Finn as he does with her.
When Kylo Ren removes his mask, she follows him then quickly turns her gaze ahead to hide that she was looking at him. She is clearly more transfixed with Kylo (for his looks) and probably hates that about herself. I imagine she does. I know I would if I felt that a serial killer or real life bady was attractive.
She calls him a monster and a creature, yet when she sees him bleed it's a reminder again that he is in fact human.
For my view of Rey and Finn, she was touched by the gestures of Finn and how he is protective of her, he's very like Luke in that way. Yet I don't think she finds him physically attractive. She could though but I didn't see indications on screen.

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Off topic but finnrey is the name of that ship? I would have thought Frey would be a better suited name. Oh well

It's hard not to doubt yourself when there is such opposition to rey and ren, and when everyone is sure that she's Luke's. But I just say go with your gut instinct that you had before you saw the opposing threads. Someone said that rey and ren do not give any indication that they are related in the way they act towards each other and it's true, there is no hint. The only thing is the lightsaber, but again, as I've said, it's not a skywalker reaching to her through that lightsaber, it's obi wan.

 

rowan_greenleaf

They cannot do this with relatives. They cannot. The whole reversal of gender power roles is impossible with characters who are related. The point of traditional gender power role reversal is SEXUAL. It used to be submissive woman and dominant man. TFA not only gives Kylo a willingly submissive role but also bestows upon him some tropes that are traditionally feminine (emotional, bleeding, needs to be saved) while giving Rey tropes that are traditionally masculine (calm, sword, horse aka space ship, hero cycle ). That simply isn't possible with relatives and I cannot imagine a scenario where they turned gender tropes onto their heads because the characters are related.

 

Agreed!

Also, in Starkiller base, Kylo and Finn duelling is a little like the trope of two men duelling for a lady. Or two males fighting for a female. I don't like to touch upon it much because it's sexist, but it makes sense from the guys' perspectives. And either way, the moment Rey gets up and continues the fight the trope is subverted, so it's no longer sexist.

And I think yes, potentially, some form of Reylo could be the complication to render a FinnRey ending more compelling. But I really think that FinnRey is already the complication (because it complicated things already in the Forest, right?) for Kylo and Rey, or at least the misdirection.

 

Force22 Absolutely. Agreed.

I see on Shipcestuous Tumblr site an interesting comparison between Rey and Sleeping Beauty, also reposted on Ohtze site. I have to disagree with some stuff. Rey is definitely Philip, not Aurora. Kylo is Maleficent. Ben is Aurora. Maleficent was envisioned as a photo negative of Aurora, BTW.

 

Since we make a lot of Buffy comparisons on here, FinnRey (Rinn or is that too reminiscent of Ren?) kinda reminds me of season 1 Buffy and Xander. He's totally into her and desperate for her to notice him in a romantic way. They become good friends, which he's o.k with, but still wants more. Who does heroic Buffy fall for? The dark and mysterious vampire who should be her sworn enemy, that's who!

 

Frey? Then someone make a Frey pie?
I think there's also stormscavenger, which is a variation on stormpilot. The lack of creative name says something about the ship...

I don't think there are hints that they are related. They could be related, of course, but that's not the information that TFA gives. And again, things that people were reading as being Skywalker proof are being debunked. The only thing they haven't touched on is the lightsaber, but that's because it's a long story. Really, why have this promo video with very angry Luke?

 

That reminds me, everyone have a look at this!!

http://ohtze.tumblr.com/post/139684180023/shipcestuous-they-never-want-me-to-meet

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well, that's the thing. Buffy audience and SW audience may cross over but Buffy audience isn't 8-88 and their tastes are rather specific. That's demographics that's into heroine/villain, dark/light lover romance such as Vampire Diaries Delena, True Blood's Suric. Now, SW audience mostly doesn't care about romance
(we who do are minority) and would eat up anything - Finnrey, Reylo, Storm Pilot (many would be surprised how easily that one would go down). But, as mentioned before, when it comes to movies that aren't focused on romance, writers usually go with what's the easiest to stick into action scenes without creating distraction.

 

Well, actually, this scene reminds me of medieval courtly. The knight kneeling to his lady. He is a knight, right?

 

he's a knight and she's a scavenger. That's the reversal. Knights knelt before noble ladies and scavenger isn't a noble lady. yet he knelt before her even though he's of royal blood (he's technically a Prince since his mother is a Princess) and a knight. A Prince and a Scavenger like a Princess and a Scoundrel.