ST The Romantic Future of Kylo Ren and Rey

I honestly don't see the problem with the mechanical arm twist as long as we don't get some silly in-timeline scene of Rey/Luke/Leia/Finn/Chewie/Anybody hacking off his hand. It really is highly symbolic and would link Ren to the Skywalker family like nothing else possibly could. I don't even think a moment of him touching her face with the fake hand would kill any tension at all. It would add even more if you ask me, because he would be touching her, but not really. It would also reference a very painful moment in Kylo Ren's past. Lots of meaning, very Kylo-esque. Masochism, inner-struggle, self-restraint, seduction by the Light.

I love the panda symbolism. I just can't imagine it referencing anything else. No matter what it has something to do with the Dark and the Light connecting harmoniously.

 

Is this Star Wars: The Force Awakens Movie Special online someplace? I didn't really get into any of the pre-premiere (I guess that's a word <g>) hype, so I missed this. Thanks in advance to anyone who knows anything!

 

Aw, thanks, I'm trying my best, even if it does feel like beating my head continually against a brick wall!

 

As sad as that thread makes me, it is a testament of how well written the character of Kylo Ren truly is with causing so many varied emotions in different people. While I see him as a person who has suffered horrible abuse at the hands of a manipulator in it for his own gain (Snoke) and in his own right also a victim, others only see a monster who commits atrocities in a quest for further power.

These two descriptions of the same charachter couldn't be more opposing of each other. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong - it's interesting that so many people see him so differently.

 

The main thing for me is that having a lot of knowledge (or in this case power in the Force) is no guarantee of being able to transmit that knowledge effectively, i.e., being a good teacher. I have seen this in my time as a student: some people who are brilliant and internationally recognized in their field can be horrendous at teaching, and this can become more obvious the more difficult the subject is. I think that brilliance/prodigy can sometimes work against people in that way, because if a difficult subject comes easily to them, they often don't get why "people don't get it" and aren't good at breaking down concepts because they didn't need to do that for themselves in order to learn.

Regarding Luke, he is extremely gifted but his education was not the most extensive or complete, as Matt's Solo Cousin points out. Luke's ability as a teacher is already in question because of the outcome of his training in Kylo Ren's case, and because of his failure to see what was going on with his padawan. If you add to that the potential Force bond between Kylo and Rey, to me Ren would be a superior teacher for Rey.

As for Luke being far more powerful, idk. Kylo is not proficient with the lightsaber, but his command over other aspects of the Force (mind reading, telekinesis) is unprecedented, imo. Also, Kylo is very much unfinished, so we don't know where his ceiling is. I think that Kylo's entanglement with Snoke and his split existence is probably holding him back from fulfilling his true potential. "Together we stand, divided we fall," right? Kylo Ren is divided, fighting himself always and that has to be a drain on him. These things are subject to change, however.

Kylo Ren knows both the light and dark side of the Force, and can provide a more encompassing or global view of it to Rey, helping her achieve a greater degree of understanding of both the Force and herself as a Force sensitive; more so than Luke ever can, imo. Anyway, at the end of the day it's not so much about who knows more, but rather who is better suited to Rey as a teacher.


Anyway, I love all the talk about pandas and yin and yang. We've been talking for a while about the theme of balance (between light and dark, male and female, the crossed lightsabers, etc etc) and this Space Panda theory really fits into that concept perfectly. It feels like a natural direction for the trilogy to head in, especially with the idea of Grey Jedi which a lot of us are hoping to see in Kylo Ren and Rey. I think you guys may be onto something.

 

I agree, @loJovi Kylo Ren/Ben Solo certainly does provoke lively debate, and thank goodness for him!

I certainly wouldn't have got half as much as I did out of TFA (or paid cinema prices to see it twice!) if not for the character of Kylo/Ben, so I heartily thank JJ and Lawrence Kasden for that. They hit the jackpot with Kylo because love him or hate him, you can't ignore him. Bland characters can be the death of any creative work. One-dimensional villains or heroes are just not enough to keep an audience engaged. The best ones, the ones that live long in the memory, are the ones that stir people up and don't let them get too comfortable. I've always had a penchant for anti-heroes and multi-layered villains. It's much better when you can't predict what they'll do or which way they'll go, at least, I've always thought so.

 

Geminiwankenobi

also exciting, we've discussed this before, because there is a reversal in making kylo ren the concealed and dark feminine aspect, when she is the hard and tough and light masculine.

 

Does anyone think Kylo will hold a grudge against Rey though?
Will they be ultimate enemies in the next film.... Or..... Will he still be weak and foolish old Ben lol

Also someone said their names mean king and queen. I just hope this isn't a relative thing :/

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Children are innocent and they don't know what hate means, so they are the best version of humans. If kids wants Kylo's redemption that must be right. They know that forgiving is good thing and they know how to love. <3

 

Diddy Minty

but loving the way the sleeves are only connected across the chest. it's a very a****aka costume choice.

 

As far as their names meaning King and Queen, it depends what language is being used. In French 'reine' does translate to 'queen' and it's pronounced almost exactly like 'Ren'. The French for 'king' is 'roi', but its pronunciation isn't close enough to 'Rey' to make a link.

I'm a big fan of Reylo and all its symbolism, but I don't think the king and queen thing holds any water.

 

What about grudges? Although in my view I doubt Kylo would hold a grudge against Rey. Everyone else yes I would imagine so

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Rey means king in Spanish and Ren means ruler in Welsh.

 

Yep, Ren means ruler.

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The panda speculation has been great but what if it only has to do with this:
"Poe Dameron (played by Oscar Isaac) is named after J.J. Abrams’ former personal assistant, Morgan Dameron and his daughter’s stuffed panda bear named Poe."
I didn't find this on a super reliable site, but I'd heard it before. Anyone can fact check me. What if it is just a stuffed panda bear lol. But JJ is not directing anymore...but he's still writing? Idk possibly important to consider when thinking about the meaning of pandas.

 

rowan_greenleaf

very true.

it depends on how you have been taught as well, I should think. luke's introduction to the force was very loose and intuitive, Anakin's looks like it was very rigid and traditional.

it depends on what luke took from yoda in terms of what 'the essence' of the force is. in the end it's all interpretation.

my head canon is that ben was always gifted with it and didn't really need training. he might need to be refined and learn to be more specific but that's about it. what luke could have give him is meaning. I wonder if luke was able to come up with a kind of curriculum or was merely guided by the student. personally in my own private tur´toring work, it's been amazing to see what you can come up with WITH the student and involve them as much as possible.

 

You know come to think of it, I never thought about the fact that Luke had to really REALLY train hard to use the force. His father being exceptional you'd think he would be more in tune.
I imagine myself when Ben Solo was born, he was exceptional and Han didn't know what to do.
If him and Rey ever have kids they'll be moving stuff while in the womb!



This pic removes the gravestone theory. Thank God! Rey Skywalker theorists used the gravestone as evidence of Rey being a Skywalker.

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That sounds more like source for Poe's name and only that. "Po" is the name of the main character panda from Dreamworks' Kung Fu Panda franchise, so there's your panda connection right there. Other than that I don't really see how a children's stuffed animal owned by the previous director's child would be relevant enough to use as a working title, especially now that we have a different director. Working titles are supposed to say something meaningful without giving away too much. I'm sure the title is a reference to the dual nature of panda coats: the Dark and the Light. It doesn't even come close to spoiling anything because this is Star Wars. The Dark and Light sides of the Force have always been central themes. Now, the very particular symbology pandas happen to bring to the table are inherently new... the "harmony" of Light and Dark.

 

I wanted to answer to that one this evening because I don't have much time now, but I can't help it, I need to answer now because by the time I come back, there'll be like 15 pages down. You guys are really talkative. Love this thread. And the level of discussion is so much higher than on some websites. I will be probably more lurking than participating, but it feels good to "meet" people who also analyze movies in depth and have seen the same things as I have. Most people around me don't care for Star Wars or saw it but are still discussing the possibility that Ren and Rey are twins. I suppose in SW you can freeze a foetus for 9-10 years while the other grows and then you wipe the minds of everyone with the force so they forget that they are related. Ha ha.

I don't see him holding a grudge per se, but I sure hope he gets his sh... together and comes to realize that the "girl" is bad news for him and goes like "I am NOT asking her again to be her teacher". I would not want him to continue to look at her like a puppy dog. Actually after my second viewing I had this movie in my head about him experiencing intense pain during his training - for whatever reason I imagine a dark side training as super painful - and her sensing it through the force bond - yes, that one was in my head too even though I had no name for it - and he would realize she senses it, not like it and force slam the door on her. And next time they meet he'd be cold and she'd be confused. I am not saying cold as him trying to kill her because that would be boring as hell if we had the two trying to kill each other every time they meet. Cold as "you said no, fine." I guess I just want him to regain a bit of dignity And it would also show him growing up to have a better hold of his emotions.

I guess you can tell I am a pro Ben Solo. If they turn him into a Darth Vader 2.0 with no redemption, I am out, they will never see me and my money again. Because that's NOT what they gave us in Force Awakens even tough it was what I fully expected going in the film. And Han and Leia's son is not going down the drain. Nope.

What I would love to see is Ren and Rey having to work together and snapping at each other like Leia and Han were doing. They already have names for each other: he's her monster, she's his scavenger girl. They could continue with Dark Side boy, Vader wannabee, Jedi pilot, Skywalker wannabe. And we get a little bit of our beloved Han back. When I think Ben Solo I always think about that GQ cover of Adam Driver where he looks like Han Solo/Harrison Ford. And he's got this big smile. Could we get that at least end of episode IX, please... By the way I did not know Adam Driver before TFA and I am totally in awe now. What a performance. I have a character crush on Kylo Ren and I think in the process, a little bit on AD too now. Oops.

Gotta go. Will do some more lurking tonight.

 

Sangha Ren

hello!

I feel very strongly that if he doesn't get redeemed, they will lose most people's money. there is something very very unresolved about the character and I feel that we need a kind of closure, just like the character does. I also feel that when people advocate for the character, their investment is very genuine and that it would break everyone's heart.

I don't like arguing for a redemption on the basis of my own emotional need, but it is there and it is real.

Little_Boots

dunno how *hard* it is... I studied teaching and we never learned about anything like the master/apprentice relationship. that is something I only know from karate kid and star wars. there is a real world equivalent with zen Buddhism and such or say martial arts, but it's not as *complete* as 'the ways of the force'. in a way I think luke gets the gist and has to make up the rest.

that is fine, he is a good kid and intuitive.

but I wonder if it made him particularly comfortable teaching someone whose innate ability was so strong.

 

Excellent read!!!

I would also like Kylo to regain his dignity myself, him being a puppy isn't very appealing. I'm reminded of the scenes in Girls when he's yelling at Hannah, or whatever her name is....

I want to see him yell at Rey like that!!
Maybe when he eventually trains her! (if he does at all) it would be super cool and intense to see him push her hard.

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Exactly this. Those who want or expect other outcomes have no emotional investment in the character whatsoever. They freely admit this. That isn't a negative or a positive, it just is what it is. People have different interpretations, and there's nothing wrong with that. We're all free to feel attached to whatever we want to in fiction... but to take it a little further, who should be more qualified to make judgment? The majority who cared heavily for the character and are intrigued by his development and characterization and are waiting eagerly to see where it goes, or the minority who just perceived him as a classic villain to be used by the writers for villainous purposes and who don't particularly care about his development as a whole? Perhaps "qualified" is the wrong word, I don't know. I can't think of anything better right now but I'm about to leave for class so I don't really have time to give it much thought.

 

Count me in as someone who will never watch any of the ST ever again if they destroy Kylo's character by turning him into a cold, one-dimensional villian just so the hero/s can kill him.

 

If Kylo does feel some sort of grudge, my guess is it's going to be wrapped up in and coiled through whatever else it is he's feeling for Rey by the end of TFA. Snoke may try to nurture that grudge and play upon Kylo's wounded pride. Now, while I do agree 100% with previous posts about Kylo's awe and admiration for Rey in the Starkiller battle, you gotta admit that his pride took a pretty severe beating. Snoke may very well latch on to that, spin the whole 'your compassion made you weak' yarn. How Kylo responds to that considering that the Light/Dark conflict inside him has only intensified since the killing of Han is yet to be seen.

 

I agree, I suppose I'll be stating the obvious when I say also being a guy and manipulated, Snoke will in my opinion use Rey as something to anger Kylo.
But how long will something like that last for? You can't hate someone who you admire deep down forever, eventually someone is gonna crumble, or when he recognizes the compassion again....! He'll snap and try remove it because it caused his fall in FA.
Much like Rey, some people said she is annoyed at herself feeling compassion when Kylo was bleeding in the snow.
Kylo could recognize his compassion next and it could fuel rage but who knows, certainly is interesting.

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