ST The Romantic Future of Kylo Ren and Rey

Matt's Solo Cousin ..... I really like what you have said! The beauty of this particular thread is the diversity of viewpoints and everybody's contribution is important, no matter what their experience or expertise.

Penny Crayon....love the gifs! Please don't let anything hold you back from expressing your POV....your idea might be something nobody thought of and we might lose some really good viewpoints if people were worried about expressing their ideas.

 

Kylo is not a virgin, IMO....but I guess that´s a matter of how you perceive the character...I see him more as a man than a boy physically, at least

 

Hey please don't feel like you don't have strong posts without film knowledge and narrative knowledge. Everyone's posts are valuable in this thread, it's great to have such a mix of people's opinions. It's not good when the only posts you see are huge in depth analysis because sometimes we do see stuff that may not be there and we get lost in all the analysing. It's essential that we also have the general movie goer PoV because sometimes a simple view of the film is the most accurate because that is what they do, subtext may be there but the most important thing is what's going on on the surface. Your nemo gif is very accurate! Lol

 

The new summary of Bloodline is out and it's quite interesting:

From the New York Times bestselling author of Star Wars: Lost Stars comes a thrilling novel set in the years before the events of Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

WITNESS THE BIRTH OF THE RESISTANCE

When the Rebellion defeated the Empire in the skies above Endor, Leia Organa believed it was the beginning to a lasting peace. But after decades of vicious infighting and partisan gridlock in the New Republic Senate, that hope seems like a distant memory.

Now a respected senator, Leia must grapple with the dangers that threaten to cripple the fledgling democracy—from both within and without. Underworld kingpins, treacherous politicians, and Imperial loyalists are sowing chaos in the galaxy. Desperate to take action, senators are calling for the election of a First Senator. It is their hope that this influential post will bring strong leadership to a divided galaxy.

As the daughter of Darth Vader, Leia faces with distrust the prospect of any one person holding such a powerful position—even when supporters suggest Leia herself for the job. But a new enemy may make this path Leia’s only option. For at the edges of the galaxy, a mysterious threat is growing. . . .

http://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/7878/bloodline-star-wars-by-claudia-gray/

 

Reynak, great post!

I would be ready to believe that the writers/directors of Force Awakens would make intentional parallels to a single iconic Disney film, especially if they did, as a number of people here have argued, choose to make this film a version of the Beauty and the Beast tale. BatB (and Belle) were turning points in Disney's history. I can see that the creators would make that active choice and then follow through by recreating some iconic moments. Kylo is quite Beastly, too, with his tantrums, and Rey represents a big shift in heroine-types, like Belle did.

It's the idea that there could be signs in visual parallels between TFA and multiple Disney movies that I wouldn't believe. Paralleling a single story is a strong choice, but paralleling half a dozen would not be (because the power of the parallel comes in part from it being recognizable, and once you copy too many moments from too many films, you've diluted the message.

I think if Kylo is under a malign influence, it might be more of a "thrall" than a spell.

 

Speaking of hair color, has it ever been explained whether Anakin is Shmi's biological son or she was just an unrelated baby carrier like Midwich Cuckoo moms? In short, is he really this:



Those children are children from Village of the Damned (there's also a remake Children of the Damned). Basic premise, during several hours of a blackout, that has the whole village knocked unconscious, all women of child-bearing age get pregnant at the same time by an alien entity. They all give birth at the same time to children who clearly aren't theirs. So surrogate moms to alien kids. So is Anakin this type of a kid (considering that his hair and eye color are totally different from Shmi's) or he is her son but loaded with midichlorians?

 

Search Your Feelings : I want to see Kylo with his headband... Seriously, the one thing I really want to see on the blu-ray is Adam Driver talking about how he got into character. The guy could barely say anything during press conferences because his character was such a secret. So now, I want to hear it. Hopefully it will not only be 2 minutes. I'd be disappointed. Who knows, it might even change some perception people have of the character.

AnneNeville : a triple yes to powerful gray Kylo. It's Star Wars. I expect big force moments. Especially from legacy boy. Imagine him freezing an entire group of people, that would make some jaws drop. Even better if it is to save someone.


Guys in the US: is the film out in itunes? With bonus material? Just curious. Don't want to hear anything *hands on my ears*

 

@SanghaRen
The SNL did that beautifuly....nice touch that the studio gave him THE costume from the movie....just like they support humanizing Ren?
And I still laugh how Finn Reynalbeads got cancelled....is that a hidden mesagge about ep.8?

 

I have an entire essay about this but I'll try to summarize here because it's relevant. If you want to read the essay (and if you haven't) it can be found by following this link: http://frolickingfizzgig.tumblr.com...in-and-the-modern-fairytale?is_related_post=1

Alright so the Beauty and the Beast is just a hero/villain trope—or perhaps more accurately titled a shared character trajectory—that they writers just happened to use as far as I'm concerned. I won't say it was wholly intentional, but when it comes to coming-of-age fantasies like this writers don't have to follow trope guidelines in order to instinctually make use of them. I believe that may have happened in this situation. We'll never know anyway, but I really believe any scene similarities are wholly coincidental. It would be interesting to learn if that is the case or not. Maybe someday?

The below concerns stories that focus on a hero and their "designated" villain, who is very often also their foil. In order to develop the hero must overcome the villain.

There really are only three hero/designated villain trajectories in children's fantasy: the Maiden and the Mother (i.e. a story with a female main character and female villain who represents a twisted "motherly/feminine" presence). the Son and the Father (i.e. a story with a male main character and male villain who represents a twisted "fatherly/masculine" presence), and the Beauty and the Beast/Light Youth and Dark Youth (i.e. a story with an anti-villain, tragic villain or anti-hero who is a youthful opposite to the main character). In long stories, there will almost always be another villain who is the "puppet master" of the Beast. You won't be able to find a children's story with a hero and designated villain that doesn't follow one of these three because it doesn't exist. There are only three, and there have only ever been three.

Star Wars has used the Son and the Father three times already, and the first two were the focus of the A-Plot of a Trilogy. First we had Luke and Darth Vader, the man who turned out to literally be his father, and whom Luke influenced by the end. Then we had Anakin and Palpatine, the latter of whom became the false father-figure who seduced him to the Dark Side. And now we have Kylo Ren and Snoke. Ren is an interesting case because he happens to be an anti-villain with his own designated villain.

The point is when the writers consciously chose to cast their hero and villain as a young woman and a young man who were total opposites, and when they chose to give the man an infatuation with the woman, they created the Beauty and the Beast trajectory between them. They are not the Maiden and the Mother, and they are not the Son and the Father. They are 100% the third trajectory, no doubt about it. The fact that they also appear to have used Yin and Yan symbology to represent the two sides of the Force further cements this.

Here are some iconic devices you'll find in literally every story following the third trajectory:

The "Curse"
The "Beast" character in Beauty and the Beast trajectory is always a youth who is in some way cursed by his past. There is often no literal curse upon his or her body. The curse is metaphorical in most cases, something that transformed the character from what they once were to what they are. This transformation can of course be physical, but it often isn't. Kylo Ren is clearly cursed by his past (as AnneNeville put it, cursed by a "thrall").

The "Enchantress"
The something or someone who was responsible for the beast's transformation. In modern fairytales the enchantress is often a fleshed-out character with his or her own backstory and motivations. You'll be able to pinpoint the enchantress by looking at the Beast's backstory and finding which character caused his transformation. Obviously Snoke is Ren's enchantress, perhaps coupled with Han, Luke and Leia (we'll find out at some point).

The "Rose"
The "rose" is something that represents the beast's attachment to his or her past. 99% of beasts will have a rose of some kind. It can be a physical object or it can be a mental attachment. Whatever it is it connects the Beast to the curse, and is in some way representative of that curse. Kylo Ren's rose is Vader's helmet and/or the pull to the Light. I would say the helmet is more accurate, but we'll have to wait and see.

The "Beauty"
Will be the character mainly responsible for influencing the beast to break his own spell or who literally breaks the spell for him (in older stories). He or she will almost always be an innocent who was drawn into the story and to the beast, and he or she will "overcome" his or her designated anti-villain, villain or anti-hero through something very specific: compassion.

 

Great post, FrolickingFizzgig.

What about a hero/designated villain dynamic between an older woman and a younger man? You have Maiden/Mother, Father/Son, and Beauty/Beast--but surely there is a fourth? The witch in Hansel and Gretel, for example?

 

The movie would provide inspiration but the plot wouldn't have to be (exactly) the same. In fact, it shouldn't be , cause if it were we wouldn't know about this movie and how it relates to episode Vlll, they would have kept it for themselves. But as an inspiration it works because in the midst of a turmoil of events a man falls madly in love and suffers for it, as what he craves is out of his reach. That is clearly Sergey and he is very much like Kylo in SW. He should be focused on his mission and his FO and Snoke's ties and obligations ( like Segey should be focused on his job and survival for him and the others) but they fall in love and they fall really hard. It's passionate love what Sergey feels but it is also pure and selfless so he lays down his own life so that his beloved can go on with hers. I think Kylo will do something very altruistic for Rey at his own expense, like Sergey but he won't die. The consequences will probably be very serious for him, though.

Also, for Sergey it's his first and only love and it happens when he is about Kylo's age, this will be the same for Kylo, so the emotional impact for them must be overwhelming because they will feel it as strongly as teenagers, which they are not, although emotionally they never had the chance to become adult men. They are like teenagers in the love department.

I don't think they need Boyega to proviede obstacles for what Kylo craves, because there are more than enough due to everything he has done. Everyone will be against him at this point and neither Luke, nor Snoke will want him to seduce Rey but he may try anyway. Either way Rey will know what he feels and this will be a powerful weapon of seduction even if he does not use it intentionally.

The girl in the Russian movie can't love Sergey back because of her husband but Rey has her reasons too and they are even more powerful, so the love triangle is not necessary in SW. Perhaps this is the only reason for Finn&Rey's lighthearted ( romantic?) dynamic in TFA. Kylo and Rey seem the natural pairing but if it has to be interesting for three movies, it must be slow burn. For Rey at leat because Kylo's heart is already like a bonfire.

The spirit of the movie is what attracted them, I guess, their aim is not to reproduce the same plot or something too similar. What is clear is that they don't see Kylo as a villain and the character is incredibly tragic, hopelessly romantic and full of emotion, like Sergey seems to be according to the reviews. I also read that the girl wasn't indifferent to him despite her relationship with her husband, like Rey is not indifferent to Kylo. Again, this proves how important Kylo is as a character. He is the axis, the eye of the storm, in this saga although the hero is Rey.

 

Ah, they're still a version of the Maiden and the Mother/Son and the Father, but there are two protagonists, one male and one female. Technically the witch would be the Maiden and the Mother to Gretel, therefore by extension she is also this to Hansel. It's actually quite simple. That trajectory is specific to stories with two main characters, generally a brother and a sister, and an older figure as their combined designated villain. It isn't really a separate trajectory at all, it's kind of a false trajectory. It still includes the older "parental" figure, therefore it fits into one of the three above categories with a little maneuvering.

 

I see your point about Hansel and Gretel filling the Maiden/Mother trajectory.

So there aren't stories with a older female villain and a young man? That's a pretty huge gap in literature. Someone should get writing.

 

There really aren't any. I don't know why, but it isn't something authors go for when it comes to fairytales and children's writing. You can find small versions of it (Harry to Umbridge, for example), but Umbridge is obviously not Harry's designated villain. I feel as though children's writers instinctually stray away from adolescent heroes and older villains of opposing genders (unless that older villain is hideous or just not human) in order to diffuse something very particular... and that something is sexual chemistry.

 

Yes, FrolickingFizzgig, I've read your post on Tumblr and also reblogged it cause it is great. I agree with what you explain there. The post I wrote for Tumblr focused only on Beauty and the Beast Disney movie, because it is my favourite Disney movie ever and I've seen it many times, so many times that I spotted the mirroring shots in TFA and I wrote that post right after I saw episode VII, before I discovered this great thread, which is fantastic, because this proves that I saw the same theme, Beauty and the Beast dynamic, that you also spotted. It must be true, you and I saw it and many other viewers here and on Tumblr saw it too, so we can't be wrong.

But I focused only on the Disney movie for my post, not on the Beauty & Beast theme in general terms like you did brilliantly in yours. It meant to highlight how TFA borrows themes and imagery from a beloved movie, not to copy anything for the sake of it but to pay homage to it and then create something that feels original and new. That' s what talent is about, I think, it resides in relying on your cultural heritage, cherishing and respecting the stories you were told in your life, especially those you love, and then constuct new ones thus contibuting to our common collective imagery. Nothing is completely new. Every story is both old and new, but it must feel vibrant and fresh if it is supposed to be good.

I do believe those shots are not coincidental but deliberate and I consider this a very clever move from them. It is not reduced to shots but part of an intricate framework and it works wonderfully. I talk about some of this parallelisms in my post. It's a story as old as time, a beloved one for Disney and I truly believe they did this deliberately, which I enjoyed inmensely. I know that a writer can deal with a theme without taking inspiration from one movie in particular but this time they did, I am convinced they did.

 

AnneNeville
I was going to point this out too. There are examples of "fairytales" (or in this case animated children's movies) with a female heroine and a male designated villain, but the resulting trajectory is always ineffective somehow (as in it's always poorly done because it doesn't work). I can think of three examples off the top of my head: Anastasia and Rasputin from Anastasia, Tiana and that Voodoo witchdoctor from The Princess and the Frog and Kagome and Naraku from the anime Inuyasha. The first two trajectories are poorly done in my opinion. They aren't interesting at all. The third included some extrenuating factors that made it work (as in the writer directed the sexual chemistry that would have existed between the young heroine and beautiful male villain in a different direction. Read more below).

The witchdoctor is one-dimensional and boring (unlike most other Disney villains). He has one good song and that's pretty much it, and he also happens to have more to do with Naveen than he does Tiana. He transforms Naveen into a frog, which starts the whole story. Naveen and the witchdoctor are also on their own Son and the Father trajectory throughout the movie. Tiana is drawn into the adventure because of Naveen, not the witchdoctor.

Rasputin is a little better, but the writers didn't manage to totally diffuse the weird sexual chemistry between the female heroine and male villain, so there's something very queasy about it. I'm sure you'll know what I mean if you've seen Anastasia. The villain's obsession with the heroine includes some undeniable sexual subtext.

In Inuyasha, the hero (Kagome) is the reincarnation of a priestess with whom her designated villain had a romantic/sexual obsession. The villain has no interest in Kagome in this regard, but the trajectory is still the same because of that. The author just cast aside any potential love-triangle by maintaining a distinction between Kagome and her past life. Also, the plot of this story happens to follow the title character's journey more than Kagome's, and he and the villain forge a Son and the Father dynamic.

So even when writers try to use a different trajectory it often isn't very effective, and if it is they found a way to change it in some huge way, or avoid certain implications entirely. The three famous trajectories are iconic because they can be used in so many different ways. Subverting tropes is the whole idea. The best writers polish something old, making it shiny, new and compelling all over again.

 

So, I'm back from a long hike in the woods and there's light and there's dark and then there's trail that is gray. So it dawned on me that Kylo Ben is going to become a Gray Jedi for sure. That's where he's going especially in the light of his scar that splits his face in half like "perfect embodiment of light and dark". Now, I can't post image or gif because they are no legal yet (patience young Padawans, in few weeks, in just few weeks) but this is something that Geminiwankenobi brought up about the shape of the scar. Unlike fanart that depicts it as a straight cut, it really isn't straight but somewhat curves, almost like Yin Yang! It's noticeable when you watch the gif/image side by side with Yin Yang image. The curve is there.

Moreover, because the scar splits his face, it doesn't represent his Darkness but his duality - Dark and Light. Visual Guide calls him "perfect embodiment of Light and Dark" and Leia says in the novelization that "Snoke knew our child had equal potential for good and evil". So duality is Ben's nature, not just one or the other. Snoke just made him believe that he is all Dark, but he was never all Dark and will never be all dark. His scar is a proof of that. And that's where he is going - not to be torn apart by Dark/Light anymore but in balance with both. Gray Jedi. New concept in the movies but not in EU from which LF says will be taking elements.

Another thing. Anakin burned in lava because he was burning with hate. Flames of hate consumed him so, symbolically, real flames consumed him too. Kylo is not like that which is why Snow Fight, that calls back to Mustafar much more than given credit for, ends with his true, dual nature, forever revealed in a scar.

I'm not sold on Rey becoming a Gray Jedi too - LF loves their proper Jedi so someone has to be a proper one or one out of several (assuming Luke will restore Jedi order). But Kylo will be because he's the perfect character for that. he cannot be purely Light and he cannot be purely Dark. He'll be Gray. I honestly think that's where they are going with the character.

 

Yes - and I suppose it's even more uncomfortable when the adolescent hero is female and the older villain is male, when you can get something like Jason Isaacs' Captain Hook...



I suppose older female villains who target boys and young men are of the "enchantress" type? I can only think of the likes of Andersen's Snow Queen, Tam Lin's Queen of the Fairies, and the Witch from Narnia... and I suppose these female villains are usually really the heroine's antagonist, aren't they? Because it's up to Gerda to rescue Kai, up to Janet to rescue Tam Lin, and so on, through their courage and the power of their love. (Interesting if you consider Snoke was meant to be female at some point.)

Come to think of it, folk tales like Tam Lin and children's stories probably have somewhat different "rules" anyway. Sorry, I'm just rambling here

 

love it. <3

 

Yep, that gif includes some serious subtext. That's what happens a lot of the time when you have a female heroine and a male designated villain. Pirates of the Caribbean is another example (if you consider the fact that Elizabeth is certainly the main character).

You'll notice that both the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is specifically about siblings. Lucy and Susan have a Maiden and the Mother dynamic with the White Witch, therefore their male siblings by extension share this dynamic. It's the same with the Snow Queen. Also... I might want to point out that Edmund's interactions with the White Witch include some interesting subtext. There is a seduction between them, and that seduction involves eating sweets wrapped in her cloak on a sleigh. So um. Yeah. Take from that what you will.

The Snow Queen has practically identical subtext between the Queen and the boy.

The thing is, these trajectories always include a villain who is not human or is much older than the heroine, therefore the subtext is uncomfortable and can go nowhere. Monster movies are a good example of this. The woman can never love the monster because he isn't human, but the subtext is often still present.

Rey and Kylo aren't like this at all. They're straight-up Beauty and the Beast, no doubt about it.

I haven't read The Queen of Fairies, but this image looks kind of... subtexty. You can't escape it.

 

You make some really great points.Kylo is deffinatly suited to be a Grey Jedi.That I think can be the only way he stops struggling between the Dark and the Light otherwsie his emtional turmoil won't stop.People say that having Kylo redeem himself would be a rehash of Vader's redemption so how do you make it original without looking like a rehash?By introducing the concept of Grey Jedi.
Honestly,I can't see Rey being a proper Jedi like Luke.She has abandonment issues and craves love and family and being a proper Jedi won't allow her to feel these emotions and surpressing them could only impact her character negatively.

 

Oh, yes - it isn't just subtext, as Janet meets Tam Lin in a forest and gets pregnant But then she has to rescue the father of her child from a bunch of fairies who are about to sacrifice him as a tithe to Hell. What a bother.

I agree about Edmund and the White Witch - definitely subtext-y. But aren't Gerda and Kai from The Snow Queen neighbours rather than siblings, and it's implied they fall in love? I think she kisses him at the end. But it's been years since I read it.

 

AnneNeville

Perhaps I failed when I tried to make my idea come across. I only saw deliberate paralellisms with Beuty and the Beast movie, not with other Disney movies, and that was my post was about and I firmly believe the connections are deliberate. As for the other pictures from other Disney movies, they were chosen by other people and I added them here just for fun. I couldn't say if there are any real references to them in TFA because these similarities could be coincidental. In fact, I hadn't noticed them myself either. But this has nothing to do with "Beauty and the Beast" as regards TFA, there the references are everywhere and the shots are just the tip of the iceberg. This even tells us what will happen to Rey and Kylo as a couple and that the spell will be broken and Ben Solo will emerge from the Darkness he has sunk in.

What did Kylo say to Ray in the interrogation room?

"You're my guest."

It sounded strange given the circumstances, but then it isn't because he is the creature in a mask, he is the Beast, shying from the Light, just like the Beast. When he starts to change he abandons the shadows, progressively. He regains humanity step by step. Kylo's clothes and helmet which cover hide him from everyone, including the Light, are metaphor of his will to reject and ignore his real self, his humanity, his identity. Rey is the one to make the miracle possible and Kylo takes off his mask for her for the first time, and this is the first step, the Beast has started to become human again and Ben, the prince at least has a chance to come back. Now it is up to him.

Like Mrs Potts talks to Belle, Maz talks to Rey and she is the one who tells her the belonging she seeks lies ahead. When she runs out she meets Kylo, her Beast and also her prince. Neither Mrs Potts nor Maz are human, and there are other characters in Takodana who are. That's the older "lady" giving advice to our Belle, to Rey.

When Kylo sees Ray in the snowy forest he says:

"It's you."

Why? This is not the first time they meet. She is the girl he's heard so much about according to himself.

Well, that is what Belle says to Beast when she recognises him in the young man he's turned into.

"It's you."

There is prophecy in the Disney movie. It says there will come a girl who will break the spell on the Beast when he learns to love and how to deserve her love in return. Maz is like Mrs Potts, she knows about a "prophecy", has Force visions of the future or whatever it is, but she knows the belonging Ray seeks is Kylo.

Kylo recognises Rey, she is probsbly in his visions and has been waiting for her for long,like the Beast waits for Ray. Kylo is nearly lost to Darkness when Rey comes but unmasks for her recognising the girl in his visions. She is supposed to break the spell but he will have to struggle to recover his humanity, just like the Beast.

 

Yes, they are neighbours. Apologies, I haven't read it in years either (not since I was a kid). But you can't escape the subtext either way:





It's creepy because it's like a weird combination of parental and romantic subtext LOL

 

That's a great point about Rey. Luke failed with Ben because Ben was damaged goods already when he took Luke's training. Snoke already damaged the boy. But Rey isn't pure either because Snow Fight tainted her. Novelization is more explicit about hearing the Dark voice (presumably Snoke's) urging her to kill. But even without it, it's obvious that she crossed over to DS at least for a moment, and the movie kept her intention ambiguous cause ground split before she could make a visible decision to either spare or kill Kylo. So she's tainted too, though not nearly to the extent Ben Solo was. He was downright damaged.

But either way, Rey and Kylo have plot compatibility which means that a) they train separately so that they could face each other again or face someone together and b) both will interact with people (Luke, Snoke) who will talk to them about the other. Luke will tell Rey about Ben and Snoke will talk about Rey. So that keep the bond between them unbroken even when they aren't physically together.