ST The Romantic Future of Kylo Ren and Rey

Let's talk Gray Jedi's:
I found interesting link explaining more on the gray jedi code here a taste of it:

"There must be both dark and light. I will do what I must to keep the balance, as the balance is what holds all life. There is no good without evil, but evil must not be allowed to flourish. There is passion, yet peace; serenity, yet emotion; chaos, yet order. I am a wielder of the flame; a champion of balance. I am a guardian of life. I am a Gray Jedi."

The more and more I really think Kylo/Ben will be the first Gray Jedi on SW movies. And reading this interesting post I realized that Gray Jedi Code was the original one, when "Force" appeared for the first time in a planet named Thyton. That's really very interestting as in TFA Luke is looking for the first originary Jedi Temple...

here the link: http://swfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi_Code

 

Wasn't Qui-Gon a gray jedi? I know the idea isn't explored too much in the phantom menace, but there is a canonical presence. And with the poem at the beginning of the TFA novelization, it seems like either Rey, Ben or both will end up taking that path.

 

Great post! I don't go into audience perceptions very much because they're always extremely subjective and based around countless factors, but I believe you're quite right. People definitely have a desire to infantilize female protagonists. I think it's easy in this particular case because Rey is very much meant to come across as a metaphorical child, but she shares that metaphor with Ren just a much as she does Finn. They are three-of-a-kind, kindred souls who are going to give each other what was taken from them in childhood. That is the story our writers have begun, and it's truly endearing and compelling. Why would anybody want anything else?

Star Wars represents great storytelling in its purest form (even if the Prequels weren't as great as they could have been. The ideas were there, but the production failed). The Hero's Journey, Ring composition, the Father and the Son, forbidden lovers, a scoundrel and a princess. Lucas and co. portrayed no desire to discount thousand-year-old tropes in favour of shock-value. Stories should be beautiful, they should be satisfying, come full-circle and leave you with a sense of accomplishment, and that's exactly how I felt watching The Force Awakens for the first time. People can say what they want about this movie, but at the end of the day it was fantastic (and it received the high reviews to prove it). It was honest-to-god a phenomenal introduction. I was blown away. It truly felt like the beginning of a magical story, one that I'll remember forever. I could see that the writers had big plans for the sequels, that they really had a clear idea of where they planned to go with the characters they introduced, that they had conceived this thing from conclusion to beginning and made use of classic tropes, subverting them for a modern audience.

It's not even funny how obvious the trajectories in this story really are, because Star Wars isn't that complex. Rey, Finn and Ren's futures all lie in their origins in some way. Rey's story is slated to surround the secrets of her past and Kylo Ren, Finn's is slated to surround the First Order and Ren's is slated to surround his redemption and Rey.

 

I'm pretty sure Ahch-To is supposed to be Tython, by the way. Google Tython Ridge for rocky landscapes and ruins...

 

It doesn't even make sense that it would be curved (does it?) since the saber is a straight blade. So clearly the curve is intended to convey something.

 

Saving Private Ryan? That movie is about saving a guy because he is the only son a family has left. It's about saving a young man at all costs for the sake of his poor mother, who has already lost too much. Does this sound familiar?

Also, Kylo's name is Ben, after Ben (Obi Wan) Kenobi, we think. But it also has a meaning and it means "SON"

Maybe they never thought about the meaning of this name, but it goes really well for this man, who is the SON, the living breathing heritage of the OT heroes and also the PT main characters' grandson. TFA seemed a rehash of ANH but it wasn't, that was a way of going back to move forwards later, as JJ said. What was different from ANH? The fight of the Resistance against the Empire's successors, destroying SK instead of DS?

No, the loss of the prodigal son, the son of Leia's sorrow. And this is going to be about a fight for Kylo's soul, for his redemption. This will be about helping him come back home and find redemption. His home many not be with Leia any more, perhaps his belonging lies ahead, like Rey's, and by her side. I think this has to move forward, neither Siths nor Jedis had the solution, Rey and Ren will have to find theirs and Grey Jedi is probably the answer. This is what A-plot is going to be about, as we have said here so many times.

 

You live in Dublin? Omg fellow dubliner, we should hang out and discuss Reylo together if your up for it

 

This may have already been done, but I mashed up the key parallel moments from Tchaikovsky's Fantasy Overture (from Romeo & Juliet) and The Abduction. Even with my non-existent audio editing skills dragging things down, I must say I find the match between the pieces very striking indeed:

http://starwarsnonsense.tumblr.com/post/141326803799/to-illustrate-an-earlier-point-i-present-a

 

I agree with this, particularly the bolded. Rey has an enormous amount of emotional baggage. Yes, Luke had Vader as his dad, but he didn't find this out until his twenties. And yes, he had lost his parents, but he didn't feel their loss in any kind of real time way. His childhood would be akin to someone who lost their parents in infancy, but then was adopted by some very good people and well loved. It's tragic and not "perfect", but it can make for a happy childhood overall. Hence Luke had a great reserve of light ingrained in him in his childhood to give him strength. Ben's childhood light was undermined by Snoke, his parents' busy lives, and his actual inborn force composition that made him lean half dark. We don't know Rey's force composition at this time, but her inherent light had to be undercut to some degree by her nightmare of a childhood. As a result, I don't see her being a "Light Jedi" in the Obi-Wan and Luke mold. They might try to shoehorn her into it for some "Light Jedi are completely wonderful" reason, but it won't be well-supported by the history they have made for her.

With regards to the whole Grey Jedi thing, I wonder if Luke will reach a conclusion that Jedi should not be molded in this carbon copy image of the "textbook Jedi", but rather they should be encouraged to follow their potential and talent trajectories and be mindful and appreciative of emotions they feel, dark and light. In that respect future Jedi could present with all kinds of useful abilities, both light and dark rooted, depending on their background and force composition, and the only limiting factor would be to "remain in balance", which in my mind would mean someone who is not highly dangerous to others or unstable, who is not an emotionless automaton nor a conscienceless monster. I think that could cover a nice range from almost white to charcoal grey.

 

@vaderito

Yes, and villain Kylo Ren gave an example of compassion towards a kid who was stolen from his family and was trained and groomed to become a killing machine, that kid is Finn. Kylo sees him refuse to kill the villagers and lets him get away with it. Why? Empathy? Compassion? Both?

Their stories are similar and they are both ensnared by the Dark, so Kylo has mercy on a fellow 'prisoner'. Later he also shows compassion for Ray and Snoke realises this. In fact his compassion was the recipe for disaster and Han would still be alive if he hadn't let Finn go unpunished. Ironically, this fall into the pits of hell Kylo suffered due to his own weakness, which seems to be compassion, will become the starting point for him, from now on he can only go up, towards the Light.

So, if a villain finds it in his heart to have compassion for other lost kids like himself, what kind of heroes would slay him because they are above compassion in their moral superiority limbo?

I can't believe it, neither Rey nor Finn are like that.

 

panki: "I feel Rey watches all the ships that land on Jakku, especially ones where there is a woman with a young child, girl or boy.

They might be reminding her of how she was left behind with Unkar Plutt. This particular interaction might be very similar to the one when she was left behind.

I feel she was wondering about the conversation between the young girl and her companions because of which she was allowed back on the ship, whereas Rey was abandoned under a similar set of circumstances i.e. in her mind, what that girl did right that Rey did wrong."

Reynak: "The only solution for both is middle ground becoming grey jedis. She would be unhappy as a jedi because what defines her is that she longs for a a family. She can't dedicate her life to the order of jedis and renounce her need to belong and have her own family. With Kylo it is the same because he felt estranged from his family because he felt neglected and abandoned, which Snoke too advantage of. It's obvious that he craves a companion and belonging too but he lost his bond with his parents and uncle a long time ago. He can't be a Sith or part of the FO and she can't become the type of jedi Luke and Obi Wan were. The only chance for them is to be together and let their desire for a partner and family come true, finding balance and solace this way, finding peace of mind."

Excellent character insights here from both of you.

 

The Grey Jedi thing just makes sense to me, given the events of the previous trilogies and what we now see with Kylo and Rey. It's not like there can never be any other kind of Jedi or even the Sith making a comeback. It's like with religion. There are all kinds of splinter groups and that could be the case with the Jedi, setting the scene for future conflicts. We already know that Disney/LF intend to keep making these movies beyond Episode IX. Grey Jedi could offer some kind of resolution in this trilogy, but it doesn't prevent purist Jedi or Sith turning up in future movies to throw it all into turmoil again.

I'm also wondering about the potential powers of both Kylo and Rey. Based on what they've already demonstrated, chanelling both sides of the force (with good Jedi guiding principles) would surely make them a true force to be reckoned with. Yoda told Luke that the dark side wasn't stronger than the light, it was just easier and more seductive. But the Jedi were also hampered at times by their code and denial of emotions and attachments. It is obvious that the true balance lies somewhere in between.

 

THIS! All this!! But especially the bolded!!!

 

This is something that's been bugging me all afternoon. We don't know what Luke's New Jedi Order was supposed to be like - traditional (your feelings betray you, bury them deep) Jedi teaching or what you propose. Because if it was traditional than Ben Solo's fate was decided to be this:



No falling in love. No emotional attachment.

And Leia's line "Luke is a Jedi, you are his father" sound like Luke is a traditional Jedi, as in "Luke's not a father and therefore doesn't have the touch."

 

vaderito It is my opinion that Luke followed the traditional Jedi code as passed on to him by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda. Those two really should have taken a broader view after the events of the PT. Yoda did seem to acknowledge that there had been failings on the part of the Jedi and himself when he said "Failed have I, into exile I must go." Maybe they thought it was all o.k again after Luke succeeded in bringing Anakin back to the light. It was naive of them, though, after everything that had happened in the past and given what happened to Ben.

Luke may well be open to other options now. I don't believe he just threw in the towel and took off to live a hermit's life, either. He must have thought there was something in the First Jedi Temple that could help. It makes me wonder if Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin's force ghosts are still popping up to keep him company, or do they fade away over time?

 

I swear, this has to be one of the strangest divisions in opinion I've ever seen. I know I'm looking at this objectively. I know I'm seeing the characters as they are. I know I'm deconstructing the narrative in its real context, genre and target-audience. I know I'm interpreting properly because the evidence to support my interpretation actually exists in the movie and its accompanying script... and yet there is an opposing faction that appears to be dedicated to telling me that I'm "wrong" for x, y and z, even though their interpretations are fundamentally wrong. They've convinced themselves that they can't feel compassion for a character who does bad things because it goes against some kind of moral compass, but compassion is one of the most moral areas of the human condition. Without compassion, what do we really have? What are we? Their logic is just illogical on a human level, a narrative level, a character level, all of it. The attempt to censor feelings is just laughable.

Murdering Ren out of revenge would be fundamentally out-of-character for both Rey and Finn. They would never do this, not ever. These individuals are letting their own desire for revenge influence their predictions, and it's causing them to actually misinterpret the realistic futures of the characters they claim to feel a great connection to.

It brings me to the three biggest questions concerning Ren's behaviour that no hater will ever be able to answer:

> Why did Ren let FN-2187 go?
> Why did Ren remove his mask for Rey?
> Why did Ren volunteer to show Rey the ways of the Force?

Compassion, that's why. He felt something for both Finn and Rey, two individuals he couldn't help but see himself in. They're all different, but deep down they're the same. I occasionally see people asking why Ren would feel for Rey when he was able to kill his own father, but that's Ren for you. Instinct gets the better of him constantly, and that instinct drove him to let Finn go on Jakku as much as it drove him to see himself in Rey's memories. The Jakku incident is particularly interesting because Ren had just murdered San Tekka in a well-hidden fit of rage after Tekka chastised him about his origins. Just a few minutes later he locked eyes on the traitorous trooper, and he did nothing. He remembered it though. He remembered it enough to find the Trooper's title. Why would he do that? We know he didn't tell anybody. He kept it to himself until it was too late... very strange for a "supposedly" Full Dark villain with whom we aren't meant to empathize at all.

Ren showed no animosity toward Finn until after he killed his own father, further steeping himself in the light of a traitor. He went after Finn. He wanted a fight. He screamed at him, beat his own wound and sadistically punished Finn (the "traitor). But he was really punishing himself. That makes it so much more tragic.

 

Yes! I was think about that too. Didn't Pablo Hidalgo say something about Leia and Han breaking up like six or seven years before TFA, because aren't they still together in Bloodlines?

What if Luke left for his search *before* Ben turned? Kind of like when Obi-Wan left for that mission, Anakin fell. Luke, while imperfect, might have provided a buffer of some kind and then he was gone.

 

"Luke is a Jedi, you are his father"
Again, another hint that Luke probably didn't form any attachments outside of his family (Leia, Han, Ben). If he was married, In a relationship or had children, that would have defined him as well, and Leia would not have referred to him as just "Jedi". She could have said "Luke is his uncle, you're his father", but instead she chose to say 'Jedi', which makes me believe that Luke really did choose to live like a monk, in the traditional Jedi style and that his relationship to Ben may have been more like that of master and student on the surface. But that doesn't mean he never loved Ben, just like Han and Leia who seemed to never have time for their son but loved him regardless. Ben probably felt his uncle's emotional detachment and that would have no doubt contributed to his feelings of 'abandonment'

 

Someone asked specifically if it happened "15" years ago, and he said it was more recent. He didn't say it was super recent or somewhat recent, just that it happened less than fifteen years ago. As for Bloodlines, I have no idea. I'm probably not going to read it because I've decided that I really want to keep my perspective focused on the movie and the movie alone. I'm sure I'll hear the best information about the book from some of the posters here.

 

Pretty much every person who speculates that rey is luke's daughter agrees that it couldn't have been luke that dumped her on jakku. Why are you listing the theory and acting like people would honestly think luke would do something like that?

I'm not sure how "rey skywalker" conflicts with the timeline, characters, a non-convoluted story ( i hope you don't support the kenobi theory), or logic.

 

I don't care who Rey is related to. Her origins are either going to be fundamentally important to the narrative (as in something Dark Side) or they're going to be used as a bookend of sorts in Episode VIII. No matter what they're going to be used to further Rey's character development.

I know she isn't a Skywalker because the theory is debunked in the movie itself, you just have to be willing to believe Maz Kanata's speech to Rey. Writers don't arrange speeches like that from ancient, wise characters who can see truths in peoples' eyes without a bit of an agenda. We were meant to believe her. I've explained this multiple times here (to you specifically I believe). If you don't agree, cool. I have no desire to explain why the theory clashes with the above four things because I won't be able to convince you anyway. Strong opinions are hard to shatter. You'll see when Episode VIII comes out.

Also if you think this is how a cousin looks at his cousin in a children's movie... just lol

 

Hmm, this is probably where relying on stuff Pablo Hidalgo tweets gets us into even more confusion!

He did say that Han and Leia separated when their son became a murderer.

Either Ben Solo killed someone before the Jedi massacre and that's when they split up or maybe Luke had a padawan that he entrusted his other apprentices to, like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan with Anakin, while he went off looking for other force senstives or something.

But it was stated that Luke was forced into exile after the killing of his students. Also, Leia said to Han that she should never have sent Ben away because that's when she lost both her son and husband.

It's all so confusing!

The other thing about what Leia says to Han is that it is only implied that she sent Ben to train with Luke. She said she "wanted" her brother to train him, not that he actually did. It could be nitpicking or it could mean Leia sent Ben to someone else after Luke refused to train him (Snoke?!) and that's yet another reason why Kylo feels betrayed by his family.

ETA - I just remembered that Tatooine Trails game has young Ben Solo training under Luke, so I guess that's canon.

So many possibilities and so few actual answers!

 

I watched that Jakku village scene again and I was wondering why Kylo reacted that way to Finn. I mean, he turns all the way around and gives Finn a good stare, which makes me think Kylo sensed what Finn was feeling before he visibly noticed him not shooting villagers. Up til that point, Kylo was downright ignoring what the stormtroopers were doing around him, he was occupied by his own mission, his own orders. But something about Finn got his attention even from across a fairly wide distance full of chaos and dying people and burning buildings. The horror Finn was feeling at seeing his friend die, innocent people being killed, was somehow loud enough to stop Kylo in his tracks and make him consider him for a moment. I agree that it may have been a combination of empathy and compassion. Kylo may have remembered feeling the same way when he had to make his first kill. Also, he just doesn't seem inclined to kill his own men, even when they bring him terrible news such as the droid escaping. That's another huge difference between Kylo and Vader, the latter of whom would just Force choke whichever unfortunate person had to be the one to give him bad news.

 

Hey does anyone remember seeing this dude in TFA??

Constable Zuvio - a hard-as-nails law officer keeping order on Jakku is the caption with the photo in the magazine.

It's a prominent photo in the copy of Empire (January 2016 issue) I was reading. I know that there were cuts in the film but to release a photo to the media showing a character who might not even be in the final cut is a little strange.

I just can't recall seeing him - was he in any of the Rey/Jakku shots????

What Girl Force choking from a distance at times too!!!

 

Maz told her that "whomever you're waiting for on jakku, they're never coming back.". How does that debunk her being luke's daughter. As I already said, most people who speculate on rey skywalker, agree that luke couldn't have been the one who left her. If you convince yourself that any speculation is true and thats it, then you're probably gonna be pissed/disappointed when you watch the movie. There's a reason kylo ren declared that anakin's lightsaber belonged to him, only for it to fly passed him and land in the hands of rey not even 5 mins later. I'm not totally convinced either way, but i'm not gonna proclaim one as cannon with no doubt or no chance for it to be otherwise. There are plenty of callouts/factors that would give weight to "rey skywalker". I used to be indifferent until about 3 days ago.

As for laying out how rey skywalker clashes with you list. You don't have to convince me, I just want to see the logic behind that list.

Penny Crayon

I believe he was cut from the film. His short story, "high noon on jakku" was a pretty nice and quick read. Cool character.