ST Kylo Ren's Future/Fate. Death/Redemption/Other?

Of course. But why someone becomes who they are is the result of a very complex causality matrix. Leia and Han not being around all the time may simply be one causal factor among thousands. That doesn't mean it's completely insignificant, though. And recognizing that is not the same as excusing Kylo's actions. This is a descriptive exercise.

 

BANNED

 

I understand what you're saying, but I haven't seen anyone lay primary responsibility at Han and Leia's feet. Yes, Han and Leia's actions may have contributed to the conditions that increased the probability that Kylo might be more easily manipulated by a certain evil alien force-sensitive dude. But ultimately, there are so many factors, including one's own personality, that contribute to murderous behavior, that Han and Leia's share of the responsibility in this case may not be that significant, percentage-wise.

 

Sigh. Sometimes I think that some of you guys take all of this far too seriously.

 

Then i'll finally find and use the ignore function.....

I found cersei to be especially compelling after her walk of shame......

 

....unless they weren't around for him to heed...

 

No they wouldn't be. Working parents =/= abandoned child. Are we seriously discussing Han and Leia as not making time for parenting? Huh? So literally people think Han and Leia were deadbeats that ignored their son? To the point that Snoke was his foster parent?

Sure okay, maybe that's how far JJ and LF plan to take this. Or, as indicated by what we actually know, Leia dared to continue fighting for the republic, and Han still partook in some adventuring. Meanwhile, they loved their son and each other and Leia tried to protect Kylo from Snoke (meaning she didn't leave Kylo to be fostered by him).

Children might decide all kinds of things based on being abused or abandoned. Other than that, no, when it comes to mass murder, whether the kid has stay at home parents or not is 100% irrelevant. Part of what I do for a living involves jury analysis. You know what would never, ever sell to a jury? The mass murderer's parents are partly to blame for working and/or having hobbies while the mass murderer was growing up. Thats life. Deal with it and don't mass murder.

The jury is still out for me as to whether LF actually, literally plans to portray Leia and Han as deadbeats. If they do, they do, but I'll be very, very disappointed, to say the least.

 

First of all, this is not a court proceeding.

Secondly, this does not have to be a "Always parenting/never parenting" scenario. Well-meaning parents can still not be the greatest parents. Han and Leia both have some guilt about their parenting (as most parents do), and Ben alludes to his disappointment in how fatherly Han was. No character in the Saga has ever been portrayed as being perfect.

 

Why do Han/Leia have to be deadbeats in a scenario where Snoke has preyed upon and seduced their Son?
They don't automatically get awarded "worst parents in the galaxy" because more could have been done to prevent Snoke from gaining influence over their son.

 

Whether it's a court proceeding or not, we all draw from what we relate to. Juries are just average people using their common sense to come to a decision. They don't know or need to know legalese. There is nothing inapplicable about common sense.

Whether Han and Leia are good parents or bad parents has zilch to do with whether Leia continued fighting for the republic after becoming a mother, or whether Han continued adventuring after becoming a father. The fact that those two things are used as arguments to call them bad parents partly responsible for Kylo being a mass murderer proves how suspect this whole line of reasoning is.

I like how causing a child to be a mass murderer is simply demonstrative of a character being not perfect. Reminds me of how Kylo being a mass murderer has been argued as him simply being not perfect.

 

AhsokaSolo

I think you're missing the point. Han and Leia's parenting has nothing to do with their son becoming a murderer. No one around here is stating that. However, it somehow left an opening for Snoke who indeed made Kylo a murderer. It's not like he went on a rampage because mom and and dad were doing their stuff. There is a huge difference here that is not emphasised enough.

 

Hater's POV

vs. Lucasfilm's canonical information

Everything we learnt from Secrets of Star Wars: The Force Awakens, the new documentary goes behind the scenes of Star Wars: The Force Awakens

The young Solo-Skywalker descendent was essentially groomed for evil by villain Supreme Leader Snoke, who recognised from an early stage that Kylo, grandson of Vader, would be unusually gifted in the force.

Han and Leia’s marital problems may have helped make Kylo an easier target – confirming that the couple split long before Kylo turned to the dark side, rather than as a consequence of this.

Essentially, despite being drawn to each other – and despite being every much in love – Han and Leia were just too different to be compatible.

Caught in the middle of their conflict, their son had no one to turn to, and was left feeling alone, abandoned and misunderstood

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/sta...ing-of-documentary-secrets-cinematic-journey/




"The haters even act like what they insist about the character they hate is canon, not what Lucasfilm's high-ups say."

Why does it feel like a Déjà vu? Now the infamous quote people made long time ago in this thread has became an epically perfect depiction, again.

 

Hater of .. ?


(sorry. I <3 SW. Even that little **** Kylo. Where is this "us and them" poliarity coming from? )

Palpatine would be proud.

Can't we all be a bit more Jar Jar?

 

Sea of Marmara
??? Who hates whom?

 

Oh, it's been emphasized plenty... but people will interpret such posts as they choose, regardless.

 

New footage from the shooting of the fight scene support that Kylo was not trying to kill Finn, just knock him out (but Finn kept getting up):

https://49.media.tumblr.com/6890ae0dfd27a1c895a931e38573b5a3/tumblr_o4v9korOr81qaa3xao1_500.gif
Kylo walks a long ways away from Finn, beating his wounds, with his sword lowered (ie, no longer fighting). He only returns to fighting position when Finn gets up and charges.

https://49.media.tumblr.com/30489b0d330ad11af0037364a734abdd/tumblr_o4v9korOr81qaa3xao2_500.gif
He responds with a sword flourish to knock Finn's saber blade down, then plants a hand on Finn's back and pushes him into a tree (attempt to disable, not kill).

The behind the scene video is interesting to watch.

Kylo may have been filled with rage towards "Traitor-Finn" but he repeatedly chooses not to kill him. Me-thinks that Kylo's level of bloodlust is not nearly as high as has been assumed.

 

Isn't that attempt to disable the moment before he digs his Saber into Finns shoulder?

 

Which is also an attempt to disable, since that's Finn's sword arm.

 

That's literally 2 seconds before he slashes his back. You can come up with all the pretty pretty pictures you want to try to prove your point, but I will never believe it. Kylo walking away was revving himself up in the fight. That's how Jedi fights work. Anakin and Obi-Wan do the same thing in their death battle. Maul does it with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. It's not like anyone on earth ever made the argument that when Maul flips to another area of the room they're in that he's trying to get away from them to stop the fight and Qui-Gon keeps it going. Nope because that's not what happened. He was egging them on until he thought they were in a place where he could beat them. He lost to Obi-Wan, but that's exactly what Kylo is doing. He's toying with Finn, gets tired of it when Finn actually hurts him and nearly kills him.

ETA: Also if he wanted to disarm him why didn't he, oh I don't know, DISARM HIM. Finn drops the saber when he burns his shoulder, right?

 

Well, you want evidence from the movie, I give evidence from the movie and filming rather than offering meta and literary criticism. There's no need to be so condescending.

No, Finn does not drop the saber when Kylo injures his shoulder. Kylo knocks the saber out of Finn's hand after Finn slashes Kylo's shoulder in return. Then Kylo punches Finn, quickly slashes his back (which keeps Finn down), turns off his cross-guard saber and puts it away (without striking a killing blow) and tries to summon the legacy saber.

I don't understand the tone of indignation that Kylo injured Finn in a sword fight. It's a sword fight. One or the other was very likely to get hurt.

 

He's not trying to kill Finn there, he's actually walking over to Rey who you can see on the ground and Finn gets back up and startled ren back into the fight. From the other angle you see him looking at Rey as he tries to get over there( that's the angle used in the film)