Saga Analysis of Yoda's arc

I posted this in the Yoda PT vs Yoda OT thread, but it is broad enough that maybe it would be better as it's own thread.



I’m in both camps on this issue. Yoda is definitely different in each trilogy, I think arguing this is not the case is a little silly. There is arguably more depth and wisdom to most of his imparted wisdom in the OT, but this isn’t necessarily detrimental to a cohesive six-part saga. Like many noted, Yoda seems to have gained a lot of his wisdom from his experience before and during the PT and reflecting on the fall of the Jedi Order and Republic during his exile on Dagobah. Plus, he is hinted at ROTS’s conclusion to be communing with the spirit of the free-thinking Jedi Qui-Gon Jinn in this time alone, and Yoda’s and Obi-Wan’s teachings in the OT appear to fall more in line Qui-Gon’s philosophy as portrayed in Episode One.



Something threaded into the PT is the idea that as the dark side grows in strength the Jedi’s perception and foresight decreases. I think this is reflected in Yoda’s dialogue over the films. Arguably the plot-structure of the PT films means that his dialogue seems a little more insightful and ESB-esque in TPM than during the war-times of AOTC and ROTS.

TPM

MACE: I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing.
YODA: Ah, hard to see the dark side is.


KI-ADI: Your thoughts dwell on your mother...
ANAKIN: I miss her.
YODA: Afraid to lose her... I think?
ANAKIN: What has that got to do with anything?
YODA: Everything! Fear is the path to the dark side! Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering... I sense much fear in you.

I’ve long thought this is a very significant and depressing moment setting up the whole saga essentially.


MACE: There is no doubt that the mysterious warrior encountered was a Sith.
YODA: Always two there are, no more, no less. A Master and an apprentice.
MACE: But which was destroyed... the Master or the apprentice?


In AOTC Yoda seems to lack in his trademark vision a little.

PALPATINE: Master Yoda, do you think it will really come to war?
YODA: The dark side of the force clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is.

There is of course irony in the fact that this “cloud” is largely being created by the person asking the question. Yoda is really quite blind here.


MACE: I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the force is diminished.
YODA: Only the dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

The irony here is in the fact that the Sith Lord and the corrupt Senate are actually one in the same. So the Senate is essentially already working against them.


OBI-WAN: What do you make of Count Dooku’s claim that a Sith is leading the Senate? It doesn’t feel right.
YODA: Joined the dark side Dooku has. Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now.

Further evidence of Yoda’s clouded vision in this era.


OBI-WAN: I have to admit that without the Clones it would not have been a victory.
YODA: Victory? Victory you say? Master Obi-Wan, not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen. Begun the Clone War has.

Irony once again in the fact that while Yoda lamenting the start of the war is spot-on, Yoda is blind to the fact that the shroud hasn’t fallen – he is only referring to the Sith leading the Separatists, but the Sith are also leading the Republic! So the shroud is as strong as ever and arguably only growing. Plus, Obi-Wan’s statement shows that the Jedi Order has become reliant on the Clone Army (a slave army?), an army by which the Jedi Order’s leading into battle really represents a compromise of their own morals. The Order has become dangerously dependant on, and intertwined with, a failing Republic. By fighting the Sith’s false war the Jedi were setting themselves up to lose before they even began fighting.
Star Wars is so broadly painted that it can really be seen as an analogy of our own world at different stages in history. I like how it isn’t too specifically written for this reason alone.



Some discussion of Yoda’s mentoring of Anakin in ROTS...

YODA: Premonitions... premonitions... hmmm? These visions you have...
ANAKIN: They are of pain, suffering... death.
YODA: Yourself you speak of, or someone you know?
ANAKIN: Someone.
YODA: Close to you?
ANAKIN: Yes.
YODA: Careful you must be when sensing the future Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.
ANAKIN: I won’t let these visions come true, Master Yoda.
YODA: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the force. Mourn them do not, miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is.
ANAKIN: What must I do Master Yoda?
YODA: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

It ties into ESB that here Yoda is a little surprised to hear about Anakin’s premonitions and tries to help however he can, yet in ESB he relates to this past experience when confronted with a similar situation with Anakin’s son and has more applicable advice – “If you leave now, help them you could... but you will destroy all for which they have fought and suffered.”

My reading is that where Yoda’s ROTS advice is kind of a textbook Jedi response, he talks far more metaphorically, and regarding the bigger picture, in ESB. Likely because of his experience with Anakin and other Jedi in his past. To add further credence to this theory, Yoda seems to already sense who pledged to Sidious when Obi-Wan wants to check the Jedi Temple security-holo; “If into the security recordings you go, only pain will you find.” and sighs regretfully when Obi-Wan sees it is Anakin.

Lucas also describes part of Anakin’s story in the film as something along the lines of “Anakin looks to the Gods for advice, but when they can’t help he goes to the Devil.” Anakin is essentially looking for someone to tell him exactly what he wants to hear, which he thinks he has found in Palpatine and the dark side. Something that ties into this theme I think is Yoda’s use of “death is a natural part of life.” which tellingly inverts Palpatine’s comment - “The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be unnatural.” Palpatine ultimately offers Anakin the only actual solution to his dilemma in the film, where Yoda really just tells Anakin the truth. Here Anakin is becoming so desperate he is beginning to look like he just might take Palpatine up on his claims.
This is a highly debatable topic, but Imo Anakin should have just left the Order if he wanted to be married. The Jedi way had worked for centuries, and although Yoda admits to himself on defeat by Sidious that the Order had failed to adapt (unlike the ever-changing Sith), I think Anakin just wanted to have it both ways, mostly on account of the type of greed in Anakin that Yoda warned him of.



To me, Yoda in AOTC and ROTS talks less like the humble sage we see him as in ESB and ROTJ, and has a more authoritarian speech style. A sign of the times maybe, leading a Republic aligned Jedi Order with thousands of members who are kind of a Galactic police force in the PT, versus having to lay low and arguably restrict force use for fear of being sensed by the Sith in the OT. He definitely saves some of his best advice specifically for Luke in ESB, whatever the actual reason for this is.
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I have in the past, mostly on these forums, been a little fascinated by some of the opposites between PT and OT dialogue that I don’t think is just coincidental. At the very least, Lucas put a lot of contrast into Anakin’s and Luke’s respective training.

Obi-Wan tells Anakin in AOTC – “This weapon is your life.” While suitable advice for the era and situation, it is actually the opposite of what Yoda advises in ESB – “Your weapons... you will not need them.” I personally don’t hate the idea of Yoda using a saber in Ep3, Sidious pretty much forced his hand with his underhanded conquest of the Galaxy after all (although the Ep2 duel between Dooku and Yoda just came off as unnecessary practice to me personally). Notice the nature of Luke’s encounter with the Vader apparition – he beheads Vader and sees his own face under the mask. This is kind of a running theme in the films accentuated by the method of killing; a beheading. Anakin beheads Tuskens at the beginning of his loss-induced rampage that starts his fall, and beheads Dooku in ROTS. Mace beheads Jango in AOTC, and is killed attempting to behead Palpatine in the next film. Yoda beheads two clones in self-defence during Order 66. The ESB cave apparition scene can really reflect all these past instances as a failure on several characters’ parts, and Luke only truly understands the lesson at the climax of ROTJ when he throws away his weapon and contrastingly spares Vader’s life, inspiring in Anakin the clarity to finally free the galaxy.



More Yoda dialogue mirrors –

AOTC:
OBI-WAN: And you will pay attention to my lead.
ANAKIN: Why?
OBI-WAN: What?!?
ANAKIN: Why else do you think we were assigned if not to catch the killer?

ESB:
LUKE: But tell me why I mustn’t...
YODA: No, there is no “why”!

--------------

AOTC:
ANAKIN: I try, Master.

ESB:
LUKE: Alright, I’ll give it a try...
YODA: No. Do or do not. There is no try.

--------------

LUKE (to Yoda): You want the impossible.

ANAKIN: Anything is possible Padme, listen to me!

--------------

YODA: An old friend who has returned from the netherworld of the force. Your old Master.

YODA: Through the force, things you will see. The past... the future... old friends long gone...”

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On the Jedi in the PT:

In AOTC the Jedi and the Republic arguably initiate the war. It is ultimately the Sith’s doing – the Republic and Jedi feel they are backed into a corner by the growing threat of the Separatists and must act to defend themselves. Both sides are of course being led by the Sith. But the war essentially starts when the Jedi somewhat aggressively invade Geonosis in response to Dooku’s threats. The battle between the new Clone army and Separatist droids that follows is somewhat of an inversion of the ESB Battle of Hoth, in that the Ep2 good-guys replace the position of the Empire in Ep5 – The Republic/Empire invading the “rebel” home base and defeating the “traitors” to the Republic/Empire causing the Separatists/Rebels to flee their planet.
Fittingly, Sio bibble stated during the invasion of Naboo in the previous film “A communications disruption can mean only one thing; invasion!” Then, tellingly, Poggle the Lesser echoes Sio Bibble in AOTC with the information “Our communications have been jammed.” The main point being that, on Geonosis, the Republic and the Jedi have become the invaders – something quite contradictory to Yoda’s later instruction “Never (use the force) for attack.”


It is quite significant that in ROTS it is usually the Jedi and Republic who do the attacking...

- The opening battle above Coruscant (orchestrated by Sidious with his own kidnapping, much like his using his own status as part of the lure to the Rebellion assault on the DSII in ROTJ) is won by the Republic, a key moment of which involves Anakin, as a Jedi-to-be-Sith, ominously killing Dooku in cold-blood. Anakin is congratulated by Palpatine, and later even other Jedi, oblivious to the nature of how Dooku’s end came about.
- Obi-Wan is sent to Utapau to confront and kill (or capture) General Grievous.
- Yoda acts as a General commanding Wookies and clones against Separatist invasion on Kashyyyk. Sending a high-profile Jedi like the Grand Master Yoda is perhaps indicative of the Council’s flawed priorities during the stressful time.
- When Mace learns of Palpatine’s true identity, he and three Masters storm into his office and activate their sabers to attempt an arrest. When Palpatine repeatedly resists arrest, Mace is goaded into trying to kill Palpatine, and Anakin turns to the dark side by intervening.
- Yoda and Obi-Wan return to the Jedi Temple after Order 66 and cut through a fair few Clone troopers.
- Yoda confronts Palpatine at the Senate and ignites his saber aggressively when Palpatine attempts to flee.
- Obi-Wan sneaks aboard Padme’s ship, in an effort to track down and take out Vader. When he sees Anakin is not going to back down he tellingly ignites his saber first to initiate their duel.

You can argue the Jedi’s intentions are actually very noble in most of these instances, but I think to ignore the flaw in some of their actions in the PT is to ignore a big part of the intended tragedy. Basically everyone in the PT is a part-contributor to the Republic’s fall, just most directly and intentionally the Sith.



Yoda and the Jedi Council are really pawns playing Palpatine’s game in ROTS. Yoda’s dialogue as a General regarding the war at several stages in the film indicate the Jedi have arguably lost their way and are doing exactly as Palpatine wants them to – sending the sobering influence of Obi-Wan away from Anakin to Utapau, sending Yoda to Kashyyyk when he is needed at the Temple during Order 66, believing that the death of Grievous will end the war as Palpatine promised - not knowing they have far greater problems to consider.



A Yoda line from AOTC with great repercussions...

OBI-WAN: His abilities have made him, well, arrogant.
YODA: A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Yes, too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones.

This quote rings true in ROTS for all four Jedi involved or mentioned in this conversation – Anakin, Mace, Yoda and Obi-Wan:

- Obi-Wan arrogantly attempts to take on fallen Master Qui-Gon’s role prematurely in training Anakin, and fails by his own admission when Anakin eventually turns.
- Anakin, arrogantly taking it on himself to “save” Padme and the galaxy, takes the quick and easy path and turns to the dark side. “Love won’t save you Padme, only my new powers can do that.” His defeat at former master Obi-Wan’s hands is also largely an arrogant over-estimation of his own power.
- Mace thinks it is his duty to end Palpatine’s life – arrogantly stating “The oppression of the Sith will never return. You have lost.” and is killed by Anakin and Palpatine.
- Yoda attempts to take out The Emperor – “At an end your rule is. And not short enough it was.”, is defeated and flees into exile on Dagobah.




Something Yoda and Obi-Wan are actually consistent with in both trilogies is that they don’t think there is any desired conclusion to facing the Sith that isn’t destroying the Sith. Although Obi-Wan in ANH profoundly states “If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.” and lets Vader kill him, both Yoda and Obi-Wan’s ghost insist to Luke that he must conquer Vader and Sidious largely by force. Obi-Wan tells Luke the same thing Yoda told Obi-Wan about Anakin in ROTS - “(If you can’t kill him) Then the Emperor has already won.” Luke seems to be one of the first Jedi to ultimately win through complete passivity and faith that there is any good remaining in Vader.


Yoda’s advice to Luke in ROTJ; “Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your father’s fate you will.” is pretty applicable to Anakin in ROTS when he thinks Palpatine is defenceless and turns to stop Mace killing Palpatine.



Finally, there is an echo of a Yoda premonition in Luke’s advice to the Emperor:

ROTS
YODA: Faith in your new apprentice misplaced maybe, as is your faith in the dark side of the force.
ROTJ
LUKE: Your overconfidence is your weakness.
EMPEROR: Your faith in your friends is yours!

 

" Do or do not. There is no try." - "Only a Sith deal in absolutes".
My opinion is that Yoda is not defeated by Darth Sidious.
Master Yoda realizes that he is already a dark side user,when he overpowers Darth Sidious by reflecting back Darth Sidious force lightning.
Master Yoda I think was already using,in a subconscious way,the dark side to be very agile at almost 900 years old.
Master Yoda is stopping to use the dark side to stay alive and dies,on Dagobah.

 

I argue that. I've said this before on other threads, but Yoda is very consistent throughout the six movies. There's nothing that is contradicted between what he says/does in the PT and what he says/does in the OT.

What I would argue is silly is to pretend that things like "wars don't make one great" is a sudden realization he has after 900 years of life. Or that it means that one shouldn't fight in a war or fight for anything period.

No. Yoda doesn't like war in the PT and he doesn't like war in the OT. That doesn't mean that in case of war one should do nothing.

And that's just one example. Bottom line is: his Jedi teachings in the OT are the same and/or complementary to what's shown in the PT.

 

I never really saw a MAJOR difference between Yoda in the OT and Yoda in the PT, ya there might be a small difference here and there but is mostly just a natural evolution of his character.

Though I do believe your analysis was pretty much spot on.

Another irony is Yoda says lies and deceit are the ways of the Sith, yet I can't think of any out right lie a Sith have told throughout the entire saga. Maybe twisting the facts a little, and using their Point of view, as well as the absence of information, but never an out right lie. In contrast the Jedi from the start are built up on lies effectively deceit and all. Just something I thought of whenever I here that line. though I still would rather be a Jedi than a Sith.

 

Interesting, but I doubt that was the creator's intention.

I think Yoda and Palpatine's fight was at best a stalemate for Yoda, Yoda flees and Palpatine retains control of the galaxy, so Palpatine has essentially won for now.

I don't think absorbing or reflecting force-lightning is necessarily a dark side ability, Yoda isn't actually generating the lightning himself, he is just using a relatively defensive ability Imo. To me it shows that the dark side is not the be all and end all, turning one of the Sith's weapons back on them is like a final reminder that Palpatine isn't necessarily permanently going to be victorious.

Yoda's long life (which is partially just because of his species) and strong connection to the force can be explained by non-dark-side force power.

Interesting thought that Yoda is doing similar to the Emperor with unnatural long-life. Personally I think it is contradicted by this though...
LUKE: Master Yoda, you can't die.
YODA: Strong am I with the force... but not that strong.

Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin (when he is redeemed) are quite accepting of their own deaths in the OT.
I think Yoda would have a lot of aversion to consciously using the dark side. Whether he and the Jedi were clouded and influenced by the dark side in the PT is another matter though, and much more likely.

I beg to differ, I've already given some examples of a contrast or schism between the eras in my opening post, and I will add to that here.

I would think it was something he already strongly believed but compromised by fighting in the Sith's manufactured war. You can't honestly believe the Jedi wouldn't have been better off if they never fought in the Clone Wars? Leading an arguably slave-like army of Clones (with questionable origins) into battle against an equally puppeted (by Sidious) enemy is at best a futile effort, going further it is against what it means to be a Jedi as once established OT. Lucas pays attention to his own material, I don't think this flaw in the Jedi Order of the PT was an unintentional coincidence. The Jedi gain nothing by fighting.

The Galactic Civil War of the OT period is the fight the Jedi are right to get be behind. The Jedi aligning with the Rebellion against oppression is a fight worth fighting. In the PT the war is a sham, they are just fighting for Sidious against Sidious. What is the point? The moment the Jedi are backing an army "against Dooku" they are essentially doomed, being played, and wasting their efforts expending time, effort, resources, and lives to play Palpatine's game. The Separatists are just gullible pawns like the Republic Senate and Jedi Order; the invasion of Separatist controlled worlds and the Jedi's focus on war-time strategy is a contrast to how the Jedi are presented in clearer times.

Agreed.

Look at the writing of the PT with what the Council say and do relative to Palpatine's dialogue and actions. They waste their time with a fruitless investigation in AOTC - it just leads them to Geonosis and starts the war as Sidious and Dooku planned. In ROTS Yoda and the Jedi Council are sweeping the Outer Rim in search of Grievous until eventually Palpatine just betrays Grievous (as he planned) and tells them he is on Utapau. This search for the Separatist General (and the war generally) is just a distraction for the Jedi and Republic.The Jedi are spread thin and gradually killed off by the war, until Palpatine stabs them in the back and all but wipes them out in one fell swoop.
If the Jedi had caught on to what was happening in AOTC they wouldn't have fought the war in the first place.

In your opinion. I see a disparity.

The bolded part is Yoda saying similar to Qui-Gon, after the fall of the Republic.

Yoda failing to take his own advice perhaps? I'm guessing you would argue that Yoda was right to be wary of Anakin, but this is a self-fulfilling prophecy and a paradox. Who knows what would have happened if Qui-Gon survived and Anakin was trained by a mentor more suited to his needs?

Luke's character arc arguably makes a good case that a Jedi can be raised by a loving family outside the Order and still succeed in becoming a true Jedi.

Yoda's dialogue in the novel when he fails to defeat Palpatine, and his humility regarding Qui-Gon at the end of ROTS paints a picture of a shift in philosophy after the Order falls.

Luke really does Yoda proud in a way Yoda hadn't expected, when he throws aside his saber in defiance of the Emperor at ROTJ's climax.

 

Thanks!

I agree that Palpatine mostly speaks in pov truths and double meanings.

Although one example of an outright lie - "When the Jedi learns what has transpired here they will kill us. Along with all the Senators."

Palpatine is probably right that the Jedi would try to eliminate the Sith and take control of the Senate to save the Republic from Palpatine, but I don't think even Palpatine believes they will kill all the Senators. This is just so Anakin can rationalise his own evil actions.

Yep, the Jedi's stretching of the truth for a greater purpose is quite a grey area. I agree though, I'm mostly a Jedi fan, I'm particularly fond of Qui-Gon and Luke Skywalker.

 

That one completely slipped my mind!, and not in a milliuon years would that be true. So yes.

Lie Tally

Sith-1
Jedi-100

[/quote]

 

HevyDevy I pretty much said my piece about Yoda's arc in the other thread, so I won't go over all of that again. Nice OP though. You raise some really interesting points.

 

Appreciate the response MOC Yak Face.

That thread was interesting, a lot of my views probably indirectly come from other opinions on these forums over the years.

 

HevyDevy wrote

Luke's character arc arguably makes a good case that a Jedi can be raised by a loving family outside the Order and still succeed in becoming a true Jedi.

That was quite a premise change, IMHO (i.e. Anakin being too old). On the other hand, in ESB Yoda only had one pupil to teach.

It could also be an illustration that the original and undisputed Jedi concept how to train was flawed (but then again, Luke didn't have a girlfriend and the one he thought he had turned out to be his sister).

 

I do. The Republic they swore to protect is under attack. If they can do their small part and help for it to end sooner, they should.

You can't make that sort of argument and judgment by using your omniscient point of view against the Jedi. The Jedi, the senate, and almost every single character doesn't know what's actually going on. With the knowledge they have, they are doing the right thing.

Read above. Nobody knows it's Palpatine's game.

Sorry, but you're repeating the same fallacies over and over.

And Qui-Gon in that very sentence, is complementing Yoda's advice to Obi-Wan. That what Yoda said was to be mindful of the future but not at the expense of the moment.

How so?

No, it's not. If he knows the risks, he's just being wary. As he should.

Being a Jedi is not about suiting one's needs. It's about letting go of them and dedicate your life to serve others and the greater good.

With the convenience of being exceptionally strong in the Force and being able to learn the Jedi way in a matter of weeks(?) and conveniently ignoring that he nearly fell to the dark side because of his emotions and family.

Exceptions don't make the norm.

The novel, not the movie.

What shift? When was Yoda not humble of those with greater knowledge than him?

How exactly? Are you saying that Yoda expected him to defeat Sidious? No, he wasn't strong enough. Or that he expected him to kill Vader when he was already defeated? No, that's not the Jedi way.

 

Yes. I still wonder if when Yoda is arguing with Obi-Wan's spirit about whether to train Luke or not, is it for Luke's benefit? I mean surely he had to know they were going to train Luke eventually.
Whether or not the idea that "less-actively intentionally using the force makes them harder to sense in their exile" is a fan invention, I would think Yoda knew Luke would come of age and seek him out to begin their "last hope" plan at some stage.

Hard to say, I indeed think Luke is kind of blessed by Lucas with easier circumstances to stay on the right path than his father was. I think we are likely supposed to question the strict code of the PT Jedi with reflection on the main six movies as a whole, but then as you said Luke is never presented with the same temptation Anakin is, so it is kind of paradoxical.

But the end of the war happens simultaneously with (and is one of the Senate's main motivations for) the birth of the Empire... with Palpatine's plan as we understand it, what exactly do the Jedi have to gain by winning in the first place? I don't understand why you think there was any point when both sides are essentially led by the same party. What exactly did the Separatists do that makes them worth Jedi lives? Desire to leave the Republic? This isn't entirely different from the Rebellion's motives in the next trilogy, it is just presented to us in backwards perspective.
I get that the Jedi are doing everything they can to make it right, but they are in over their head. It's a catch 22, they are pretty screwed either way by the time ROTS comes around. My point is, if they had done differently in the earlier parts of the PT they would be less vulnerable and less compromised.

You make a fair point. But I think the Jedi of the PT have narrowed their perspective somewhat and do things a little too rigidly. Yes, it is easy for me to say from outside looking in, but my reading of the era the PT takes place in is that the Jedi are no longer looking at the state of the galaxy as widely or open-mindedly as earlier Jedi likely did... even not as broadly as Obi-Wan, Luke and Yoda do in the OT. If they aren't looking at it from the right perspective, how were they ever going to see it coming? Qui-Gon encourages living in the moment, speaks of perspective/focus being one of the most crucial parts of being a Jedi. Mentions following the force's will, and mentions Obi-Wan "has much to learn of the living force". It is largely speculation on my part I suppose, but I think many Jedi of this era have forgotten this partly.

Their abilities diminishing plays into this, the dark side presence means they are essentially blinded. I think a massive overhaul of their methods might have been the only way to clear their vision. Palpatine had such an advantage, partly due to the arrogance Yoda speaks of - "A flaw more and more common among Jedi" seems to hint that it is getting worse by AOTC. Imo we really come into the story in TPM when the collective Jedi have likely passed their peak.
Their stubborn attitude reflected in things like the initial reaction to the return of the Sith - "Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millennia!" The Sith were never gone.
There are plenty of examples of some poor decisions by the Council regarding Anakin. Appointing an inexperienced mentor in Obi-Wan, Anakin's first official assignment being he and Padme sent away to a reclusive romantic environment, asking Anakin to spy on his mentor Palpatine, sending Obi-Wan to Utapau and away from Anakin, etc.
And some of Mace's commands that we hear in the PT are quite questionable; communicating the Jedi Council's initial refusal to train Anakin, telling Anakin to stay on Tatooine in AOTC, telling Anakin to remain at the Council chambers when confronting Palpatine in ROTS. They trust their own judgement (is it truly what the force is telling them?) too much for how many mistakes they are making. I think this displays a schism between the general Council's view and Qui-Gon's methods, that you seem to find little difference between.

They don't, but like I said, what will winning the war bring them in the end?
It is Palpatine's fault, sure, but they don't take enough counter-measures to prevent war.

PALPATINE: The powers you have granted me I will lay down when this crisis is abated.

MACE: It is done, then. I will take what Jedi we have and go to Geonosis and help Obi-Wan.
YODA: Visit Kamino I will, and see this army that they have created for the Republic.

Palpatine and Dooku back them into a corner, but with how things play out you can see why the gullible Senate buys that the war is the Jedi's fault.

Lol. Well played I guess, but there was evidence there, they just weren't looking the right way. If you really want to go there, how about the Jedi knowing a "Darth Tyrannus" hired Jango as the template for the GAR, a bounty-hunter who they then see working for Dooku on Geonosis. Later they even discover Tyrannus and Dooku are the same person. Or what about Dooku telling Obi-Wan point-blank that Sidious controls the Senate and Yoda dismissing it almost entirely. Blindness.

If "the future is always in motion", then dismissing training a Jedi entirely on the premise that his future is clouded seems a little hypocritical.

LUKE: I saw a city in the Clouds...
YODA: Friends you have there.
LUKE: They were in pain.
YODA: It is the future you see.
LUKE: The future? Will they die?
YODA: Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

Yoda and Obi-Wan dismiss Luke's vision on the grounds that Luke doesn't know Han and Leia will necessarily die (and of course because a Jedi has to make these kind of personal sacrifices).
When Yoda wanted to dismiss training Anakin because "Grave danger I fear in his training", largely because of the previous observation that his future is uncertain. Seems like a contradiction.

As a side-note, I love the mention of clouds by Luke. Referencing the dream-likeness of the vision, and a deceptively safe-seeming haven for Han and Leia. The plot-thread is really well done.

It is a paradox. By treating Anakin like an abnormal Jedi when he is arguably the most important one, they isolate Anakin and partially push him toward the Sith. Anakin then turns, thus proving they were right to be suspicious of him in the first place, but it is because they were suspicious that it was easier for Palpatine to steal him. Totally circular.

I agree, but the Jedi put a lot of pressure on Anakin to be more than he was, without ever telling him they appreciate it. Besides maybe Obi-Wan, really.

Highly debatable. I'm not the authority on this.

True, but Lucas approved of the line "The Jedi Order had failed to change because he hadn't let it change."

Going by the film alone, we have the symbolic moment Yoda falls from high in the Senate chambers at the end of the battle (symbolically; think of Obi-Wan falling during Order 66, Mace falling to his death earlier, Luke basically near killing himself free-falling to defy Vader's offer of power on Cloud City). And Yoda loses his Jedi cape which catches on a pole, making Yoda now look frail and weak.
"Into exile I must go. Failed I have."
I just wish there was more dialogue about it in the final film.

You are being pretty literal here. When is Yoda ever seen to be referred to as an apprentice anywhere else in the series?

He wanted Luke to kill Vader. Redemption wasn't even considered a possibility. Granted, I don't know what Yoda expected to be done about the Emperor.

 

"Only a fully trained Jedi, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor".

Taking it at face value, The Plan was for Luke to keep training until he surpasses the Emperor.

 

That makes sense.

It fits that Yoda states Luke must face Vader to be a Jedi, and "not to underestimate the powers of the Emperor" is perhaps more about the risk of turning, than referencing facing Sidious sooner.

I think Luke was a bit foolhardy in believing Vader wouldn't turn him over, out of the remaining goodness in Vader. But Luke seems quite confident regardless, as a near Jedi he mostly has control of any fear he once held of the two.

 

If you watch with more care the battle between Yoda and Darth Sidious you will see that Darth Sidious is afraid of Master Yoda.
When Darth Sidious is laughing,even if he lost his light saber and can not overpower Master Yoda,is laughing because he is sensing that Master
Yoda is very close to fall to the dark side.
Mace Windu can barely block Darth Sidious force lightning,with his sword,while Master Yoda has no problem to block it with bare hands....
if that is not a dark side ability,what it is ?
Not to mention,that after the duel between Master Yoda and Sidious 40 years,at maximum,are passing and Master Yoda became a lot more old.
Master Yoda was than,about 860 years old and in ROTJ,about 900 years old.
Why ? Not because before Master Yoda was using the dark side of the force,to stay in a very vigorous form ?

And watch with more attention,Master Yoda absorbs/blocks Darth Sidious force lightning,slowly pushing it back towards Sidious.
When Master Yoda enters the room,he gets a full force lightning,like a champ.
Without having any problems after.
Master Yoda did not even try to blocks the force lightning.
Because,Master Yoda was using both the dark side and the light side,but was not falling to the dark side.
However,before fully reflecting back the force lightning to Sidious,Master Yoda realize that the path he is following will not save the galaxy from the Sith,because Master Yoda is becoming a Sith.
So Master Yoda does a stronger reflection back,to run. And in exile,Master Yoda starts to follow the light side.

 

The Jedi don't know Palpatine's plan. With the knowledge the Jedi have, the end of the war would bring peace and room for dialogue.

I know that, but the Jedi don't. I'm judging the actions of the Jedi based on what they know.

Attack the Republic.

What should they have done differently? Under what basis?

Like what?

What earlier Jedi? What do we know of them to make that claim?

What's the right perspective?

I don't see any reason to suspect many Jedi have forgotten about the living Force aspect.

Because Palpatine is actively using the dark side to that effect.

What methods should be overhauled? In what way would such overhaul prevent the dark side from clouding them?

The Jedi in TPM are in their peak.

That's the opinion of one Jedi among twelve. If you're making an argument, you can't cherry pick things.

How was that a poor decision? Didn't Obi-Wan instruct him well?

Anakin's assignment was to escort a senator to her home planet. What's wrong with that? Are they to blame for Anakin's personal actions in there? Why? Are you impying that they should have known about everything? Why?

He's not his mentor. To the Jedi, they are just friends. And despite being a controversial decision, Anakin was the only Jedi that could be in that position.

What?! How is that a poor decision? Seriously? Why shouldn't they have sent him to Utapau? Because you've watched Revenge of the Sith and know what happens next?

Announcing the Council's decision is questionable?

Why are those questionable?

I've yet to see any evidence to support the claim of 'mistakes'.

They serve the Republic. The end of the war would bring peace.

Like what?

Yes, they didn't watch the movies.

Tyranus, not Darth Tyranus.

Bounty hunters work for the highest bidder. It's Dooku, but it could be anybody else.

Much later, yes. And then what? Are they supposed to leave in the middle of the war? How does that help anything?

He says that lies and deceit are his ways now. Which is true. Dooku knows that as well, that's why he was confortable telling part of the truth.

The future is always in motion, but that doesn't make visions of the future meaningless or certain things that could be foreseen to be completely clouded.

His future being clouded and uncertain is not the reason for not allowing Anakin to be trained. It's just one more variable for a bigger problem.

But he isn't a normal Jedi. He's being introduced for training with 9 years of emotions and attachments, all of which increase his fear of loss.

No, they don't. Palpatine was the one who took advantage of Anakin's emotions.

No, it isn't. How can one blame the Jedi for Anakin's own mistakes and Palpatine's personal agenda? It's a non-sequitur. They are not Anakin's babysitters. Anakin is responsible for his own actions. He got the right training and advice from the Jedi and didn't follow through with their ways and teachings. He let his emotions and fears control his actions and that's why he fell.

When did that happen?

Source?

He's not. You're the one with the burden of proof. When was Yoda not humble? How does his humility showcase a shift?

He wanted him to confront Vader. I never heard Yoda or Obi-Wan saying they wanted Luke to kill Vader once he had defeated him.

Just like when Anakin defeated Dooku. He had no chance of causing any more harm. Anakin killed him anyway and then acknowledged that what he did is not the Jedi way.

 

Fair enough.

The Republic was already being attacked from within.
I know I'm repeating myself, but without the Sith fanning the flames on both sides it would not have escalated to near the same scale of war. The Jedi responding by going to war is a flawed move, I know you don't agree, but to me it contrasts how the Jedi are presented in TPM and the OT - "I can only protect you, I can't fight a war for you." Whether the Jedi fight or not the Sith still win. But maybe that is part of your point.
Also, arguably the Separatists leaving the Republic wasn't necessary to quell. It's a reasonable action until Dooku goads them into making threats against the Republic.

Some examples...

The Jedi are too connected to the Republic. They nobly take it as their duty to protect the Repubic, yes, but the Republic was failing long before the Jedi Order went down with it. There is a hint in the TPM opening crawl that Valorum has secretly sent two Jedi to negotiate with the TF. The Jedi should be taking order from themselves, not the Senate. The first half of the ROTS script references at several times that the Palpatine's power over the Jedi Council is increasing through Consitutional ammendments, that they are more and more being made to answer directly to him. Anakin sees little problem with this (ties into his transition from Jedi to Sith making more sense to him as he had no problem with central control), but the Jedi are right to be concerned by it. It had been set up in TPM that they are becoming too dependent on the Senate and Republic to make their decisions. Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Luke working autonomously from a government in the OT had the right idea Imo.

When Padme returns to Naboo (after Coruscant) in TPM, the Council only send two Jedi with her. Surely they can spare more Jedi, maybe even capture Maul and question him and come closer to unraveling the Sith plan.

On Palpatine's suggestion (!), the Council assign Obi-Wan and Anakin to protect Padme. Arguably Palpatine is sneakily getting Anakin and Padme together to tempt Anakin.

"Anakin, go to the Senate and ask Chancellor Palpatine to speak with Senator Amidala on this matter." This is an example of the Council pushing Anakin towards Palpatine (the scene following is Anakin and Palpatine's only scene together in AOTC - "You don't need guidance, Anakin." , "Soon you will learn to trust your feelings. Then you will be invincible." , etc.) They are also gullible for helping Palpatine send Padme - the leader of the opposition to the army - off-world during the GAR vote.

Accepting the Clone army with how dodgy it's origins were is a mistake I think. I have a problem with Jedi leading troops at all, really, but that's just me.
Especially when using the army requires the Chancellor's emergency powers being given to him, something the Jedi actually approve of at first.
The war essentially begins (at least on the surface - the literal war against the Separatists) when the Jedi accept an army and invade Geonosis.

Against better judgement they assign Anakin to spy on his trusted friend Palpatine. Yeah, they understandably needed to see what Palpatine was up to, but they already think Anakin is conflicted, immature, and careless with his own power, and this is their decision?

They spread themselves thin across the galaxy to fight the Clone Wars, send Yoda away when he is needed at the Jedi Temple during Order 66, and like I said send Obi-Wan away - leaving Anakin with only the father-figure of Palpatine.

It's subjective, but I feel they too strictly adhere to a code. Arguably stagnating. They are stubborn, you say I'm cherry-picking but Ki-Adi's and Mace's comments that the Sith are extinct, and couldn't have returned, is supposed to represent that a significant portion of the Jedi Order is close-minded. Think of the parallel in ANH - Tarkin stating the Jedi are extinct, and just before Luke destroys the Deathstar arrogantly stating "Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!" In ROTS both Mace and Yoda confidently state they are preventing/ending Palpatine's rule before Sidious defeats them and continues ruling.

Yes, I admit that is just speculation on my part.

By fighting at all they had lost before they began.

Maybe. One example; I think Mace, at the moment he is betrayed by Anakin and killed, wasn't fully attuned to the force's will, he was egocentrically acting under the impression that what he decided is what was best for everyone. A Jedi like Obi-Wan for example fully gives himself to the force, no sense of self, I think this is why he is blessed with so many lucky victories. He does what the force asks of him. The Sith, and some of the Jedi in their weakest moments, impose their will in the force.

I agree that is part of it, but I think as the force goes further out of balance there is a blinding effect that Palpatine isn't consciously causing.

The meditative frame of mind the Jedi seem more to display in TPM and the OT, than during the Clone Wars.

You are probably right, but at the very least it is the tail-end of their peak.

Like I said, they speak for and represent a significant portion of the Order.

MACE: I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing.
YODA: Ah, hard to see the dark side is.

AOTC:
DOOKU: The dark side of the force has clouded their vision, my friend. Hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a dark Lord of the Sith known as... Darth Sidious.
OBI-WAN: I don't believe you.

From the scripts...

ROTS:
"I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you. I could never teach you to think!"
ROTJ:
"I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride had terrible consequences for the galaxy."

He takes on the burden because of loyalty to Qui-Gon, not because he is most suited to the task. The Council arguably should have chosen a more experienced mentor.

I don't blame the Jedi directly for that, it was Anakin's responsibility as you say. But circumstance sure made things easier for Palpatine.

See above.

Um, you are missing a key recurring theme in the films - Obi-Wan is a like a tether for Anakin's conscience. You will notice Obi-Wan is involved, or his name is mentioned, at key points regarding Anakin's fall.

In AOTC Obi-Wan has a shaky relationship with his apprentice (although they have grown closer by ROTS). Anakin wants to live up to his status as the chosen one, and is frustrated at the regimented nature of Obi-Wan's teaching "holding him back". Of course we know better, Jedi shouldn't desire recognition or power. Obi-Wan wants what is best for Anakin, but is not really looking at the big-picture regarding some of his criticisms. Anakin speaks jealously of Obi-Wan to Padme, but at the end of the day tells a frustrated Obi-Wan that he is like a father.
Anyway, Obi-Wan seems a little lost for what to do for Anakin in Ep2; for example his advice on Anakin's premonitions of his mother "Dreams pass in time." is great advice - for anyone who isn't Anakin. I wonder how Qui-Gon would have interpreted the dreams, considering Anakin's dreams tend to always come true in some form.
A significant moment I don't see discussed a lot, that I have mentioned before, is Obi-Wan's dialogue following the scene where Anakin begins his revenge slaughter on the Tusken camp. It demonstrates a schism between Anakin and Obi-Wan - and by extension the Jedi Order and the right path.

"That's Anakin's tracking signal alright, but it's coming from Tattooine! What in blazes is he doing there? I told him to stay on Naboo! ... I do hope nothing has happened to him."

This says it all... through no intentional fault by Obi-Wan he has insensitively missed the point during one of Anakin's darkest moments. It shows that he can't truly help his Anakin overcome his greatest flaws. Yoda senses Anakin's pain, but Anakin never divulges to anyone besides Padme and Palpatine what really happened.

Additionally there is one of many Obi-Wan name-drops during Anakin's confession to Padme.

"It's all Obi-Wan's fault! He's jealous, he's holding me back!"

This is Anakin angrily lashing out, but it is actually partly true. Qui-Gon's passing sort of left Obi-Wan and Anakin like rival surrogate brothers. But my main point - Anakin mentioning Obi-Wan is because he is really angry at himself - Obi-Wan represents Anakin's conscience and the Jedi Anakin really aspires to be.

This isn't the only time it happens. After Anakin's nightmare in ROTS Padme suggests "Do you think Obi-Wan might be able to help us?" Anakin: "We don't need his help. Our baby is a blessing."
Anakin solemnly states this, really to convince himself. His arrogance means he wants to handle everything alone, it is a key part of his turn that he feels he needs to take responsibility for Padme's life and the state of the galaxy.

Obi-Wan going to Utapau is an extension of these themes. Remember, Palpatine reveals Grievous's location with timing that fits in with his greater plan. Everything Palpatine does in the film regarding Grievous is a clever reflection of Palpatine's plans for turning Anakin and "ending" the war when he sees fit.

"Anakin, come closer, I have good news. Our Clone intelligence has discovered the location of General Grievous. He's hiding in the Utapau system."
"At last. We will be able to capture that monster and end this war."
"I would worry about the collective wisdom of the Council if they didn't select you for this assignment. You're the best choice. By far."

Palpatine knows very well they won't send Anakin away, so he is sewing seeds of doubt in Anakin and making himself look warmer by comparison. Obi-Wan is therefore away on an ultimately fruitless mission when he could be helping keep Anakin spiritually grounded on Coruscant. Imagine how much harder Anakin would be to turn if Obi-Wan was in Mace's place. It also isn't a coincidence that Obi-Wan is unconscious when Anakin kills Dooku - "Did I miss something?" (and he obliviously congratulates Anakin on his victory later) - and off-world when Anakin betrays Mace.

Another example, when Anakin tells Padme the Jedi are traitors, she asks nervously "What about Obi-Wan?" Anakin: "I don't know. Many Jedi have been killed. We can only hope he has remained loyal to the Chancellor." Part of Anakin's gradual slide; that he doesn't yet personally want to have to kill Obi-Wan, until later in the film.

Finally, Padme again implores Anakin to accept Obi-Wan's help on Mustafar...

ANAKIN: Obi-Wan is trying to turn you against me.
PADME: He cares about us.
ANAKIN: Us??!
PADME: He knows . . . He wants to help you.

This time Anakin, contrasting his good persona earlier in the film, just smiles at Padme's naivety.


It all adds a very ironic tinge to Vader's attitude towards Obi-Wan in the OT.

VADER: He is here.
TARKIN: Obi-Wan Kenobi?

There is a little in-joke about it in AOTC - "He claims to be the property of an Obi-Wan Kenobi. Master Ani, does that name mean anything to you?"

Point taken, but it is still noticeable that Mace both relays to Qui-Gon the information that Anakin will not be trained, and tells Anakin that he is being denied mastership.

The AOTC moment is debatable, but I was thinking Padme has a point that they are much closer to Geonosis than Mace. The ROTS quote - you are going to disagree on this - but Mace should have brought the chosen one along, someone destined to end the Sith, if he is confronting the last Sith Lord in the galaxy. If even just for Anakin's peace of mind. Imo he made the wrong decision. There is also a running theme in the saga someone pointed out to me about self-imposed prisons. Mace is often putting restrictions on Anakin, notice in ESB when Luke wants to abandon his training and help his friends on Cloud City, Yoda can't force him to stay.

See above.

We have to agree to disagree here, I think the fact the war is a sham, and the fact Palpatine is the main person bringing about it's end, means it shouldn't be a Jedi priority.

Negotiation. "Anakin this war represents a failure to listen. Now you're closer than anyone to the Chancellor, please ask him to stop the fighting and let diplomacy resume."

Neither did Palpatine, and he seemed to know what he was doing.

Good point, but still, the signs they could have used were there.

They would suspect a plot to destroy them earlier than one scene before Palpatine tells Anakin who he really is.

I guess.

OBI-WAN: The boy is dangerous, they all sense it. Why can't you?
QUI-GON: His future is uncertain, he's not dangerous.

Very subjective topic.

I agree, but I don't think it is the only reason they are like that. He is the chosen one, and gets metaphorically kept at a distance because of it. They don't let their guard down, besides maybe Obi-Wan.

No argument there, but Anakin was looking for something in Palpatine that the Jedi weren't giving him.

I essentially agree, but it is still a paradoxical situation. I didn't say I could do better than the Jedi myself.

One example, the scene where Obi-Wan, Mace, and Yoda discuss Anakin's assignment to spy on the Chancellor. Obi-Wan defends him - "Is he not the chosen one? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force?" - against concerns the prophecy was misread. But Obi-Wan doesn't say this to Anakin - they never discuss his chosen status until Obi-Wan dismembers Anakin and laments "You were the chosen one!" in past context.

I was just referring to Lucas line-approving the novelisation. Yoda says this when he talks to Qui-Gon's spirit... "Too old I was", Yoda said. "Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is no the only way. These Jedi, I trained to become the Jedi who trained me, long centuries ago - but those ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Changed, the Order did not - because let it change I did not."
"More easily said than done my friend".

It's not the humility that is a shift. Yoda acknowledges he has more to learn and refers to Qui-Gon as his new master. Why would he say this if he didn't believe he had failed, and was going to change his approach?

OBI-WAN: Send me to kill The Emperor, I will not kill Anakin.
YODA: To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not.
OBI-WAN: He is like my brother. I cannot do it!
YODA: Twisted by the dark side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is, consumed by Darth Vader.

LUKE: I can't kill my own father.
OBI-WAN: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

You and I have a very different view of the end of ROTJ. Luke's blind faith and compassion for Vader is something the Jedi of the past didn't completely have. He essentially wins by doing different to Yoda and Obi-Wan in the PT.

 

(I don't want to interrupt the discussion between HevyDevy and Alexrd, but I just wanted to note that I see which perspectives both sides are approaching from. HevyDevy is arguing that with their connection to the Force, the Jedi are supposed to be better than they were by the time of TPM and the Clone Wars. Alexrd is arguing that the Jedi are doing things reasonably given the constraints each of them are under (upbringing, the Code, galactic situation etc.). The in-universe ending is that the Jedi are "punished" for not being "what they could have been given their connection to the Force", but it doesn't negate the fact that it is a mighty cruel punishment for a group whose intention was simply to do good and who had not appeared to have strayed way too far from the morals that guide normal people, and an extreme way to reset the situation.)

 

But it's Dooku's threat of attacking a defenseless Republic that Obi-Wan hears and reports back.

Yes, there is corruption in the senate. And then what? What do you propose the Jedi do? For all it's problems, the Republic was still a democracy, the voice of most of the galaxy's citizens.

The senate represents the people and the Jedi serve the senate within their own rules. Without the senate, they lose any jurisdiction they have and would be nothing more than vigilantes.

That only happens in the middle of RotS.

The problem is not the senate. The problem is that the senate's power (including the emergency ones for war time) is being moved to a single person: Palpatine. That's a dictatorial move. And the Jedi, concerned as they are, begin to investigate Palpatine through Anakin.

What makes you so sure of that? It's established that the number of Jedi in the galaxy is very low. And even if it wasn't, weren't two Jedi enough?

If he was a Sith. And assuming Maul would allow himself to be captured.

Yes, and at the same time trying to get into Jedi affairs. Still, the Jedi don't (and shouldn't) see a problem with Obi-Wan and Anakin being assigned to a Senator they know and have served in the past.

No, it's a formality. Has it been any other Jedi assigned with that mission, they would ask the same thing.

To protect her life. And she still had final say in the matter. To try to blame that on the Jedi is ridiculous.

Accepting?! What choice did they have? It was the senate who allowed the use of the army.

Irrelevant. The Jedi have nothing to do with politics.

The war begins when the senate accepts and allows the army to be used. The Jedi are just helping to protect the Republic.

By the time of RotS, the Council (with the exception of Mace) is more confident of Anakin's abilities and trust. Obi-Wan says so himself: He won't fail me, he never has.

Order 66 happens later. Why do you keep blaming them for what happens after? Something they have no knowledge of? That's a fallacy, as I've said before.

What father figure? Are you saying the Jedi should have known how Anakin felt about Palpatine? Should they have watched the movies? Seriously, that line of argument is getting ridiculous. I don't mind discussing with someone with a different opinion, but this is the same fallacy repetead ad nauseum.

It's supposed to represent two Jedi among twelve. The question is left up in the air, and they all agree that an investigation is in order.

Unlike Tarkin, they aren't ignoring what's happening or discarding any chances.

So the solution is not fighting and let tyranny be set more quickly in the galaxy?

In what way was not destroying Sidious the best for the galaxy?

No, they didn't impose anything. The source of imbalance in the Force, the source of war, death and dictatorship was at the tip of his blade. His destruction is essential for everything. It's not like he's defenseless, like Dooku in RotS or Vader in RotS. He just lost his lightsaber and pretended to be weak only to try to sneakly attack Windu again with lightning.

It's still a consequence of his actions.

As a Jedi Knight, he's able to take a Padawan.

Circumstances created/fomented by Palpatine.

And what does that have to do with the Council's decision?

I'm glad you acknowledge that. I guess the argument of blaming the Jedi for not attending Anakin's personal needs can be dropped.

How do you know they tend to come true? We have no evidence of that until later in AotC. Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon, nobody would jump to the conclusion that he was having premonitions. And even if they knew that he was having premonitions, Yoda's advice in RotS was still the right one.

What point did he miss? His connection to the Force is not like Yoda's. And he was in the middle of the mission, and trusted Anakin to be on his.

That's on Anakin.

And announces missions to the Jedi based on what the Council has decided.

"Nothing to see here. Move along, move along."

But. They. Don't. Know.

Nobody except the Sith know that the war is a sham, or that Palpatine is behind it all, pulling the strings.

He's the cause. He's the one in control. It's his plan that we are watching in the PT. Everyone is just reacting to it.

There were no signs that the Sith were behind it all.

Where is the pressure you spoke of? Being the Chosen One just means he was destined to do something, instead of the complete opposite. What he ended up doing was against the Jedi way, Chosen One or not.

Broad and generic statement from Stover. I don't see Lucas ever going through a novel line-by-line for approval. What he did do was mage certain edits to the dialogue and some passages. That's a fact.

Because it's not about change. It's about learning something new.

What reason did they have for having compassion towards Vader considering the atrocities they saw him do?

He's in a completely different position from Yoda and Obi-Wan. And had they done what Luke did in RotS, Anakin wouldn't have returned to the light side. It was Luke's compassion and selflessness as his son that made him change.

 

This here is to me the very essence of the OT and possibly of Qui Gon's philosophy as well. Everything, including Yoda and Obiwan's advice, pointed to Vader being beyond redemption, but Luke felt the good in his father so he set all that aside and behaved accordingly.

 

Yes, Dooku is riling them up, and inciting them to join him in his plan to overwhelm an army-less Republic, by the time Obi-Wan eavesdrops. But the movement is already referenced as happening in the opening crawl. It also mentions that the movement is making it hard for the small number of Jedi to maintain order (the Republic's rationalisation to taking advantage when an army conveniently appears, and a hint at the Jedi's impending tragic fate). Palpatine states in the second scene in the film "I don't know how much longer I can hold of the vote, my friends. More and more Star systems are joining the Separatists." So the Republic/Senate is stressed, and looks for a quick end to the conflict (something Palpatine appears to offer them when he creates the Empire) - impatience, the "quick and easy path". The crisis Palpatine has created makes him appear like his hands are tied (of course in reality it is all by his design) and the Palpatine quote also ties into the fact that Palpatine notably no longer has to call for a vote at all when he later instates the Empire in ROTS. My point is, Palpatine is responsible, but the public had to do their part, and going to war voluntarily is part of their mistake. Palpatine was just telling them what they wanted to hear, and the average Republic citizen doesn't even have to fight because of the Clones doing it for them, it is quite a detached mentality.

Ideally, but it becomes less and less their voice over the PT (even before TPM), until no one is truly speaking for them at all. It isn't an instant transition, and the Jedi were dooming themselves by going along with it until so late in the game.

Fair point, but it is a catch-22. By the time we come into the story in TPM, I don't see how the Jedi can avoid their fate while still serving the Senate blindly. Yes, they idealistically try to serve it the best they can, but I can't imagine a situation where it is the right decision to continue doing this with how the PT plays out. The Senate doesn't deserve them Imo.
I mentioned the fact that Valorum sends the Jedi secretly because it partially demonstrates they are already wary of outside influence, kind of ironic that it becomes the next Chancellor they are trying to keep information from. The moment Amidala calls for a vote-of-no-confidence in Valorum is one of the biggest moments that the Senate is starting to sell their rights away. Part of the point of the PT is how everyone contributes to the tragedy; Amidala because of Sidious, the Senate, the Jedi Order, the public servants and the Clone Army, Anakin. Like Lucas says the six-part saga is a story of how one generation screws up the galaxy and one generation is struggling to fix it.

I suppose, on the surface at least. It is in the second act.
The script has a lot of interesting and important stuff that isn't in the final film. The scenes where Obi-Wan relays to Anakin (because Anakin missed the meeting due to his personal problem) that the Chancellor wants to speak to him, and the interaction between Anakin and Palpatine that follows, are more involved than the final cut. It really gets in Anakin's head and shows the Jedi are starting to get really uneasy. I think Lucas made the final-cut less political, the Jedi are more involved in "Council vs Palpatine" originally, and Anakin is agreeing with Palpatine's ideology more, earlier on.


OBI-WAN: The Senate is expected to vote more executive powers to the Chancellor today.
ANAKIN: Well, that can only mean less deliberating and more action. Is that bad? It will make it easier for us to end this war.
OBI-WAN: Anakin, be careful of your friend Palpatine.
ANAKIN: Be careful of what?
OBI-WAN: He has requested your presence.
ANAKIN: What for?
OBI-WAN: He would not say.
ANAKIN: He didn't inform the Jedi Council? That's unusual, isn't it?
OBI-WAN: All of this is unusual, and it's making me feel uneasy. You're probably aware that relations between the Council and the Chancellor are stressed.
ANAKIN: I know the Council has grown wary of the Chancellor's power, mine also for that matter. Aren't we all working together to save the Republic? Why all this distrust?
OBI-WAN: The Force grows dark, Anakin, and we are all affected by it. Be wary of your feelings.

80 INT. CORUSCANT-CHANCELLOR'S OFFICE-DAY
ANAKIN stands with PALPATINE at his window overlooking the vastness of Coruscant. Several buildings have been destroyed. A brown haze hangs over the landscape.

PALPATINE: Anakin, this afternoon the Senate is going to call on me to take direct control of the Jedi Council.
ANAKIN: The Jedi will no longer report to the Senate?
PALPATINE: They will report to me . . . personally. The Senate is too unfocused to conduct a war. This will bring a quick end to things.
ANAKIN: I agree, but the Jedi Council may not see it that way.
PALPATINE: There are times when we must all endure adjustments to the constitution in the name of security.
ANAKIN: With all due respect, sir, the Council is in no mood for more constitutional amendments.
PALPATINE: Thank you, my friend, but in this case I have no choice . . . this war must be won.
ANAKIN: Everyone will agree on that.
PALPATINE: Anakin, I've known you since you were a small boy. I have advised you over the years when I could ... I am very proud of your accomplishments. You have won many battles the Jedi Council thought were lost . . . and you saved my life. I hope you trust me, Anakin.
ANAKIN: Of course.
PALPATINE: I need your help, son.
ANAKIN: What do you mean?
PALPATINE: I fear the Jedi. The Council keeps pushing for more control. They're shrouded in secrecy and obsessed with maintaining their autonomy . . . ideals. I find simply incomprehensible in a democracy.
ANAKIN: I can assure you that the Jedi are dedicated to the values of the Republic, sir.
PALPATINE: Nevertheless, their actions will speak more loudly than their words. I'm depending on you.
ANAKIN: For what? I don't understand.
PALPATINE: To be the eyes, ears, and voice of the Republic . . .
ANAKIN thinks about this.
PALPATINE: (continuing) Anakin . . . I'm appointing you to be my personal representative on the Jedi Council.
ANAKIN: Me? A Master? I am overwhelmed, sir, but the Council elects its own members. They will never accept this.
PALPATINE: I think they will . . . they need you more than you know.


To be honest, the Jedi seem smarter in the original cut. Perhaps people would see them as more perceptive in the PT if this hadn't been cut. Although it does make them appear a little less innocent.


Back to your original point;
The Chancellor's emergency powers happens as far back as AOTC and the Jedi essentially approve of it to go to war. Mace's comment "It is done, then." is a pretty strong statement in favour of what Palpatine is doing.

In ROTS script there is more reference to just how frequently the constitution, with Senate approval, is being amended. And even the leftist Senators who are not in support of Palpatine are suspicious of the Jedi - "We don't yet know where the Jedi fit into all of this." The Jedi partly helped Palpatine set-up their own framing. They should have focused more on their case against Palpatine from earlier than ROTS, got the support of the good Senators still left. Their actions in the PT indicate they aren't thinking openly on the possibility that they should break away until very near destruction. They are obviously suspicious by the middle of ROTS. The fact that as soon as word of Grievous's defeat reaches the Jedi, Mace is on his way to check Palpatine hands back power, is telling. Anakin gives him the vital info, but then Mace still leaves for the Chancellor's office straight away - this impatience in not gathering evidence, not informing the Jedi Council and galaxy-wide Jedi of the truth, is a fatal flaw. The evidence I previously gave on the suspicious nature of the Clone Army coupled with the news that Palpatine - their commander - is a particularly powerful Sith Lord, should have rang alarm bells. Palpatine is confident, he isn't going anywhere - making him look innocent relative to the Jedi which storm in without any real plan at all.

I agree, but in the final cut they are suspicious pretty late in the game. Appointing Anakin as the Chancellor's representative is something Palpatine knows the Jedi will agree to so they can investigate him, he is purposely driving a further wedge between Anakin and his Jedi brethren, and guaranteeing further alone time between he and Anakin. Yes, we know where it goes so it is easy to judge, but still... they should have used someone other than a conflicted chosen one. They are both suspicious of Anakin yet completely blind to what they are helping Palpatine do to him.

Well, Qui-Gon is, and Obi-Wan almost is, killed fighting him. And they don't know any more about the Sith's plan after it. Trivially, I'm not sure what makes the Jedi sure the warrior was a Sith by the end of the movie.

True.

I'm not really implying on this point that they are responsible for this, but no one sees Anakin is being doomed having a Sith pruning him all those years.

It's still their idea, Mace informs Anakin of the mission and tells them to ask Palpatine to persuade her. "Senator Amidala will not refuse an executive order. I know her well enough to assure you of that."
I don't think her absence during the vote is a coincidence from a writing standpoint.

Sorry to drive us in circles, we have to just accept we disagree regarding the Jedi's involvement in the war.

Don't they? Ideally they shouldn't be, but everything is interconnected, it is part of my argument that serving the Republic is their downfall.

Same as above.

Yoda also indicates doubt in the prophecy. Obi-Wan trusts Anakin, yes, it is part of why he can't fully sense Anakin sliding.

It's not so much about blame as it is my belief they were cursed and their own actions tragically help bring about their own destruction. It still wouldn't happen at all without Palpatine though.

In the original cut Palpatine reveals to Anakin that he was responsible for creating him. And Ian McDiarmid said once "If you want a subtitle for these films it could be fathers and sons." It's a running theme, after Qui-Gon dies Obi-Wan and Palpatine invisibly battle for the role of Anakin's metaphorical father. And Luke of course, will need to break away from a path similar to his father and be his own master in the OT.

This is pretty debatable, we don't hear many of the non-main-character Jedi speaking so it is hard to say.

We've debated this before, and my view is still the same. Mace is blind to Anakin's coming betrayal, even at the end. He has ironically finally started to trust Anakin when Anakin betrays him. He also clearly indicates he thinks he has won when he attempts to kill Sidious.

And Palpatine states before blasting Yoda with lightning "Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda." Yeah, that is just Palpatine speaking, but it echoes Yoda's own words.

I think tbh it doesn't matter either way. It's win-win for Palpatine. Without the Sith spreading fear and uncertainty I doubt the Separatists would refuse a treaty to let them legally leave the Republic.

Yes, but it wasn't Mace's decision. And Anakin is the chosen one, technically Mace can't bring balance to the force anyway. If Palpatine wasn't so sure Anakin was going to intervene he would have kept trying to kill Mace himself.

No, they didn't impose anything. The source of imbalance in the Force, the source of war, death and dictatorship was at the tip of his blade. His destruction is essential for everything. It's not like he's defenseless, like Dooku in RotS or Vader in RotS. He just lost his lightsaber and pretended to be weak only to try to sneakly attack Windu again with lightning.
[/quote]

I get your point of view, but Lucas states in the commentary Mace made the wrong decision by trying to kill Sidious, even after the lightning.

Agreed.

That seems a little oversimplified, the movies are written in a way that implies Obi-Wan wasn't the man for the job. I gave examples already that you seem to be ignoring.

Lucas quotes indicate the fall of the Republic was the fault of many people, as I mentioned earlier.

It's about symbolism Imo, not an argument that the Council was intentionally inept. Obi-Wan and Anakin as master and apprentice was never meant to be. Their destinies send them in opposite directions, but Obi-Wan gets it right with Anakin's son.

- "I had a dream I was a Jedi. I came back here and freed all the slaves."
Anakin becomes a Jedi, and the last bit is probably a metaphor for ending the Empire.

- Anakin dreams he will marry Padme in the TPM novelisation if I'm not mistaken.

- "I saw my mother. I saw her as clearly as I see you know. She is in pain."

- "...And, it was about you."
"Tell me."
"You die in childbirth."


Yoda's advice being right is a fair point, I think it wasn't what Anakin needed but would be correct for a regular Jedi.

Again, it is symbolic. There is more than just space-distance separating the two.
To me it demonstrates Obi-Wan truly can't help Anakin become what he needed to be.

I agree, but it is significant nevertheless.

Yes, from our point of view, but Anakin glares at Mace there in TPM, what type of memories do you think are going through Anakin's mind when he is weighing up siding with Mace or Palpatine during the office confrontation? You say it was just about Padme, but from Anakin's pov this factor makes betraying Mace easier.

Pus, something I noticed is this neat contrast...

MACE: Take a seat, young Skywalker.
(Coldly stated. Offering Anakin a tactically motivated seat on the Council.)

PALPATINE: You're the best choice. By far. Sit down. (To his aides): Leave us.
(Warmly gestured. Essentially offering Anakin a seat as one of only two Sith Lords in the galaxy. Anakin is susceptible due to his own power-hunger.)

They don't know, but they had a few chances to find out. But point conceded anyway.

Like I said, in TCW they even find out that Tyrannus and Dooku are one in the same. And they see Jango, the Clone template who said he was hired by Tyrannus, is working for Dooku. Plus Dooku tells Obi-Wan about the Sith and the Senate, but the Jedi refuse to believe it.

The pressure seems implied - "You've made a commitment to the Jedi Order, a commitment not easily broken."

On your other point, I agree.

That's speculation either way, Imo it broadly reflects Lucas's intention.

Not according to the novel.

Fair enough, but you would have to be essentially disagreeing with ROTJ.

You don't know what would have happened. They didn't even try.

 

Well put. The title of the film is the most appropriate of the seven I think. Luke's moral and spiritual victory, and Anakin finally seeing what he couldn't in the PT, is truly the Jedi Order's return.

TPM -
ANAKIN: I don't want things to change.
SHMI: But you can't stop the change any more than you can stop the suns from setting.

AOTC -
ANAKIN: I'm good at fixing things. Always was.
...
PADME: Sometimes there are things no one can fix.
,,,
PAMDE: You're not all powerful Annie.
ANAKIN: Well I should be. Someday I will be.

ROTS -
PADME: At what cost? You are a good person. Don't do this.
ANAKIN: I won't lose you the way I lost my mother! I've become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of and I've done it for you. To protect you.
PADME: Come away with me. Help me raise our child. Leave everything else behind while we still can.
ANAKIN: Don't you see, we don't have to run away anymore. I have brought peace to the Republic. I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him, and together you and I can rule the galaxy. Make things the way we want them to be.

ROTJ -
ANAKIN: Luke, help me take this mask off.
LUKE: But you'll die!
ANAKIN: Nothing can stop that now. For once let me look on you with my own eyes.

 

People are free to leave the Republic if they so wish. But the threat of a Separatist attack is what make them react and try to prevent it on Geonosis.

It's always the voice. The problem is that the senate, like the Jedi, are being deceived.

See above.

Source?

No, it's a statement made by someone expecting what was coming. They knew someone was going to make the proposal, and they knew Palpatine would have to accept due to the impending attack.

No, they are ignorant about the Jedi's position.

It's not a matter of choice.

Only Anakin was in a position to be able to spy on Palpatine.

They can sense his feelings, not his thoughts and life.

But they handled him. There is literally no reason to dispatch more than two Jedi other than knowing what ended up happening.

The fallacy again.

His ship? Appearance? Actions? Records?

Because they aren't his babysitter, and no one knows Palpatine is a Sith.

But not for political reasons.

It's not. But it has nothing to do with the Jedi.

What should they serve then? Nobody? Then how should/could they act?

In the prophecy, not on Anakin's capabilities.

An idea abandoned or left vague on purpose. He's not a literal father figure.

Still, the Jedi don't (and shouldn't) know about Anakin's personal relationship with Palpatine. How they both see each other, what they talk about, etc...

What's not debatable is that the Council has twelve members and that the final decision is decided based on those twelve Jedi.

It doesn't matter?! The end result may not change, but their actions and attitude does matter. It's what defines them.

That's like saying it wasn't Obi-Wan's decision to kill Darth Maul.

Mace isn't sure about the prophecy. What he's sure about, and there's no room for belief and interpretation, is that he has the cause of all the problems right in front of him and can end it all right there.

No, he doesn't state that. He states that Mace was doing the right thing by arresting him, which he tried to do more than once.

By examples, you mean Obi-Wan blaming himself for Anakin's failures when we as the audience know he had nothing to do with his fall?

It wasn't what Anakin wanted, but it was what he needed.

Even if taking that subjective interpretation, he's still the one pretending Mace has a personal agenda against him when all Mace's did was make/announce rational decisions.

Not again...

Yes, they learn that Dooku is Tyranus and that he's behind it all, but that's pretty late in the war, and they had no reason (or room) to suspect of the clones (who have saved them countless of times by that point).

As for Dooku telling Obi-Wan about the Sith, it's only half of the truth and Dooku has fallen to the dark side, therefore one should be rightfully suspicious of what he says.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm saying that only Luke was in a position to feel compassion for Vader at that point. Had Luke the roles have been reversed, he wouldn't have shown compassion towards Anakin in RotS.

I know what they saw and went through. And I also know what Luke is to Vader and what he didn't went through.

 

This theme is one thing which I think was really well portrayed throughout the six films and which connects to two trilogies nicely.

 

Are they? It is shown in the film that the majority of the Republic are eager to go to war, largely just because the idea of a divided Republic is unacceptable to them. The Republic is well-intentioned but is a flawed and ineffective way of dealing with the Galaxy, it is being set up that it's internal inefficiency is what leads into the formation of an Empire. I can't agree with the view that they aren't, by going to war to prevent others seceding, really asking for a galactically conforming Empire from early on. You are supposed to kind of say "what the?" when the Jedi and Republic lead an army into an invasion of Geonosis. Something, I think quite intentionally, seems off.


When the Senate thinks Amidala has been killed;

SENATOR ASK AAK
How many more Senators will die before this civil strife ends! We must confront these rebels now, and they need an army to do it
AMBASSADOR DARSANA
Why weren't the Jedi able to stop this assassination? We are no longer safe, under their protection.

Senator ORN FREE TAA swings forward in his pod.

ORN FREE TAA
The Republic needs more security now! Before it comes to war.


Seems pretty similar to the arguments in favour of an Empire for security, which happen in the future. Plus it shows they are already losing faith in the Jedi, having expected them to have more reach I think, something I don't think it is shown to be naturally part of the Jedi's duty. I know it is a different era, but I don't think the way the remaining Jedi in the OT do things is unintentionally contrasting. The Jedi really answer only to themselves and the force in the OT, and again, in the PT they are partially dooming themselves by so directly fighting the Republic's battles. It is stated they are shrouded, and the Jedi not seeing where this flawed action will lead them is part of this. Maybe it isn't spelled out to us, but it is what I read when contrasting the two trilogies; Lucas knew what making the Republic so eager for war, and the Jedi going along with it, was implying.

Padme and by extension others in the Republic argue in favour of a peaceful resolution, opposing the use of an army. Palpatine pretends to oppose war and rely on negotiation all the while fanning the hatred to encourage war - "I will not allow this Republic, which has stood for a thousand years, to be split in two." Lucas arguably uses Palpatine being the one to enforce this as a commentary on his own pacifist views.

Plus, look at Padme's advice to the Senate in the deleted scene, and the Senate's reaction;

PADMÉ Less than an hour ago, an
assassination attempt was made
against my life. One of my
bodyguards and six others were
ruthlessly and senselessly
murdered. I was the target but,
more importantly, I believe this
security measure before you, was
the target. I have led the
opposition to build an army... but
there is someone in this body who
will stop at nothing to assure it's
passage...

Many of the SENATORS boo and yell at SENATOR AMIDALA.

PADMÉ (continuing)
I warn you, if you vote to create
this army, war will follow. I
have experienced the misery of war
first-hand; I do not wish to do it
again.

There is sporadic yelling for and against her statements.

PADMÉ Wake up, Senators... you must wake
up! If you offer the separatists
violence, they can only show us
violence in return! Many will
lose their lives. All will lose
their freedom. This decision
could very well destroy the very
foundation of our great Republic.
I pray you do not let fear push
you into a disastrous decision.
Vote down this security measure,
which is nothing less than a
declaration of war! Does anyone
here want that? I cannot believe
they do.

Perhaps, but it is still an aggressive action which starts the war. I'm being repetitive, but Padme speaks for Lucas on this matter I think.
As Anakin slips towards a greater desire for order at any cost in ROTS, Padme tries to reach him...

ANAKIN: Sometimes, I wonder what's happening to the Jedi Order . . . I think this war is destroying the principles of the Republic.
PADME: Have you ever considered that we may be on the wrong side?
ANAKIN: (suspicious) What do you mean?
PADME: What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?
ANAKIN: I don't believe that. And you're sounding like a Separatist!
PADME: Anakin, this war represents a failure to listen . . . Now, you're closer to the Chancellor than anyone. Please, please ask him to stop the fighting and let diplomacy resume.
ANAKIN: (growing angry) Don't ask me to do that, Padme. Make a motion in the Senate, where that kind of a request belongs.

We know that any effort Padme is making in the Senate is becoming meaningless by now, but she says it all with the indication that the Chancellor has the power to end the war without force. The Separatists aren't the real problem.

The Senate are being deceived, but they, like Anakin, are passively letting it happen. "You have allowed this dark Lord to twist your mind." Palpatine essentially takes nothing by force until late in the game - he appears to be giving them what they want.

Is it the voice in ANH? It has no real power beneath the surface by then, and to add further to this view, Palpatine single-handedly dissolves it shortly after the beginning of the OT. Which is implied, is really just a formality.

The Senate is corrupt, their decisions in the film are shown to be increasingly damaging. Palpatine isn't completely responsible for what happens in ROTS, the public's flaws made it happen.

I can't find the quote, but I read it on this forum. It's not word-for-word, but he apparently stated the whole saga was a story of one generation fixing the mistakes of the last.

Seriously? "It is done, then." sounds intentionally final, but Mace doesn't comprehend where this will lead. It is flawed (and direct) approval for what is happening.

True, but tellingly neither party is seeking the other out. They share the same motivation.

It was in TPM and AOTC. They didn't have to choose to go along with it all.
By the time they even sense "A plot to destroy the Jedi." in ROTS it is already too late.

Come on, that is exactly their flawed rationalisation to using him. It is incredibly short-sighted of them. I'm not arguing their intentions weren't sound, but they contributed to their own demise by asking Anakin to do exactly what Palpatine expected them to ask him to do. It is both passively weak to not be more suspicious of Palpatine by now, and needlessly direct to use Anakin as their sole tactic against him.

Fair enough.

It made more sense to send only two Jedi for negotiation at the start of the film. Confronting the first Sith in centuries you'd think would be a higher priority, and is also crucial to prevent war. Obi-Wan got lucky.

I guess.

Not really relevant anyway.

Good call I guess, but my main point with this subject is the Jedi were blind to the majority of everything going on in the PT. They have clarity in the OT.

It was a mistake.

Palpatine suggests Obi-Wan and Anakin to protect her, then the Council decides to send her off-world for safety. How is that nothing to do with the Jedi?

The force and their own intuition (granted, this would be easier in less clouded times).

They should ideally be much more philosophically similar to Qui-Gon, Luke, and Obi-Wan and Yoda in the OT. Yoda stating the Jedi had failed to adapt at the climax of ROTS, and humbling himself relative to Qui-Gon (900 year old Yoda as an apprentice!) is indication of this Imo.

The prophecy is that Anakin will destroy the Sith, and they are doubting that it is true. Anakin's capabilities or opportunity to spy on Palpatine is irrelevant in light of the greater picture. It is kind of a paradox (the target being the Sith Lord Anakin is supposed to kill), and again a poor lack of foresight. But you may argue that in that case Anakin should be the right person to be kept around Palpatine I suppose .

Not literally perhaps, but Ian's comment that the films are about "Fathers and sons" is obviously a reference to this. Palpatine is the closest thing Anakin has ever had to a father at the time he turns. The position gradually slides from Obi-Wan to Palpatine over the AOTC and ROTS era.

I agree, but the symbolic schism between Obi-Wan and Anakin, where Palpatine's and Anakin's views mostly fall in line with each other, is significant.

So the Jedi Council's wisdom should never be brought into question?

Good call.

Obi-Wan was acting in self-defence. Mace had no reason to think Palpatine counted as armed, he "ran out of power" as far as Mace and Anakin were concerned. But I see little reason for us to continue on this particular topic of discussion.

But he can't successfully end it (by prophecy), and Palpatine wouldn't give him the chance if Anakin wasn't going to step in.

Listen to the commentary. He says Mace was going to do the right thing until Palpatine does the lightning attack. He says Mace should have still arrested him, what do you think he was referring to. Why would he say "Mace should have arrested him" if he was just referring to what Mace already attempted?

He trained Anakin for over ten years, how was it not anything to do with him? Look at Qui-Gon expression when Maul stabs him; he is seeing his opportunity to - likely successfully - train Anakin, being lost.

I understand your point of view. But Imo if Anakin was wired differently, I would agree that it was the right advice. It isn't enough for the chosen one, given how psychic Anakin repeatedly turns out to be.

The less passion-based political factors in Anakin's turn shouldn't be overlooked Imo.

But anyway, you are probably right. Anakin was in just the wrong position for Palpatine to capitalise on everyone's mistakes.

From the Jedi's pov, you are completely right.

That seems a little simplistic to me.

That's potentially very debatable. Yoda and Obi-Wan seem to forgive Anakin at the end of the film though, after all.

I personally don't think what Luke does for Anakin at the climax of the film is conditional in any way.

True, it is kind of the fortunate fate in the films that Luke and Vader had that connection. But Lucas would be contradicting himself if he confirmed Yoda and Obi-Wan's decision to kill Anakin in ROTS was the absolute right one.