PT Who Thinks the Prequel Trilogy is Better than the Originals?

I've watched this thread for a good while and I'm not even going to join it as there is no need to but Cryogenic SeventySeven mikeximus very good points.

Also, thanks Heels for letting this conversation continue. Some really good stuff cam out of this.

 

Rian Johnson is directing Episode 8, so it's his show now. He actually has been quite positive towards the PT as it seems like he is a fan of all 6 movies.

I actually think Episode 8 & 9 will be more of a combo of the OT & PT. I think they have time to explore what is going on in the galaxy while still focusing on the Rey vs Ren story.

The book Bloodline that just came really gives alot more perspective towards TFA. Luke & Leia decided never to reveal their heritage even to Kylo Ren. But somehow the Senate finds out that their Darth Vader's kids and she becomes a pariah and is marginalized politically. Kylo Ren finds out while training with Luke and feels betrayed by his parents and he loses his marbles that eventually leads him to Snoke.

I think the underlying theme about the PT is deceit (Anakin & Padme are deceived by Palpatine), while the underlying theme of the OT is hope (Luke & Leia), and the theme of the ST is betrayal (Rey & Ren were betrayed by their parents).

That's why i say atleast see the ST out before you totally judge it cause I think the themes are there.

 

Which could push Han back into smuggling as well.

 

Cryogenic getting wordy at nasty people is one of the sexiest things ever! Those last two pages were pure joy!


JediChipKelly Hey guess what! TFA is awful. 2 our of 5 stars at best. It's a fanfilm, to be classed along with other fanfilms like the Holiday Special. Abrams is 100% a hack, and completely destroyed Star Wars. His relentless bashing of Lucas and the prequels during and after marketing, along with his henchman Simon Pegg, classes him as one of the worst people in the entertainment industry. I'd trust Michael Bay to make a better Star Wars film than ever letter Abrams near it again.

 

Yes yes ... it's all there. Plenty of potential - just don't waste anymore of it on the 'retro movie' thing. Done that now. Shame more of that didn't make it into this film. With regards to the O.P I like all six films equally, maybe sometimes bit's of either more than the other sometimes, but really I don't want to rank or compare I just want as many films as I can like as possible. Tonal differences are a good thing.

So far TFA is a hiccup for me, but I still have six and a bit films, some still only have three, maybe only two if they can't take Ewoks, and even if they like all the ST will eventually catch up to me with six !
However if the other two are more my taste I might have eight ! So I'm comfortable really. I don't do 'better than' - just more !

Even though I loved TPM from the off, it got better as the other films came out - just as Lucas said it would - just a matter of waiting for all the pieces to fall into place. Maybe TFA will improve for me if they deal with the next two well. Who knows. Already I'm taking the better things from it. Anyone who takes this project seriously would realise that a coherent trilogy of trilogies would be the most powerful pay - off, so some unifying 'work- back' using related family themes as suggested JediChipKelly perhaps would be wise to prevent the new stuff just budding off into James Bond conveyor belt land.

In fact that's the only way I can enjoy TFA - all James Bond films have to end with a super villain trying to escape a super complex under attack,with uniformed minions being smacked left and right as the count down ...well...counts down.
That will have to do for now, though thoughts similar to Jarren_Lee-Saber do pass through my head occasionally but I'm done articulating these things now.

 

That was such an insightful and well thought-out review TFA, I'm actually reconsidering....... You're right, TFA is a piece a crap! Your points were so well made I was so blinded in my viewings as TFA should get maybe 1 star!

Tell me more Mr. TPM is 5/5. I want to hear more from the 1 SW fan in the universe who rates TPM at the top of their list!!!!!!!

 

I would very much expect a n00b to think that there is only one person who ranks TPM on top. Go browse the ranking and see yourself proven wrong - again.

 

No offence, but I really hope that's not the theme of the ST. That's a pretty *****y theme, in my opinion. How about, redemption, or reconciliation?

Read back your three themes in story order again. I think it makes more sense then.

It was exactly the thing Lucas was building to. He said the ST was meant to be about compassion and confronting the issues of the past.

Luke takes his "first step into a larger world" on this basis in the OT, but it's really meant to bloom out in the ST. So far, however, we're left waiting. TFA really set the new trilogy back a-ways in this critical regard. Kathleen Kennedy herself more or less admitted as such last year:

Was there anything from the original films they struggled to echo in The Force Awakens? “I think we can’t explore in quite as much detail issues of compassion, the way [Lucas] did in terms of the values of the Jedi,” Kennedy says. “But we’re going to get there, let’s put it that way. In the arc of all three movies, that will increase.”

Source: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/12/star-wars-luke-skywalker-hooked-jj-abrams/2


All eyes are on the next episode to take us in deep. That's one reason, for all my naysaying, I love the ending to TFA. It has a majestic air of healing and promise about it.

Well, perhaps.

I'm still intrigued for Episodes VIII and IX (see above). And TFA wasn't a total wash for me.

So there is still life in Star Wars yet! But I think they needed to be bolder in TFA, and they simply went a conservative road.

Well, thank you, Jarren.

Let's not be too nasty to each other, however.

We're all brought here by the same thing, at the end of the day.

I don't think he's 100% a hack, but I do think he's probably more of a producer, in a lot of ways. He is actually the son of producer parents.

That's funny because how many times have we heard Lucas described thusly? But in Abrams' case, I think there's probably a good deal of truth in it, actually.

TFA is a fun action romp, brings some new textures to the Star Wars universe, and makes for some decent spectacle. But I wouldn't put it in the same league as the former six, no. And the marketing around it revealed some pretty hilarious desperation on Disney's part, in my opinion -- and subsequently played a part in turning me (and various other fans) off the whole thing.

In time, it's possible that I'll warm up to TFA a little more and stop calling out nonsense when I see it. But I won't put a number on it. The situation, at present, just seems to call for some hearty resistance from those left with mixed feelings on the whole thing. Because not everyone was blown away by it or moved to tears (perhaps anger) by Disney's marketing campaign; and that's okay.

Structurally, it's not a bad end.

What I think the deeper problem with TFA is -- if there be one thing -- is how Lucas seemed to be integrating and accounting for more and more psychological issues and motivation engrams in his movies (there is a beautiful geometric scaling from ANH to ROTS, in my opinion), gradually turning the series into an increasingly trenchant character study, and a bizarrely intimate intergalactic chamber drama, only for the makers of TFA to throw a pretty big reset switch, landing us back with the relatively simplistic character vectors of ANH or TESB (but without the former's wit and effervescence and the latter's claw-like grip and laser-eye focus).

Which isn't to say that TFA is quite as simple as those former movies. It has more depth in some ways; especially in its relatively thoughtful treatment of the older characters (well, Han, at least). It almost can't help being freighted with the terrible mythological implications of the former films: their accumulated phantasms and frightening forays into darkness. I've said it before and I'll say it again: TFA is, at once, both the most and the least interesting Star Wars movie yet made. That's what makes it so confounding. It carries with it a lot of baggage. And it doesn't attempt to be a complete retread of any of the former movies. It's an odd creation.

But, sometimes, I think, it is simply too cluttered up, too frenetic, and too rooted in past glories for its own good; while also denying a viewer the chance to really get to know any of its main characters. They do a little dance and that's it. I'm reminded of one of Shakespeare's most famous lines: "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players". In the more straightforward sense of the quote. Their histories are not explained and their traumas are dealt with in a sketchy fashion; and before you know it, here come the credits. It feels like a bit of a ruse.

It might seem easier to see and to say in retrospect, but I think the prequels, and the originals, were off to a better start, both in terms of the world-building and the characters that inhabited those worlds. The pieces were laid out very cleanly -- sculpted like granite. In comparison, TFA is an odd duck, with feet of clay. I, for one, was hoping for more than a hypertensive fairground ride of stormtroopers and TIE Fighters, not to mention a desert planet that looks scarcely any different to Tatooine. I give those as examples. I also hoped for character arcs that made sense, with few shortcuts to knowledge or convenient "awakenings" (despite the title: it's all too neat). There's some colour and vigour to TFA, but all the rough edges have been sanded off, and the throwaway banalities of Lucas' films -- actually the best parts -- were traded for a fast-moving, rapid-fire "homage" to the past. In my opinion, we could have had a better film. But we might have needed the independent sass of Lucas to bring us it.

 

I've been hearing there are issues with bloodline, especially when it comes to timelines.

The book takes place 6 years before the events of TFA, and Ben Solo has not turned yet and has not helped the Knights of Ren destroy the Jedi. This has major implications when it comes too Rey as it is clear in TFA that she is a small child when dropped off on Jakku which would make it 12 to 15 years before TFA...

Even Han Solo says to Rey and Finn that it was a boy that turned on Luke and helped destroy his new Jedi. But at the time of bloodline, with Ben not turning yet, that makes Ben about 24'ish. and not a boy.... and with Rey's abandoning on Jakku not having anything to do with the attack on the Jedi Temple.... well I am sure people here are smart enough to realize the implications...

So yeah, bloodlines isn't going to make things any better...

 

To an old man, a 24 year old guy is a boy. Especially when that guy is the old man's son. Then he'll always be a boy to him.
Frankly, with the way Kylo's behaving, I see him as a boy even at 30 years of age.

And what's the problem with Rey's abandonment not being directly related to the attack on the Jedi Academy?
Is it the whole unresolved mystery box thing?

 

Old man or not, a 24 year old is not a boy. If my father-in-law referred to me as a boy when I married his daughter when I was 24 (which is how old I really was) and he was an older man at 62 I would be insulted. It wouldn't matter because he wouldn't have referred to me as a boy anyway. needing to spin meanings of words is a clear indication of a discrepancy. Old men don't look at 24/25 year olds and refer to them as boys unless they are meaning to insult them or trying to establish dominance over the other man! I have a 21 year old daughter and I sure as hell don't refer to her as a girl, she's an adult, a woman!

As far as Rey, one of the reasons that her sudden mastery of the force, lightsaber, and Beating Kylo would make any sense was the feeling that she was dropped off on Jakku as a child because she was a survivor of the second Jedi purge. Meaning she had training, and her miracle mastery at the end of TFA wasn't really a miracle but repressed memories coming back.

So if she is abandoned on Jakku well before Kylos attack on Lukes temple, well that means the possibilities start to narrow on Rey's heritage and how she learned how do to the things she did. Or were the new Jedi were in the habit of dropping their kids off on desolate worlds for no reason? Or is Rey a random with no Skywalker blood? Which is a deal breaker for me as far as the ST goes. The explanations for Rey's sudden mastery at the end of TFA start to lose a certain amount of logical sense if her being abandoned suddenly can't be attributed to being protected from the second Jedi purge or if she is a random.

Maybe you don't mind the events being separated or that Rey is a random. I do have issue with that!

 

What does that mean, really? Being a random? To me, Rey seems very significant, with her abilities and as of yet unexplained connection to Anakin's lightsaber. In fact, she is suspiciously reminiscent of Anakin in several ways. That doesn't necessarily mean what some would like to believe, but she is linked to him in some significant way.
In my book, that disqualifies her as a "random".

Regarding your feelings on the use of "boy", I get what you're saying, but I say it depends on how and why it's said. The way Han says it doesn't come off as insulting to me. It's more an expression of sorrow, that this young soul, his son, would go and do what he did.
I'm not spinning the word's meaning around. It's actually a straightforward interpretation in my view.

 

I have to say...

I agree with you, LM.

It's all about "points of view". And Star Wars tends to use the word "boy" when young characters with tremendous potential for ruining things -- or bringing peace and justice to the universe -- are referred to by older characters alternately showing affection, contempt, apathy, disappointment, condemnation, and mild condescension. Cases in point:

"I don't think you boys can help."
- Obi-Wan Kenobi to Han and Luke (ANH)

"I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker."
- The Emperor to Darth Vader (TESB)

"He's just a boy, Obi-Wan can no longer help him."
- Darth Vader to The Emperor (TESB)

"That boy was our last hope."
- Obi-Wan to Yoda (TESB)

"The boy you trained, gone he is, consumed by Darth Vader."
- Yoda to Obi-Wan (ROTS)

"Boys, you're both gonna get what I promised."
- Han Solo to rival crime gangs about to murder him (TFA)

And in the Millennium Falcon map scene, it's worth noting that Han is a) talking about someone who would have been the same age as Anakin and Luke when they are referred to in earlier installments with the same term, and b) is presenting a simplified view of things to credulous passengers and also ducking his own pain, while revealing a drop of sadness by using that term at the same time.

On balance, I think to take TFA to task for a term like that, where and when and how it occurs, is being a bit hard on the film (and I've been plenty hard on it), and isn't really acknowledging the traditional use of the term down the stream of the saga. Moreover, as LM has said, it's sort of an age/generational thing. When I transitioned into my thirties a few years ago, younger people started looking, well, a lot younger. Although I'm still pretty youthful myself, I'll have you know! But it's those weird shifts in perspectives that aging brings...

Dare I say it? They did their homework on this one.

It's a scandal!!!

*goes and gets eaten by a rathtar*

 

He has good taste. And he's not the only one.

 

Well, this is the poll in the Saga Section of fans rankings of the 6 SW movies. Plus this is a very Pro-PT SW site, yet the fans still rank TPM & AOTC as the 2 worst!

Episode I: The Phantom Menace 24 vote(s) 4.6%
Episode II: Attack of the Clones 16 vote(s) 3.0%
Episode III: Revenge of the Sith 128 vote(s) 24.4%
* Episode IV: A New Hope 65 vote(s) 12.4%
Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back 210 vote(s) 40.0%
Episode VI: Return of the Jedi 82 vote(s) 15.6%[/quote]

 

Sometimes, I wonder if fans rate things a certain way -- e.g., TESB all the way out at 40% -- "just because".

I don't mean they're being impish or insincere. I think they're genuine; but unconsciously swayed, as we all are, by a multitude of factors, arising from the fact that, broadly conceived, we are social creatures more than we are lone wolves. Hell, this is a discussion forum, after all.

It's painful being a lone wolf (or a Jedi). Who wants to be stuck on an island, even one as roughly beautiful as Skellig Michael Hamill, for more than a few months (probably hours/days)? It's enough to turn a man grey (oh such symbolism!).

I actually find it fascinating to see TPM and AOTC always practically neck-and-neck, and ROTS jutting out impressively in front, sometimes beating out ANH and ROTJ and vying with TESB for top slot (although, above, TESB is comfortably in pole position).

I think the makers of TFA were sensitive to these facts. TFA draws intensely on ROTS. But TPM and AOTC? Not so much. I ask you to consider, for example, the conspicuous presence of Anakin's lightsaber in TFA and which other Star Wars saga films? There others: ROTS, ANH, and TESB. Disney has constructed a quadrilogy within two (three) trilogies. A new quadrilogy. I see you have constructed a new quadrilogy (featuring my lightsaber). Indeed, you are powerful.

In the above poll results, TPM and AOTC combined still can't equal the next lowest: ANH. They barely cross the half-way mark toward ANH's percentage. Although, it must be said, there aren't a great many votes in total -- so any conclusions drawn are tentative.

But look as objectively as you can at TFA and you'll see a coterie of echoes of ROTS. It is referenced and pilfered from quite extensively. And this is truly fascinating; because look which ones Disney is leaving out: TPM, AOTC, and ROTJ. The "Outer Rim" installments. I think we should try this viewing order: ROTS-ANH-TESB-TFA. Luke, in this order, is born, blows up the first Death Star, learns Darth Vader is his father and loses (and then gains) a hand (not to mention his best buddy Han is frozen), and Luke promises to meet up with Chewie and Lando at the rendezvous point on Tatooine. Only, he doesn't make it ("Poe didn't make it"; and neither, alas, does Lando). He disappears and a faux replica of Tatooine -- Jakku -- floods the canvas instead. The film then becomes a search for Luke who has seemingly reneged on his promise. No Jabba, no Sarlacc, no Yoda death, no Ewoks, no redemption of Vader. His mask just shows up crumpled for no apparent reason. Like the saga does a sudden U-turn into weird trash compactor territory. Be honest: Vader's helmet looks smashed, doesn't it? "One thing's for sure: we're all gonna be a lot thinner". Rey excitedly enquires: "This is the Millennium Falcon? You're Han Solo?" Yes. And no. Superpositioning. Or as Han says: "I used to be". Sublime meta moment. Han is still frozen! Or he's become a slowly-melting icicle; become or becoming. Starkiller Base! Confronting the red-sabered (hot/passionate) son! Melting on a cold day. No fridge to save him this time. No fridge needed. Ever since that day in the freezing chamber, Han has been altered. "He will not be permanently damaged". But he is. There is something rueful about the whole mythology which TFA playfully elucidates. I hadn't brought this to conscious realization until just now.

On the Han/frozen thing, it is even weirder than it seems. Before I was Cryogenic, I was Han. No, really. In my mid-teens, just before I called myself "Cryogenic", I assumed the name Han Solo (I don't need to put that one in quotation marks). I even made a computer back-up disc, my first ever back-up disc, and scrawled on the top of it, "Han Solo's Backup Disc, Vol. 1". I really did that. I was such a nerd! (Still am). I just checked and that's what I put. I still have the disc, even though I created it half a lifetime ago. I'm like Kylo Ren: relic collector. Show me again the power of my original enthusiasm and I will let nothing stand in our way... That was when CD-Rs were kind of a new thing. I think TPM had just come out. I was in love with Han, then I forgot I was. I growed up. But growing up, like grewing up, is a terrible affliction. All the silly word play aside, I really had this admiration for Han, and then, over time, it became Jar Jar -- who I actually look at as Han's animal spirit/clone in the prequels. But the Han love is still there. And I think, in some odd way, TFA has reignited it. Which is odd. Because my lookalike in the film kills Han! Or the frozen Han. The cryogenic Han! Perhaps there really is something to the notion that TFA is relighting the torch of the OT; and about ready to hand Star Wars over to the next generation. Maybe it is the first bridging film of the saga. I think I can understand it a little better that way. Go a little softer on it.

Oh, and my other point, my concluding note, before it is lost: Star Wars has a lot of numerical and rhythmic/cyclical charm. You just proved that by citing poll results based on episode numbers. It's all so endearingly weird. Star Wars, nothing but Star Wars...

 

First, this isn't a pro (or anti) PT site. This is a Star Wars forum.

Second, TPM and AotC are not ranked as the worst. The poll is about the favourite movies and from that insignificant universe of people who voted, almost 8% chose one of those two movies as their favourite.

Third, this has nothing to do with my post other than disproving your point.

 

Cryogenic: I'm sold. I'm gonna try that viewing order.

 

In all fairness, those movies normally finish last.

And they should -- finish last!!!

They are the jazzy ringdown.

Sky-che-delic Star Wars. Star Wars in post-coital satisfaction, dreaming skiffy dreams in the Land of Nod.

Seriously, in one of his most intimate comments, Lucas confessed that he innervated his first two prequel outings with a ton of jazz riffs: he chose, in other words, to have a lot of fun.

And if you look up "fun" in the dictionary, you'll find Star Wars there. Or you will in the future.

So choose to look upon it as a back-handed compliment. The universe is functioning as it should.

 

If you dont think this is a site that is populated with a majority of PT fan, then you have your head in the sand. Just like OT.com is populated by a majority of OOT fans. There is nothing wrong with that, but you have to be honest and I don't think you are with yourself.

Plus if ANH is #4 on the overall rankings of fans favorite movies here, it tells me it is populated by more PT fans. Most OT fans I know puts ANH as #1 or #2 as their favorite, so the fact that it sits #4 here on TFN tells me its an overall PT heavy site. But keep believing its not.......

 

What's the point of this? I mean, really? What does anyone have to gain by laughing and rolling their eyes at others' preferences?

 

"If you don't share my baseless opinion, then you have your head in the sand".

Sorry, not feeding that laughable argumentation.

People disagreeing with your baseless claims doesn't make them dishonest.

Another baseless assumption.

Are an insignificant amount of people.

 

It's childish in the extreme.

Some people just want to continue old grudges indefinitely.

 

^this is pretty much exactly my POV. finally watched TFA at home this week (first viewing since Dec theater viewings, third overall). still found it lacking. but since the disappointed "shock" (lol) of my first viewings had passed, I was able to just enjoy the elements I do like ok (BB-8, seeing old Han, etc.), mock the things I don't like with my hubby, and pass the time through the parts that bore me (a lot of the action scenes). Don't think I will be revisiting it much, though. Though I guess that's true of the OT and PT, really. I love them but don't really sit down to rewatch them that often (I hope my account here isn't revoked now that I've confessed that, lol). I didn't even own home copies of them for years and years until I finally bought the blu-rays (though I would always have the old Spike SW marathons playing along in the background whenever they came on TV).

But as far as choosing one existing trilogy as "better" than the other?...Nope, can't do it!