ST "You will never be as strong as Darth Vader!"

Rey revealed this was Kylo Ren's fear. Kylo Ren's force feats, however, seem more powerful than Darth Vader's feats. I have two ways of reconciling this.

(1) Darth Vader used the Force to block Han's plasma bolts in TESB and to shield himself from Luke's lightsaber strike. One could argue these feats indicated Vader was more powerful.

(2) Strength in this context means embracing the dark side.

What do you think?

 

I think it's probably the latter. For most of his life Vader was seen as this unstoppable Dark Side juggernaut crushing Rebels and hunting Jedi and generally being the face of the Dark Side (in public.) Ren on the other hand is still getting backchat from Hux of all people and seems to be mostly seen as a force-wielding terrorist by most of the galaxy.

 

Yeah, it's got nothing to do with power levels. It's about being a towering figure of the dark side.

 

Kylo talks about being pulled to the light. There wasn't much conflict with Vader until the end.

 

Vader got respect and elicited fear. Kylo mostly justs elicits fear.

Also, even on the actual Force powers front, there are some examples where Vader exceeded Kylo. First, Vader Force chokes someone using only his mind, from far away (a different part of a very large ship). We don't see anything at this level from Kylo. Second, Vader casually reads Luke's mind against Luke's will on the DS in ROTJ, from a different part of the room. Kylo has to get right up in someone's face to access their mind using the Force, and he seems to have to really try hard to do it (even with Poe). Third, Vader calmly uses only his mind to pick up heavy objects and throw them at Luke during the Cloud City duel. When Kylo uses telekinesis (such as freezing the blaster bolts in the air), he has to use his hands, and the objects are probably not as hard to move or stop from moving.

 

Jedi don't read minds. They sense emotions. That used to be the case anyway...

 

Let's not ignore, however, that his training isn't nearly as much as the amount Anakin got as a Jedi and then as Vader

We know that, as Ben, he only trained with Luke for a few years at best, and there's really no indication of how effective Snoke's training is. We might see some of that in Episode VIII

This too. It isn't that Vader fully embraced the dark side out of outright desire, but it was because he had nothing left and that was the easiest choice. Kylo Ren on the other hand wants it because he CAN have it, it's an option that isn't meant for him but he wants it anyway

There's a specific emotion for "I secretly have a twin sister and want to keep that information safe"?

 

Every form of love is unique. You don't love a brother like you do a sister. You feel more protective of your sisters. I have many.

Ask yourself, wouldn't Vader have simply extracted the location of the Rebel base in ANH from Leia using the force if he could? What about poor Captain Antilles? Or the many other times such an ability would come in handy?

 

"Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable. It will be some time before we are able to extract any information from her."

Which I take as, although it was not intended at the time, a sign of Leia's Force-sensitivity. And at the time with Antilles, he was so concerned with finding the plans that he killed him before he had a chance to talk

 

So Leia can deflect Darth Vader's mind probe. Leia completely untrained, Vader the chosen one. But Rey, a noob, can read a trained Sith's mind? That's the biggest stretch I've ever heard.

Wait no, "he was so concerned with finding the plans that he killed him before he had a chance to talk." THAT's the biggest stretch I've ever heard. "I'm so concerned with finding the plans I'm going to kill the one guy who can possibly help me find the plans." I didn't realize Vader was such an amateur.

 

According to GL, he stated that Luke and Leia have the same potential as Anakin did before his injuries. Therefore, logically so does Kylo Ren and, assuming she's Luke's daughter like I think, Rey

Rey seems to have some fairly strong instincts by nature. So it wouldn't surprise me if the mind probe worked both ways
(Little note, just want to point out that Kylo Ren is not a Sith, as per Abrams' word)

And I'd believe it. Vader's definitely the temper tantrum type

 

And in ANH, a lightsaber had to be used with 2 hands because they were like heavy swords similar to Excalibur. That is why the fight is slower then other lightsaber fights.

But Lucas/Kershner changed it in ESB in that Vader could wield a saber with one hand to open up the fight.

So let's not pretend major things weren't changed before in SW movies.....

 

If she used the Force to block the mind probe, wouldn't Vader have sensed her ability? I always took it as that she is not weak minded.

 

In my headcanon, it isn't that she's actively resisting it with the Force, of course not knowing she has that ability, but perhaps that Force-sensitives by nature have more resilient minds when it comes to probing and, even if at a subconscious level (therefore making it hard to tell she's doing it) she's able to resist it that way

 

That's some of the finest hampstering I've ever seen. It relies completely on unknown variables and is therefore irrelevant. I mean, there is a whole scary scene with the droid with the needle that existed solely to extract information.

You saying "which I take as, although it was not intended at the time, a sign of Leia's Force-sensitivity." Is nothing more than a retcon given what happened in TFA. In Lucas' saga, the Jedi don't read minds.

It sure would have come in handy had Anakin and Obi-Wan simply extracted information from Zam in AotC instead of yelling at her, don't you agree? It only took Rey a second to not only learn how to do it, but replicate the technique. Surely the Chosen One and one of the most prestigious Jedi could have read her mind in a second? Faster than the time it takes to even ask?

The reason Jedi don't read minds is because it's a lazy plot device. Why have any action at all if everyone can just read each others minds?

 

kylo gets no respect.

 

I'm not arguing that retcons didn't take place. But this particular retcon takes place in TFA. It creates major plot holes, however, so I'm not sure how they thought it was a good move.

 

This is referring to becoming an entity in the form of a spirit, just as obi-wan said to Vader on the death star.

 

Using that logic, maybe there's a unique emotion for "The one-of-a-kind BB unit I own is carrying the map I've been tasked with protecting."

 

Yeah, that's not vague at all. Anyway, first of all, Vader is not a Jedi. So if that's the angle, then... OK. But if you're saying that he doesn't actually read Luke's mind, I don't know how else to explain what he clearly learns; that Luke has a twin sister that Vader didn't know about, and that Luke wants to protect. I realize he doesn't just read every person's mind he comes across, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't do so in this particular case. Or, perhaps, this is something to use to complain about TFA (because Kylo Ren can read thoughts).

 

The "twin" part is what destroys that theory. And if reading emotions can be so specific, the end result is identical to mind reading in any case.

 

I don't see how it is vague and I'm not sure I understand your argument. Luke having a twin ? How else could Luke have a sibling? It would have to be a twin, Padme being dead and all and Vader being fairly certain he didn't conceive more children.

Vader feels the protective love a brother has for a sister. Do you love your girlfriend/wife/partner the same as a sibling? Absolutely not. There are many kinds of love.

And address my other points as well. Don't cherry pick where it suits you.

 

Honestly, that's the most easily explainable part. I'm shocked the great Artoo-Dion can't see that as plain as day. Reading emotions isn't specific. If you can control you feelings, as we hear the Jedi often say, you don't betray your thoughts.

 

Maybe it's a "sister" that he grew up with. You can have siblings that aren't related by blood. Indeed, studies show that sibling-relationships are formed whenever two children are cared for by the same parental figures.

 

You condescend at the beginning of nearly every reply to me, so I think it's quite acceptable. And nice hampstering. It would almost be acceptable if not for all the other points I made which break the mind reading angle entirely.

Edit: Also, it's well known who Luke Skywalker is. They know he doesn't have a known sister.