Saga Point of view - George Lucas was right not to listen to the embittered fans

Very few scenes in these movies do any "static exposition", or are focused on exposition in the first place. A lot don't contain any exposition.

This is just a cliche phrase that's thrown around, just like "lol whole movie about taxes". Well, not phrase, but "inaccurate statement".

So you're being moral again, huh?

After the whole "no. never kill yourself over a partner('s death). bad! disgusting" nonsense in the Padme thread, and "SW should be like deconstructive psycho horror like Vertigo", I'm not particularly interested in debating that aspect - but what ugliness is being beautified here?

I don't even know what you're talking about.
Fiction and escapism glamorises/romanticizes evil all the time and there's not even anything wrong with that, but I've no idea where this is supposed to be happening here.

Domestic abuse? Where? He doesn't abuse her until he chokes her while being EVIL - plus, thinking your wife wants to whack you with the help of your treacherous wizard mentor isn't exactly the typical form of "domestic abuse", in fact, one might even argue the term is no longer well applied.

 

Fair points. It's true that not all scenes have to have a moving camera, etc. I would even agree with your observations about Nolan and JJ with regards to their action scenes and pacing, respectively. I do give Lucas credit for editing and shooting in a way that really allows things to sink in for the audience or for allotting time for some truly contemplative moments (like the Binary sunset).

So while the "walking, talking, shot-reverse-shot, one character turns, etc." technique or the various couch scenes are not inherently lazy, their use in a vast number of dialogue scenes does feel repetitive and a bit uninspired to me.

 

Do you... Understand what your talking about? Lucas isn't glorifying...

Oh what's the point? You got no respect for him and your misunderstand what he was implying


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Soo.... the fireplace looks fancy on its own, it's doable as a set.

Other scenes are written in front of gigantic city windows, so those have to be inserted later....

The scenery isn't there to "compensate for camera angles", and no one was too lazy to build the fireplace set or make it look moody.
Neither is the scenery there to make up for acting or writing.
It's there as a part of the design, if other elements fail then that's their fault.

The camerawork doesn't seem to get more imaginative if there's no greenscreen. Or a less fancy set than fireplace.

That Palpatine scene that you pointed out, starts with them in front of the window, but then they stroll down and only the wall is left. Does the camera suddenly get fancey?


Conclusion: "allowed lazy camera because you can paint in CGI later", doesn't hold up.

No one ever complained about that scene, or was happy there wasn't too much of that sort in the movie.

It's almost as if, as long as the tone of a scene is static, or dialogue focused, or quiet, and this works in the movie, then it's not a flaw - and people started acting like it was after watching RLM.

Now, of course, "we hate the static shots in the preq--- wait.... well ANH was lame too, then"

Okay, what about this still am I supposed to find "uninteresting"?

So in this case, it's the straight angle they're strolling in, but you know what? If I just saw the above still somewhere, I wouldn't be like "well that looks uninteresting" - I'd think "this looks like 2 focused no-nonsense knights/warriors discussing something important in their military base".

The 2nd one has that fake looking background, so that's the first thing I'd notice - not sure if "uninteresting". Unnaturally sterile, perhaps.

So.... isn't all of this kind of an artificial problem? Where I'm supposed to look at a shot, and say "it's uninteresting because it doesn't contain enough angles", even though that's in no shape a natural instinct or reaction?

The body language and face expressions look interesting


Particularly, again, the above one.

LOL, you realize that nothing would've changed had the scenery been a real set, or matte?
The scenes are already designed as taking place in a vast fancy room.


It doesn't seem to matter all too much, however, because the same happens when Palpatine reveals his identity, and they're in his office, which is vast, but not terribly spectacular, and the window's way in the background as well - and it still doesn't come off poorer.




The only question remains is, what are the type of environments in which this kind of stick-op-the-spine strolling around is natural? Vast, fine looking places seem to match, as well as court gardens, seem to fit.

It can be a tiny hallway if there's glass windows with a view on a vast scenery.

Thin hallways seem to call for a faster, more energetic, perhaps "military" walking, which can be seen on the Tentative IV - however, the fancier looking, the more strolling is justified.

Camera angles aren't required - just have them walk faster and with more energy.





Seems like a lot of crucial factors get lost whenever people bring up these points.
"Couldn't you think of anything better other than looking out of windows, or strolling around?" Seems like a high society trope.
"Oh just do A B until scenery gets filled in" "but when there's no scenery, they still do A and B" - hey maybe there's no connection between any of that?

This bit actually looks sensible and nuanced, so /approve.

One thing though - collecting all the similar looking scenes and showing them to be similar, isn't enough for a critique.
There may be a purpose to it, such as showing characters returning to the same situations in changed circumstances.

Equilibrium did this purposefully.


Not quite sure how much this is the case with SW right now - it probably is to some general degree, as that's exactly what's happening, but not sure about the particulars.

 

Kuro That Goodfellas shot is really amazing from a technical point of view. The amount of preparation and coordination it would have taken to pull off must have been staggering. The long continuous shot puts the audience in the same frame of mind as the woman as we are swept along through a dizzying series of back rooms and kitchens. But I also find this kind of camera work to be a bit distracting, to the point that it kind of draws attention to the artifice, that it reminds me that I'm watching a movie, rather than making me feeling like I'm actually there. The part where they go in a giant unnecessary circle through the kitchens also felt a tad excessive to me. It's like a musician who's more interested in performing the most challenging technical showcase than in the musicality itself. Ideally, the camera work should support the story, not distract from it. To be fair though, overall I did think that was a pretty good use of a continuous cut to support the story. But I think thatckind of camera work would feel terribly out of place in a Star Wars movie.

 

Qui-Riv-Brid

You can fly screeching lizards through the vast storytelling gaps and inconsistencies in especially I and II - is this the greatest humanity can aspire to?

Apparently not a consistently greatest storyteller, because in EpII Anakin starts complaining about being held back, even though he's never shown being held back - jarring tell not show case.

....

k

 

You haven't disproven my theory that the technology made his shot compositions lazier. Granted, the camera work is unimaginative for many scenes, not just the green screen ones. But I would say that it's possible his laziness (first brought upon by the new technology) may have taken a hold of him and extended to other scenes as well. Once you start down the lazy path, forever will it dominate your destiny

Like I said, couch scenes or walking-and-talking scenes aren't inherently lazy. That's why nobody complained about it in ANH; it didn't happen all that often. But when they're utilized for a vast number of the dialogue scenes in the PT, that's when we start calling it lazy. And your claim that "No one...was happy there wasn't too much of that sort in the movie" is a bit misleading because that's not the way we think. Things only begin to seem repetitive and lazy when they're used in a....well, repetitive and lazy way. One innocent couch scene in ANH didn't hurt anybody.

I'll admit that they're not uninteresting when looked at in isolation. But when two specific techniques (walking-talking-shot-reverse-shot, couch dialogue scenes) are used over and over again throughout the PT, it begins to feel rather uninspired, visually boring, and lazy.

But that's got nothing to do with the way it was shot.

So you're suggesting that their walking should be.....faster....and more intense?

An alternative is that maybe whatever information Lucas was trying to convey with those walking scenes could've been conveyed with a different type of scene. Like they don't all have to be walking-and-talking scenes. Some of them can. But it was possible to mix it up more. For example, maybe have Anakin fixing his spaceship or something as Obi-Wan is warning him about Palpatine; that at least conveys something to the audience besides the dialogue in question (that Anakin is still handy and good at repairing things). A scene like that has the potential for more interesting camera work than just "A Camera...B Camera...shot, reverse-shot". Remember in the original Star Wars when C-3P0 is talking to Luke about his adventures? I don't remember them walking and talking as 3P0 conveyed this information. Instead, there are various things going on throughout this scene like: Luke playing with this spaceship toy, 3P0 having an oil bath, Luke fixing R2, and Leia's message being played.

At the microscopic level, maybe there's no connection. But at the macroscopic level, I can see Lucas becoming more and more interested with the editing/post-production side of things as the technology progressed. And this shift in interest does have the potential to impact all aspects of his on-set directing because he would have the idea, in a broad sense, that he can use his new tools to make shots look more interesting in his computer. So while he may have not been thinking this on an individual shot-by-shot basis, I think it's very possible that he had an overall shift in focus where he decided not to spend "unnecessary" amounts of time creating interesting shots since his true fascination was with what he would be able to do with them once they were in his computer.

 

Well, I mean, the Bible has storytelling gaps and inconsistencies. That the PT has them doesn't mean it can't theoretically be a great work of art. I mean, it's hardly claiming to the inspired work of god (although to be fair the Bible is by no means the only religious text to have inconsistencies). Even if we're just talking about art, Shakespeare has inconsistencies.

A quick google search even tells me that someone wrote a peer-reviewed paper do to how much criticism Shakespeare's Henry V has received:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21879631

"Shakespeare's character Henry V is infamous, among 20th-century analysts of drama, for his inconsistent disposition. "
As to Anakin being held back...err... did you notice Obi-Wan shutting down him trying to get an investigation going for Padmé? Or "don't do anything without first consulting myself or the Council"? Not saying Obi's necessarily wrong but...he is holding Anakin back (not without reason, mind you).

Agreement! High five!

 

Okay, we're entering the phase of disonnect here - and not on my part I might add.

Why would the fancy giant aristocrat apartment with the fountain next to the couch look lusher than some suburban house with a white trash dad inside it?
IT MUST BE THE MODERN CAMERA.


This exchange is turning into a farce.

That's a different argument - that scenes look similar between each other, rather than similar to a sitcom.

You should compare like to like - as in, Rivendell.

Most of EpIII - people in Rivendell plotting against the king / worried about death prophecies.

Whenever they don't go out there in the field, that is.

1) It's not a "dialogue scene".

2) Theere's smoke on Geonosis, and lava (and perhaps smoke too?) in the air on Mustafar. Lots of sparks, too.

Anyway, smoke isn't part of the conversation here.

 

theMaestro
1) Okay so your "lazy shooting cause of technology" is kind of an assumption / gut feeling. Well, why not really.

2) Are you sure you haven't shifted your thesis from "uninteresting shot" to "only problem is repetitive"?

2a) If the two guys walking towards the camera seem interesting, and they're in an interesting environment, my first instinct isn't to say "oh but the angle isn't interesting" - it doesn't even register.

2c) Context and tone/style have to be taken into account - ANH proceeded to pick up pace and adventure after the cantina scene; there was no room for calm cockpit sitting while getting chased by imperial slugs in a shaking piece of junk, DS was all bickering and running, and there wasn't much talking in the rebel base as well.

The protagonists were casual, easygoing, energetic Americans in shabby environments, this called for more organic body positions, rooms, locations etc. - plus, those guys aren't stereotypically known for just sitting there and talking, and thinking.
They're always doing something, working with tools, working out etc. - have them sit across the table and discuss philosophy, audiences would be running out in droves, it's the most jarring thing in existence.


ROTS is almost diametrically opposed to that: from the beginning to the end, the main characters spend a great deal on Coruscant, posh high society characters in a corresponding environment, plotting conspiracies, hiding their marriage from everybody.

There is "room" for calm talking scenes all throughout, not just in the slow first act.
Characters in a costume drama can also get away with sitting and strolling and talking without doing anything, and audiences just accepting that as natural.

Of course they could've been doing lots of posh things, like brushing hair (already done), eating grapes, or who knows what.

The point is, there's a problem with this comparison, because the parameters are very different, and at the very least, this is something ROTS can "get away with", while ANH couldn't.


2d) So, now comes the question of giving them stuff to do instead of walking up to windows.

I don't got a precise opinion on this right now, but there's this obviously sensible suggestion (which is "taken" by some of the movie scenes, too), and the possibility of those scenes resembling each other on purpose, to draw some kind of line between them.

These are just the, again, parameters to keep in mind when criticizing, or "rewriting" the direction - that, in some cases, there may be value to "sit on the couch calmly" or "walks up to window", and maybe even doing that several times, rather than given something to do, as opposed to it just being the default placeholder before any superior ideas can replace it.


At any rate, at some point I was gonna look through that stuff and see if I can reach some conclusions, but so much for now I guess.




EDIT:
Oh - I was gonna edit this into the previous one, then hit post.

Does sth. like this count as double post by the way? If you're just replying to a different poster, on a different subject?

Seen some others here do that as well, so not sure anymore...

 

Like I said, it's a hypothesis/theory based on a number of factors.

Well, on their own, the walking/talking and couch scenes are very simple types of shots. When a very basic type of technique is utilized over and over again, it gets boring. And lol it's not so much shifting as it is clarifying, as I did concede that there were good points raised about how these types of shots aren't inherently uninteresting/lazy. Simple and basic shot compositions do have their place. But, again, the repetitive usage of these rudimentary techniques does make it seem lazy.

Nor is it mine. It's more of a realization I have after watching these movies over and over that something feels a bit...uninspired.

Context does need to be taken into account. That's why I said that some of these simple types of scenes are okay. But they did not need to be done nearly as often as they were. Remember, the "posh" defense might work if these characters didn't really have anything to do besides plot & scheme. But the reality is that our protagonists are Jedi Knights. There are a lot of situations you can put them in to make the shots more interesting. Even Padme is a Senator. Maybe have her at her desk preparing for some Senate meeting while Anakin lies on the couch pestering her; and then transition both characters to the balcony.

That's a valid point. Some of the couch or walking scenes may indeed have value or real artistic intention behind them. However, more variety would have been appreciated.

By the way, do you ever go by the name of "Nameaux Standardon"?

 

The latter is kind of a part of her "senator" role being underplayed in the movie - by design or negligence, her role is basically just that of the "vulnerable, worried warrior's wife waiting at home".

This is entirely another issue, that was recently "merged" into another Padme thread, and is currently dominated by various types of moral umbridge taking and comparisons to Godfather and Vertigo - so let's not get into that atm.



Now within those confines, one can think of things she could've been doing - doing things like brushing hair, or knitting (lol), or sitting at a long dinner table or whatever, only works in the idyllic scenes, i.e. the beginning, and perhaps the bad "separatist" scene.

That one actually negatively stands out with the awkward way it begins, with them just sitting on the couch and not saying anything for seconds - it desperately called for a different beginning.


So the next one starts with them in bed, he wakes up from the nightmare, walks out of her sight, she follows him and they do the necklace thing. Definitely one of the more cinematic / organic scenes they had.

Some of the scenes in which they, or one of them, are "worried", or "holding on to each other", could've used some more physicality or sensuality, I suppose, instead of just sitting/standing apart and talking.

No idea what occupations either of them could've had in those dramatic scenes, but then again I'm bad at coming up with stuff, so who knows.




The Jedi basically plot and scheme while within their temple, and then go do war stuff when they go out in the field. What could they have been doing? Training? Kind of nah. Meditating? Covered. Sitting around some battle map/strategy hologram? Kind of still the same thing, and was done in one scene I think.

Well, seems like the issue's resolved then - at some later point I'll probably see if I can reach some more concrete conclusions.

 

There are numerous ways the "talking" scenes could've been spiced up:

1.) As mentioned, have Anakin fixing some portion of his ship while Obi-Wan warns him about Palpatine. And then maybe Anakin can get up once Obi-Wan goes "too far".

2.) Maybe have Obi-Wan giving orders to some of the clones, like Commander Cody. Since he's preparing to go on this mission to beat Grievous, there could've been a moment where he's trying to talk to Anakin whilst simultaneously getting the preparations and plans ready for his mission. Like in the middle of the conversation, a clone might interrupt to ask Obi-Wan about what vehicles they should bring....something like that. And then towards the end, have Obi-Wan put the clones on hold to really say something important to Anakin.

3.) Have the environment through which they're walking be a little dynamic. For example, in the Harry Potter movies, the walking-and-talking scenes are done as the students are frantically trying to get to class. Not only are they rushing & walking fast, but the staircases also move, thus adding some layer of intrigue to an otherwise simple dialogue scene. Of course, we don't need moving staircases in Star Wars, but perhaps Obi-Wan and Anakin could be rushing and quickly moving up/down the stairs to make the military/council briefing on time.

4.) With Padme, have her working on "Senate stuff" on her desk whilst Anakin kind of romantically pesters her into coming onto the balcony with him. That would be an opportunity to show that, despite being a wife and future mother, Padme is still very much active in her duties. I think it would only strengthen her character.

 

I think the imo overuse of the shot-reverse shot technique is problematic for a number of reasons:

1) The actors don't interact with their environment, which conveys a sort of disconnect between the characters, and the set or digital environment.
2) The scene conveys little more than what is said by the actors. Like theMaestro said, having a character do something, while exposition is given, can convey different information about the characters, or the environment they're in. Dialogue scenes tend to become boring, which is why many directors apply various techniques to make them more interesting. Add to this that GL applies a matter-of-fact approach to his dialogue scenes, which doesn't help the situation.
3) It's detrimental to a film's flow and pacing, as the film grinds to a halt everytime such a scene appears.

I really believe comparing ANH and the PT in this respect, is comparing apples and oranges. The dialogue scenes in ANH were shot in various, and often interesting, or at least different ways. With the PT I believe GL delibirately used the shot-reverse shot so much, because it's easier to do the digital enhancements in post for such shots, than for a more dynamic approach.

 

I might respond to all the other points later, but there’s one point that I just have to address right now.

Hence atheism.

 

The problem with this approach being that it's what's happening in the foreground that matters. If the characters have no dynamic then it'll be boring no matter how interesting the background is. The settings became an end in themselves, rather than being used to enhance the story.

 

I respect her ideals and belief but I'm sure that's going into a different territory altogether...

Might want to stray from that in such a thread like this...


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I also share PiettsHat thoughts here.

I found it ironic that the complaints towards the PT have now shifted to "boring and lazy shots" while previously, the majority of the complaints were "Lucas focused too much on action scenes, his scenes are too distracting, there's too much things going on, etc..."

 

Good ol' Rick McCallum certainly wasn't describing Starkiller Base!

 

If Rick had his way SKB would've had 200 ships flying in & out, all kinds of alien workmen welding & tinkering on the base & countless snow creatures running around on the surface. Would've been so dense!

 

Of course! Because these things are mutually exclusive, aren't they?

 

Kuro
You do realise during Padme and Anakin's final scene on Mustafar, Padme is essentially saying "renounce the dark side and run away with me, or it's over"?
How does that glorify abuse? Lucas has stated that here she realises Anakin is no longer the man she fell in love with.

And Lucas also commented that what happens to Anakin later on the lavabank is karma for all the things he has done wrong. Anakin turning on Padme is really the last straw for Obi-Wan (and the audience), and I think the metaphor is he is essentially attacking himself, having lost track of what he actually turned for in the first place.

2K-D2
There are scenes in AOTC implying Obi-Wan is holding Anakin back, such as Obi-Wan telling Yoda and Mace (who think Anakin is ready) that Anakin is not ready for his first assignment, and later sternly telling Anakin (as Anakin and Padme leave for Naboo) not to do anything without first consulting the Council. It's thin I admit, but it is implied.

 

Great finding DD, you've successfully contradict the other complaints and arguments about "poor, lazy and boring shots" above!

 

You know me SF. Always here to help!