ST "You will never be as strong as Darth Vader!"

Eh. But Snoke doesn't. When recounting the fall of the Empire, he cites Vader's moment of weakness in an otherwise "exemplary" as to blame for the fall of the Empire. They don't go all Obi-Wan saying Anakin betrayed Vader and killed him or anything like that.

It's pretty unavoidable that Kylo Ren is aware that Vader completely dropped the ball when they were on the verge of victory. To want to live up to Darth Vader and be as stars him is a weird goal. The goal should be to surpass him. And by killing Han, he's already shown that he is not as susceptible as Vader to the temptation of the light side. He feet, but he rejected it. Something Vader did not do.

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I think the implication is that Kylo Ren admires the "best" that Vader was at being the dark side user. And to be fair, up till the very end, he was a model dark sider.

 

Well, it's been explained why Gallius Rax is no fan of Palpatine. Maybe we'll just have to wait and see. If Rex = Snoke we will know why he dislikes Palpatine.

I don't think it's weird to want to live up to your idol, especially when it's a family member. Kylo is simply proud of his family legacy and feels a strong connection to his grandfather. He even shares his most intimate thoughts with him. That kind of connection is strong enough to endure some disappointment. He can definitely understand on some level why Vader failed at the end and sympathise with him, even if he doesn't approve of the outcome.

 

You're not going to be remembered for how great you were up until you killed the Emperor.

I mean, it's fictional, so they can claim whatever they want.

But realistically, nobody is going to try to live up to the great man John Wilkes Booth was, up until he killed the president. You would think that would be an embarrassment to Kylo, something he'd want to redeem his family from. Not praying to this guy that is responsible for the defeat of the Empire.

Kylo is in the same position Vader ways. He is to Vader what Snoke is to Palpatine.

They are building a state in the Empire's image and "finishing" Vader's work.

That Vader betrayed Palpatine and is what caused the fall of the Empire (per Snoke) would cause great shame to someone in an analogous situation in the real life.

If my grandfather was a war hero that went on to go out and open fire into a crowd of civilians. I'm not going to try to be him. I'm going to try and be better than him.

Edit: At the end of the day, Vader is not an important historical character in universe. He is as the Chosen One, and he is as the guy that killed Palpatine. Textbooks would remember him as they remember Akechi Mitsuhide first and foremost as the guy that betrayed Oda Nobunaga. As a Dark Side apprentice, he didn't do a whole lot but hunt down the last of the Jedi, not even completing that task. Snoke tells Kylo that the whole reason they are dealing with Luke is because Vader choked. They are cleaning up his mess.

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Actually, considering that Vader was a military leader, he would more likely to be remembered as the Oda Nobunaga-type of guy, while Palpatine as the shogun figure. Palpatine's Force powers were kept secret and he remained merely as a political/ruler figure throughout. He had no known battlefield accomplishments.
(Nevertheless, it seems that according to Bloodline, Vader killing the Emperor was not even public knowledge.)

But the better analogy is Imperial Japan, in which Palpatine would be Emperor Hirohito, and Tarkin and Vader would be Hideki Tojo and Tomoyuki Yama****a. All of them extremely well known figures and differently worshiped by different nationalist groups in Japan.

Kylo Ren worshiping Vader is not unusual, as Vader would be very well remembered - especially in a post-Empire galaxy where history revisionism and omissions would no longer be a practice. Vader was still the guy who killed the Separatists; he was the guy who "helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi" and he was the man in charge in all military affairs after the Rebellion blew up the Death Star.
For those who worship warriors or military leaders, both Tarkin and Vader would be more celebrated than Palpatine.


Edit: Why the heck is the forums censoring a Japanese name?

 

I use Nobunaga/Mitsuhide because that's the first example that popped into my mind of a similar situation in which a ruler is expanding his territory and is betrayed by a trusted general.

Obviously in a world history book, Nobunaga is a foot note. In my university world history course, he and Toyotomi Hideyoshi both got a single mention as paving the way for the Tokugawa Shogunate. If you read a text on Japanese history, then there names will be more relevant. Mitsuhide would probably be mentioned at that point as being the catalyst for Nobunaga's death by betraying him. He did other stuff in his life, I mean, he was a samurai vassal of Nobunaga and fought in various battles, but really they are really worth mentioning in most texts. He didn't really play a critical part. Him betraying the Lord that was quickly becoming the greatest warlord in Japan was his big significant contribution to Japanese history.

That's pretty much how I feel Vader would be in the context of the Star Wars universe. Yeah he did stuff and yeah, he was bad. But nothing he did was super important. Few things he did would be worth noting in an in-universe history text, for instance.

For one, until Bloodline, it wasn't even common knowledge that Vader was Anakin, so history would regard them differently.

Anakin lifted the occupation of Naboo as a child, and he killed Count Dooku and rescued the Chancellor in a pivotal battle of Coruscant. That he trained Ahsoka, fought on Geonosis, etc. aren't really significant in the grand scheme of things. Significant to the audience as a result of their investment in the characters. But nobody in universe would care who Ahsoka is, or care about Anakin, in particular, being on Geonosis.

Vader would accomplish even less of note. Prior to ANH, he seemed to operate more like the GFFA secret police of the Empire. He helped hunt down Jedi, which was largely mop up duty following Order 66, given that after a meager five years, they're all but gone.A lot of what he did probably wouldn't ever be public knowledge. Around the time of ANH, he seems more known, given Leia's reaction to him. But still, we know he failed to stop the Death Star plans from falling into Rebel hands and failed to protect the Death Star.

Around the time of ESB, he seemed to have risen to a more prominent status and was given command of a large command ship, probably to serve more as a symbol of terror in lieu of the Death Star, but during this time he was looking for Luke.

Then in ROTJ, he really does nothing except bring Luke to Palpatine and get redeemed. The major thing that would be recorded there is that he killed the Emperor, but Snoke implies even that is unknown in universe to all but a few.

Really, there's little to admire, IMO. He didn't accomplish much of note. Other than the fact he existed, there wouldn't be much to say.

Palpatine on the other hand saw the Republic through the Clone Wars. He transformed a 1,000 year Republic into an Empire. He labeled the Jedi enemies of the state following an attempt on his life. He had two death stars constructed. He disbanded the Senate.

I'm not only talking about Vader's power. I'm just saying that compared to Palpatine, he's historically insignificant. Did almost nothing of note EXCEPT kill Palpatine. Yet Kylo's big fear is not living up to Vader's legacy while selectively ignoring Vader's most significant act.

It would be through such tales that Kylo would be familiar with his grandfather, and I find it likely that Luke tried to focus mostly on the good things.

I just feel there's little there to look up to. Vader may be a culturally significant character in the real world, but in universe, he doesn't do a whole lot of note



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Ah, yes... that's too bad. The autofilter is seeing the s, h, i, and t in order and thinking this is a variation of the "S word".

 

Oda Nobunaga is not a *just* a footnote in Japanese history. In world history yes, because his achievements had virtually no impact in the word outside Japan. Likewise, historical figures like Sakamoto Ryoma, Hijikata Toshizo and Saigo Takamori are more well known in Japan than Napoleon Bonaparte, who did more than the previous three combined, but his actions had no impact in Japan.

Hence, if you want to use Nobunaga example, you have to use the geographical context where his actions had an impact, just like when we consider Palpatine and Vader’s actions, we also consider the geographic region where they had an impact (which is the entire galaxy, except maybe the Outer Rim).

And in Japan, Oda Nobunaga is huge, if not THE most popular historical figure in Japan. In truth, there were a lot more political machinations going on in the transition of Momoyama to Edo that put Tokugawa in his position of power, but it’s the battlefield conquests of Nobunaga and Hideyoshi that people celebrate and admire, not the inside job.

Case in point: Hattori Hanzo. Every single Japanese person knows who he is. You probably heard about him from the tons of stories about him, or maybe from Kill Bill. What did he do that made him so famous? I honestly have no idea. I mean, he was famous for being a ninja as well and having like mystical powers and having a secret network of assassins, but I never know what else about him is true or fictional. In truth, people know he wasn’t nearly as important in history as Tokugawa since he was just Tokugawa’s attack dog, yet his popularity in media vastly surpasses Tokugawa. Sounds familiar?

Another example: Date Masamune. He was also one brutal MF, known to be an absolute terror in the battlefield, and part of his reputation came from his famous limiting fighting condition (half-blind), making his skill and achievements even more impressive (sounds familiar?). You go to any tourist activity with famous samurai costumes to try and play, and Date Masamune outfit, sword and helmet is always there. He is so popular that his helmet was THE helmet that inspired Darth Vader’s. Yet, he was also no shogun, and in the grand scheme of things, his accomplishments were probably not that significant. But boy, he is insanely popular.

And, my favorite: Sakamoto Ryoma. This guy is as popular as Oda Nobunaga, even though his accomplishments pale in comparison to any of the prominent figures of the Sengoku period. What did he do? He unified two powerful clans. And a few other things, but that was his big feat. Yeah. He did no ruling. He wasn’t even most important key player in the Meiji Restoration and he died young. Yet he is way more popular and well known than virtually any ruler of Japan, and often cited as the best samurai, best hero, most inspiring figure, yada yada. Go figure.

But I think this is more a question of different cultural perspectives. You don’t seem to comprehended why a warrior would be so worshiped, while the Star Wars saga takes a lot from Japanese culture, where warriors are often romanticized and way more admired than the rulers. In the US and Europe, presidents and kings may make the most popular stories, but in Japan they see more worth in the samurai who does all the dirty work for the man who sits in the throne. Warriors in general have bigger fan following than, really, any ruler of Japan.

And it makes perfect sense for me the same happening in the Star Wars universe, where the overskilled warriors who wield lightsabers are glorified (much like samurai are glorified in Japan). This started right in ANH (“You fought in the Clone Wars?” “Yes I was one a Jedi Knight!”) and continues in TFA (“Woah I thought Luke Skywalker was a myth!”) – I mean, I don’t how many people in the West know the individual names of the pilots who drop the bombs more than they names of the rulers and maybe the generals in charge. In the grand scheme, it was probably Ackbar, with the help of Han/Leia team, that achieved the grand victory in ROTJ, but Luke Skywalker is the guy who became the myth and the glorified warrior. Still makes sense to me, because you know, Star Wars takes a lot from Japan. And I like it.

 

Vader's dialogue with Padme on Mustafar and with Luke on Cloud City shows Vader's goal was for the Skywalker family to rule the galaxy forever. Perhaps that's what Kylo is referring to when he says, "What Vader started"?

 

that and killing jedi.

 

I know that Nobunaga is much more significant in Japanese history, but unless members here are either from Japan, watched Kagemusha, are interested in Japanese history, or played Samurai Warriors, chances are they have no idea who he is.

A lot of those other figures you mentioned are popular because the Sengoku period is heavily romanticized. Personages like Uesugi Kenshin, Takeda Shingen, and Sanada Yukimura become larger than life figures. It's the same thing with the Three Kingdoms period of China where people like Guan Yu are revered, despite that conflict and the rise of the Jin dynasty not really being significant like the Ming, Qing, Han, or Yuan dynasties. But, for whatever reason though, these generals have become culturally revered. But I would say that's more of an anomaly. As there are many more conflicts throughout history where generals wouldn't really get remembered to such an extent. Especially if they are on the losing side.

I highly doubt Vader was romanticized at all by Luke or Leia. He seems to be reviled by virtually everyone except Snoke. And how Snoke would have gotten Kylo to admire Vader is a big question mark. In universe, we've seen him fail more than succeed. Failed to retrieve the Death Star plans, failed to destroy Yavin base, failed to capture the Rebels on Hoth, was defeated at the Battle of Yavin, failed to capture Luke, was weaker than Luke in their second conflict, etc.

That he killed Palpatine is really the only shining thing he did.

And as far as in universe history goes. When Filoni argues that the word "Sith" doesn't really mean anything to anyone, then I'm guessing conflicts really are not romanticized, because given they controller the Galaxy before the Republic, they should be remembered as a major player in galactic history, and Vader should be hated as part of a short lived Sith revival .



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Vader is romanticized by Kylo and the darksiders, much like Luke is romanticized by the rebellion. We do see Vader failing more than winning because we are only seeing the part of history told from the rebels point of view. His feats against the Jedi, against the rebels in Vader Down (apparently also well known), and many others we haven't been told yet, would be certainly more appreciated for those who who like the other side of the story.

 

Dang it. I posted the comment that was here in the wrong thread and I have now reposted the "The Duel In TFA thread here http://boards.theforce.net/posts/53767729/

 

Correct. Vader had his victories in the films, too. In ANH, Vader is the one who put trackers on the Falcon to find the location of the Rebel base. He did the same thing in ESB and Hoth. As a Special Agent, I believe that was his duty. The subsequent failures to blow up Yavin and capture Hoth, respectively, seem to be more failures of the military strategists and generals - Tarkin, Veers, etc. Remember, it was Tarkin who refused to retreat; arguably, that renders the destruction of the DS1 as his fault.

Also, I believe the comics show Palpatine blaming Vader for a failure at the Death Star, but:
A) I don't recall if he was specifically referring to losing the plans, but rather, Vader's failure to retrieve them (Rogue One should enlighten us); and,
B) Either way, Palps is just blaming Vader for it all, because Tarkin isn't around to blame anymore. As a boss, Palps is a real a****** that way.

 

The Vader comics certainly go with B). There's also the fact that Vader had the pilot who blew up the Death Star in his sights, lined up and ready to kill... and he blew it. Obviously not really entirely his fault but logical thinking isn't really a Dark Side thing, spiteful pettiness and rage on the other hand totally are.

 

Hey, Palpy is a Walmart manager!

 

Are you suggesting all Walmart managers are a*******?

 

These aren't really legendary feats.

"My grandfather was a great man, he tracked the Rebels to Yavin IV.... but then lost the Death Star."

"My grandfather was so great, he sniffed out the Rebels on Hoth and destroyed their base there, but Luke, mom and dad all got away..."

"My grandfather fought Luke on the second Death Star... and lost."

Any other victories before the films are generally inconsequential. The Empire was already established. There weren't any wars to speak of. He was on Jedi mop up duty and that was about it. And even then, the Jedi had been dying all throughout The Clone Wars and Order 66. In the Tarkin novel we are told that the Jedi already seem like a distant memory as soon as 5 years after ROTS. Beyond that Vader was essentially just a secret police officer. The Galactic Civil War would have been his time to shine, and he lost a pivotal battle in ANH, being defeated by Han and creating an embarrassing situation for Palpatine by which the weapon that was supposed to allow him to maintain order without the Senate was destroyed. You can blame Tarkin as well, since some of the blame definitely is his, but Vader was supposed to be some Force prodigy and he gets blindsided by a smuggler. Then much of the time between ANH and ESB is tracking down Luke, he captures Han and Leia to get Luke to come to him, yet Leia and Luke escape. A year later they fight again above Endor and Vader is not match for him.

At any big pivotal moment for the Empire Vader seems to either lose or at the very least have the heroes slip through his fingers. In ANH he mentions that he is aware of a signal being broadcast to Leia's ship, and the events leading up to that will be in Rogue One, and while I don't think that bodes well for the heroes of that film, regardless of whether he catches them or not, he fails to prevent the plans from being spent. He spends all of ANH trying to reclaim the plans, fails. Then HE suggests they let the heroes go with the plans to track them to Yavin, something Tarkin was not keen about, and that strategy bites Vader and the Empire in the butt.

You have to figure that Ben did not always worship his grandfather, because he didn't even know Vader was his grandfather until Bloodline. And we don't know much about his child hood. Han comments that there was too much of Vader in him from the start, so he always could have been a bully, but Leia also blames Snoke for what happened, so it's possible he was also a good guy at first.

We don't know what he was told of his grandfather prior to it getting out that Vader was his grandfather. Maybe Luke just pulled an Obi-Wan and said that Anakin Skywalker was a great pilot and hero of The Clone Wars and left it at that. Maybe he fed him the freighter captain story. We have no idea. But I highly doubt Kylo was hearing arbitrary stories about all Vader's evil deeds. Luke would surely gloss over that and focus on his redemption and the good man that he was.

He was with Luke at the time that the truth came out, and so chances are that Luke would have tried to do damage control and would tell him the truth about Vader, and how he was redeemed and ultimately a good guy. We don't know what Ben and Luke's relationship was like though.

There's too many unknowns. But unless Ben truly had a sick mind from the beginning, I doubt he latched onto Vader right away. Chances are it was an embarrassment to him at first (as it should be) and he was probably angry for never having been told.

But it's Snoke that ultimately turns him, and it's probably Snoke that gets him to appreciate Vader. How he does this is unknown. But even in the context of TFA and interviews, Vader's legacy is not stuff that happened in Vader Down, or Rogue One, etc. The thing that Kylo Ren latches onto is Vader's role in hunting down the Jedi. He wants to finish what Vader started. And Abrams describes Vader as being a martyr to the villains and that Vader left work unfinished, and in the novelization Snoke clarifies that it is his failure to kill Luke that left his work unfinished. But again, it's curious that you'd strive to be as strong as the guy that dropped the ball in failing to kill Luke.

Snoke has a very peculiar view of the events of ROTJ, because he seems to disregard the Rebellion as significant. Palpatine outlined a poor strategy in ROTJ, and it's Luke himself that tells Palpatine that his over confidence is his weakness. Han, Leia and the others successfully took out the shield generator. And the fleet successfully led an assault on the Death Star's main reactor with Palpatine and Vader aboard. Luke tells Palpatine at the beginning of the confrontation that they are all going to die together in the destruction of the Death Star.

Yet Snoke seems to think that the Empire did not fail due to poor strategy or overconfidence, and that it was Vader's redemption that was the Empire's downfall. Which goes against what we saw in ROTJ. Redeemed or not, the Death Star was going to be destroyed. The command ship was destroyed. Things probably weren't going to go well for Palpatine or Vader had they managed to escape.

Snoke looks at things under a different lens and seems to think that only the conflict between the Force users was of any significance, and when it comes to Ben I'm sure Snoke probably put ideas in his head to get him to think that Vader was great in some light that I fail to see him ever being. Out of universe he's a cool, iconic character. In universe Palpatine describes him as property and he never really had a significant victory, and since the end of Rogue One ties into the beginning of ANH and we ultimately know what happens to the Death Star, it's not like he's going to have any kind of decisive victory there.

 

TaradosGon: as you acknowledge, no one knows. I listed the victories which we knew. I agree they are not significant. But maybe Kylo is like a kid worshipping baseball players: Babe Ruth (Palpatine) hit all the home runs, but that guy Gehrig hit .353 and drove in 190 runs. I dunno. Maybe not my best post, but no one else has really offered an alternative.

 

I didn't like the way she said it, it just didn't sound good. Maybe she could have said it in another way so it would sound better.

 

She should have borrowed Kylo's helmet to tell him that, just so the modified voice effect would make it mess with Kylo even more.

 

Are you a Walmart manager?

 

No. Just curious.

 

If I hadn't already gotten a headache, I'd probably get it from all the overly pedantic analysis in this thread.

If you look at the big picture, Kylo has enough reasons to worship Vader. Vader was a very powerful Sith Lord who happens to be his grandfather and who has risked his life fighting for the Empire. He has also defeated many powerful opponents like Jedi or recently Dr. Cylo. You could say he is basically an imperial war hero minus the one moment of "sentimentality" that brought him down.

 

I know you weren't talking to me, but my reasoning is very general, broad, simple, and major.

If I look at Kylo as the son of Leia and Han, and the nephew of Luke, and TFA as a continuation of ROTJ, there's just no way he should worship Vader.

That he does is a massive contrivance that destroys the entire movie for me.

"You will never be as strong as Darth Vader!"

Wut? Why should he even want to be? Why is this where we are? What the hell are we even talking about?

It's like another AU, like Abrams' Star Trek, but worse. Much worse.