Saga Point of view - George Lucas was right not to listen to the embittered fans

Well, for the record, he's not the only director or film-maker for having said that he gave up, or now disliked making blockbusters, or didn't like what the big studios were doing, since other people, or the big studios, were now interfering too much in the creative process, letting the creative people with very few flexibility. You only have to take what José Padilha (who now regrets having worked on the latest Robocop), Joss Whedon (The Avengers), David Fincher (who refused to direct Episode VII because he feared to not have enough freedom as a film-maker) and Paul Verhoeven (who recently said: "Being a film-maker in Hollywood, it's too much suffering") said and thought about making block-busters in Hollywood today...

On my side, I've recently been to an independent film festival in Montreal (Fantasia) and saw many movies, that weren't block-busters made by Hollywood, and short-movies, made by unknown people. Despite a few of them which weren't of my taste, there were many that were surprisingly well done and that I've found more interesting and mesmerizing that the great majority of the block-busters (as The Avengers, Batman vs Superman or TFA) we can watch today... It further proves that there are a lot of talented and creative people out there, outside of the Hollywood machine, who can make amazing movies or short movies when they are independent, even if they have very few funding and tools at their disposal...

 

Which doesn't apply to George since he owned the studio & answered to no one. He wasn't talking about interference from studios or anyone else. He was talking about the creative limitations of making movies in an ongoing film series. Also the necessary components of any blockbuster movie that are required to make back the hundreds of millions of dollars they cost. As opposed to cheap experimental films he can go bonkers with without risking a fortune.
I'd also speculate that he may've found the Prequels even more creatively limiting bcs they were a backstory that was already laid out. The broad framework of the story was already known.

 

I don't recall that he said that he disliked working on the prequels because he was limited creatively. How can you speculate that?

 

I added a bit of speculation, but not much. Lucas said he retired from directing blockbuster movies bcs they're not much fun due to lack or experimentation opportunities etc. I'd take it he's referring to the PT rather than ANH 40 years ago. The PT are the only movies he's directed since the 70's.

 

So now he disliked directing the PT...

Well, that should not be surprising when some ugly people have accused him publicly of "having raped their childhood" or "having commited infanticide" for the last 17 years, simply because he wanted to make other movies to an existing franchise...

 

Yes! He said he dislikes directing blockbuster movies & the Prequels are the only blockbuster movies he's ever directed. ANH wasn't a blockbuster movie at the time he was making it.

No, he disliked directing them because...

"You know, it's not much fun. And you can't experiment, you can't do anything. You 'have' to do everything a certain way. I don't like that, I never have — I started out in experimental films and I want to go back to experimental films, but of course, nobody wants to see experimental films."

 

Yeah directors often don't get along with the studio ala Josh Trank.

 

You're very good at interpreting Lucas' words, DD. Maybe I should rely more on you in order to read and understand what he's saying in the future.

So according to you, Lucas hated making the prequels. But the only thing I wonder is how someone could have dedicated almost a decade of his life, spending all his energy, so much effort and money on this huge project and could, at the same time, have hated doing this stuff everyday for many years...

Isn't this a bit inconsistent? I wonder...

 

They are his movies though and the directors knew that going in. They certainly weren't anything that either of them would do themselves and no one would ask them to. So since TESB was not IK's movie and ROTJ was not RM's movie then there is no one else but Lucas who in every creative and business way is the originator of the films.

What's amazing to me is that no matter how much credit Lucas gives to everyone else he brought on board to make the movies (far much too generously overall I would say) there are some people who want to strip him of any credit at all and make it about everyone else but him. There are some who truly seem to believe (against all actual evidence including from from IK and LK themselves) that Lucas had next to nothing to do with TESB and that it was basically their movie.

The control that IK and RM had over that was limited to specific portions of how things would actually work on the screen. Important of course but all sorts of people who didn't have the title of director did all sorts of things that contributed to all of the movies. It still has to start somewhere and then circle around back to the beginning and be given a final approval.

The characters, story and the entire situation is basically the same as set out from Lucas who was entirely involved.

No Lucas then TESB as well know it doesn't at all exist because someone else would come up with an entirely different movie that would look a lot like ANH one would think. A typical sequel/remake.

No IK or anyone else besides Luca then TESB exists not just as we know it now of course but it's still another version of the same story, with characters and settings et all.

Which is exactly what various parts of the film are actually like. What that references is how he wanted to match the kind of energy that ANH had in character pacing which TESB doesn't have for various scenes. This is the key difference between GL and IK at this time in terms of the "slower" scenes. GL liked to set the pace in the edit rather than set it on the set. IK as he says basically "edited" his cut on the set which is why he took so long to shoot because he was doing the edit during photography and constantly changing his mind about the set-ups.

I don't understand the comparison that would be RM to IK. That doesn't work. RM is compared to GK (except he was unable to cope with the productions and so really for ANH Lucas had to take over and for TESB he was officially replaced).

The whole "challenging" on stories decisions isn't the most applicable here either. These challenges as such were not really story based but presentation of story based which is really everyday normal movie-making.

Here is the story that was "challenged"












So their "challenges" didn't go much anywhere in the way it seems some people these things work.

The biggest difference for TESB in terms of IK compared to RM on ROTJ was that Lucas was in control for ROTJ's edit. IK's methods were not able to be manipulated in post the same way for stretches of the movie due to the on set edit that IK used.

Erm... by himself!

That's like saying anything anyone ever does is limited because of what they did themselves!

If Lucas stuck to the backstory that others wanted him to then it really would have been limiting.

As the whole point of this thread shows is that he didn't do that and was able to do things in every aspect of the movies that no one saw coming.

The entire character of Anakin was one that was easily the most challenging aspect that ever will likely be seen in SW ever again.

 

many of the best films ever came out of unhappy / difficult productions , it's especially hard if you're writing and directing and producing .

Lucas has always been hard on himself , I think you're misunderstanding him , making these movies is a love/hate thing , the creative process is something which is enormous fun but productions of this size just eat up your life and are a real strain .

.

 

No matter which way you look at it, the two most acclaimed entries in the series, ANH and TESB, were created under very different circumstances, than any of the others in the series, and I believe this creative process is a large part of their DNA. It's magic in a bottle, crafted by a unique combination of talent, spearheaded by a young and ambitious GL, and IMO nobody since has been able to recapture that magic.

 

Disagree completely with the last one. The context is right and shows so much about Yoda's character as master and teacher.
Actually the most quotable lines in the Saga (not only in PT) are the least 'realistic' ones, i.e. those which would sound strange in a real life conversation. Also, PT is the past, so the dialogue should sound even more ‘posh’. In OT only the ‘relicts’ of the past, i.e. Obi Wan, Vader and the Emperor talk like that.
I don't know why so much people forget the simple fact that SW is not a sci fi franchise but a space OPERA. If its dialogue is not melodramatic, then why is a space opera anyway?
TFA tries not to be that, so no quotable lines. Except maybe, "Droid, please"

 

The problem with the last line, is that what the child says, is completely obvious to anyone with half a brain, and Yoda treats it like some genius conclusion only the unspoiled mind of a child could figure out.

 

It think it is supposed to show that the Jedi Order has become too sure of themselves, the unbiased mind of a kid is needed to see past their own preconceptions.

 

First, it sounds like confirmation to me: a confirmation to an action that Yoda already did. Why on Earth should he ask the little children about a missing planet that no one could ever find: nor the archive computer, nor Obi Wan himself? To encourage them to think about unusual themes, of course, but in this context this is not enough as argument (Obi Wan seeks help and the task is indeed to help him). Because if the gravitation theory was enough proof for Obi Wan, why should he go to Yoda to seek help?
The problem is, that exactly the unspoiled child could conclude with certainity that there was a planet there no matter that it is impossible to erase something from the archives (or at least , according to the words of Obi Wan himself ). Obi Wan didn't believe, al least not completely, to Yokasta ( the planet doesn’t exist as it is absent from the archives) but if erasing information from the archives is impossible why Kamino does not appear anywhere (except in Dexter memories ) So Obi Wan couldn’t just go out into the blue to seek for a non-existent planet, he needed a council. And he received it by the mouth of the innocents.
Apparently, you also ignore the context. Obi Wan is exceptional Jedi, who relies on his intelligence and combinative thinking. But he couldn't resolve the Kamino mystery without Dex's information (i.e. everyday wisdom) and without children confirmation (innocent thinking): unusual sources of help, if I could say so. So the contrast is obvious. First he goes to the analysis droids (skipped as scene in the movie, but mentioned by Obi Wan latter), i.e. the rational, scientific analysis fails so he seeks the help of the opposite one: the common sense and the everyday wisdom of an ordinary citizen. (the deliberately chosen ordinary retro look of the diner is part of the mentioned contrast).
Next: a competent librarian fail to find the location, the children provide the solution. Arrogance vs. innocence. AOTC is full with these little but significant contrast scenes that make it look Hegelian, I would say, dialectic.Too bad that many fans don't notice it, or just ignore it.

 

Well actually it came from both of them as from Lucas' early drafts he brought LK in to write the further drafts that Lucas then would rewrite then LK would rework those and so on.

Honestly in all the years I have been talking with so many fans (outside of message boards like these or uber-fan people like us through the media) about Star Wars just about the last thing I have ever heard is that people are amazed by the dialogue of TESB or any of the movies. If anything it's quite the opposite where they recognize how it's a largely out of step with the times delivery. They don't mind it as such but when I tell them about how some serious hard core fans wax poetically over it they often have a good laugh are ask if I am joking. If anything the absurdity of the dialogue is one of the draws in saying it.

Well I've never read or even seen any versions of either Lucas' draft or anything but the unused LB script and the shooting script which is apparently the "4th" draft or an approximation of it.

As seen from the summary of the same the story is basically the same shape from the first story and draft.

Where exactly did you find these scripts? I have been looking for them but have never once seen them. All the drafts of ANH are around even the just before shooting draft where Obi-Wan escapes the Death Star but after that there isn't much for any of the movies. I've love to see that draft of The Beginning but all we have is a summary.

Lacking nuance?



The PT is ALL about subtle shading between the spoken dialogue and it's surface and beneath the surface meaning which juxtaposes the story.

Let's compare LK's SW work without Lucas from TFA to Lucas' work in the PT without LK. The PT dialogue is packed with nuance, detail, and everything else that some people marvel so much at in TESB in particular while LK's TFA work is grade school in comparison.

For one Star Wars was never about conversations between "real" people in the first place. If that was the goal then all the movies fail pretty miserably. Therefore that was not the goal. The goal was movie characters having movie conversations. TFA has many good points (mostly lifted from Lucas in the first place) but the overall dialogue is not one of them. It's stuck between JJ not wanting the characters to say anything that could give any outright motivations and history to what is going on so as to not lock it down and create the "mystery" that overwhelms JJ's work and then having to try to still impart something. They also wanted it to be more "modern" which Star Wars never was but also be classic SW so it gets shifts in tonality that are an uneasy in-between.

Best for him that he didn't because then all of the same people who praise him now would be ragging on him for doing such a "terrible" job on the prequels in addition to those who aren't exactly happy with what he did on TFA.

Either that or they would have to admit to themselves that Lucas actually had a lot more to do with the movies than they can admit to themselves now.

I don't know. It's hard to say as for those people they constantly shift the story to suit what it is they want to say at any given time.

For myself it's real easy. The scripts for all the movies are terrific because that is what Lucas wanted and did and executed.

Another point on this point which I always find perplexing.

The "broad" framework of the story created during TESB was largely found in ROTS with TPM and AOTC having very little of that so Lucas had to create those mostly from the ground up.

So from a creative standpoint ROTS was the most "limiting" in that sense.

What that even really means I don't know as it's well documented the incredible creative drive Lucas had to make the movie which is THE core story of all of Star Wars.

This goes back to the entire inception of this thread. Lucas made TPM a prologue story, AOTC a prelude story and then got to the core story in ROTS.

What some people wanted was to get to the core story a lot faster or have tales of the Clone Wars in there.

This is exactly what probably anyone else ever would have done in the first place. Get a teenage Anakin into the Jedi Order and fight the Clone Wars in movie 1, have him get married and become Vader by movie 2 then movie 3 is hunting down Jedi.

Thing is that isn't what Lucas wanted to do or was at all interested in doing.

Because ROTS conformed more to what certain people wanted then it was the best of the PT for them due to that.

Not that different as for both of them it really all started from the same point. The mind boggling imagination of George Lucas. He did things that no one else could see or imagine and they still can't

He created Star Wars and set a template that anyone else but himself would follow. As we see with TFA and Rogue One they are defined by what Lucas did 4 years ago. No one else but Lucas could then turn around and say. 'Well that was all well and fine but actually there is another way to do Star Wars and in fact it's more like what I always wanted to do in the first place.'

I think ROTJ, TPM, AOTC and ROTS are the exact same magic. So he didn't recapture it because he never lost it in the first place.

 

That's the point. The genius of the conclusion is its simplicity.

Not unspoiled mind, but simple mind. Yoda calls it "uncluttered" in the script.

Obi-Wan, as an adult, is thinking of the problem as complex, to the point of being unable to see what's obviously right in front of him.

The mystery of the saber dart is not unlike the political situation in the prequels, in that there are a lot of strange and confusing connections and leads, people and places involved that shouldn't be, and things sorta turned upside down, inverted. It's so confusing that seemingly damning evidence is overlooked and disbelieved.

Children are more simple and direct, and see a situation clearly for what it is.

If you compare the two, you could say that this is why the Jedi don't see Palpatine for what he is until it's too late...when maybe a child, or a more simple mind, someone with a clear mind not cluttered by political complexities, would have. Or maybe a child or simple mind would have connected the clones and Jango to Dooku and the Sith, and avoided the clones.

The Jedi are too caught up and confused by the very strange, very complex situation they're in, and like Obi-Wan with Kamino, just can't quite put their finger on the truth.


It's like a puzzle that has a really easy answer, but you go into it thinking it's something complex, because it's a puzzle. You take the wrong approach. You ever have that happen to you? "Oh, duh, I shoulda saw that."

Later, when Obi-Wan checks in from Kamino.

Yoda: Do not assume anything Obi-Wan. Clear your mind must be if you are to discover the real villains behind this plot.

For Jocasta, yes. She's an obviously arrogant fool.

For Obi-Wan (and Jedi like him), I think it's just that he's tricked himself into thinking it's more complex than it is. No, no, it can't be that simple, it must be something more than that. He's trying to unravel some great mystery, when it's not one. All he needs to do is grab the string and pull.

So, for Obi-Wan, bias and preconception, yes. Overconfidence, no.

The only problem is, Dex's info is nowhere near every day wisdom. Not even close.

His knowledge is actually very special, it's downright esoteric. There's a reason he had to go to Dex, and not just stop the first person on the street. He had to go to Dex specifically, because Dex knows about such things. Dex is not an ordinary citizen in this respect, and his "wisdom" is not every day, or even wisdom at all...it's more knowledge.

The droids fail because they "only focus on symbols", so they don't look at the "cuts on the side" that give it away. Obi-Wan follows it up with "if droids could think".

The idea is that the droids lack common sense, and their search is the kind a computer would make, overlooking something that would be obvious to a person with knowledge on the subject. This could also apply to the Jedi in the prequels...they lack common sense, and are unable to think, because they're too reliant, too focused, on the Force for answers.

It's...not a perfect contrast between knowledge and wisdom...but it does the job well enough, I suppose.

 

It's good to see some positive opinions about the Prequel scripts. Unfortunately the writing was a chief criticism of those movies & they're full of notorious dialogue. The scripts were one of, if not the no1 criticism of the Prequels. Instead of receiving an Oscar nomination for Best Screenplay as he did for ANH, Lucas got consecutive Worst Screenplay noms at the Razzies (winning for AotC). We're constantly finding new plotholes & scenarios in those scripts that make little sense. For the most part it seems to be a commonly held belief that they're quite poorly written.

That's fine but the PT even fails to consistently achieve that. Often the dialogue readings appear as actors awkwardly reading lines, rather than characters speaking with each other. As many of the PT cast have observed. They've acknowledged their delivery was often wooden, flat & unconvincing.

They're very easy to interpret & understand. He speaks in clear English. It's those who don't like the fact that he didn't enjoy making SW movies that seem to be having trouble. They want to spin his very clear thoughts & feelings in other directions.

It's not according to me, it's according to him. How many times must we go over this? He said...

"I'm not having fun. I smile a lot because if I don't everyone gets depressed. But I'd rather be home in bed watching television. I'm only doing this because I started it and now I have to finish it. The next trilogy will be all someone else!"

“I’ve retired from directing,” Lucas says [in a memo regarding finding a director for Empire]. “If I directed Empire then I’d have to direct the next one and the next for the rest of my life. I’ve never really liked directing. I became a director because I didn’t like directors telling me how to edit, and I became a writer because I had to write something in order to be able to direct something. So I did everything out of necessity, but what I really like is editing.”

“Writing has never been something I have enjoyed, and so, ultimately, on the second film I hired Leigh Brackett.

Then there's this from John Milius one of his best friends who he gave some of the profits of ANH to, just for his support.

Here is the most positive thing I've read Lucas say about the directing or writing process:
“Faced with the situation that somebody had to step in and do a rewrite, I was forced to write the second draft of this screenplay (of ESB). But I found it much easier than I’d expected, almost enjoyable. It still took me three months to do, but that’s a lot different from two years. I also had the advantage of Larry Kasdan coming in later to do a rewrite and fix it up.”

Just last year he said he's retired from directing blockbuster movies because...

"You know, it's not much fun. And you can't experiment, you can't do anything. You 'have' to do everything a certain way. I don't like that, I never have — I started out in experimental films and I want to go back to experimental films, but of course, nobody wants to see experimental films."

The Prequels are the only blockbuster movies he's ever directed. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes levels of deduction to realise he didn't find making them "much fun".

You're describing most directors, who love their job despite the challenges. Lucas isn't like that. According to him he doesn't like the two roles of writing & directing. At all. Probably why he avoided them completely from 1979-1999 & since 2005. In the last 40 years he's only directed the 3 Prequel movies. Anyone getting the hint that he's not a big fan of directing yet?

 

Believe whatever you want DD, you're free to do so... However, I don't know why you're taking his quotes without taking into consideration the context in which he says them and then build up such ridiculous assumptions as this one: "Lucas hated making the prequels"... Like, yeah, because people are always willing to do and spent so much effort and resources into what they hate to do the most in their lives...

EDIT: Oh, but wait! Even if Lucas was hating making the prequels, he still knew that he would make an unbelievable fortune with them after. Yeah, because Lucas was only interested in money! That's why he made the prequels and hated doing such a job. Money was Lucas' only motivation when he decided to be a film-maker.

Here, I've managed to solve that great mystery with this typical comment from PT detractors!

 

Er...they were your words SF, not mine. Didn't say that once.

 

It doesn't take either Sherlock Holmes levels of deduction to see that there isn't a huge difference between "directing himself a movie", and "making himself a movie"...

 

Think of it this way. Imagine he's a student in school who likes getting good grades. However, getting good grades requires a lot of studying. So while a student may enjoy getting an A, he may think that the process of studying is miserable. Now, if we apply this analogy to Lucas, he was passionate about having the SW prequels become actual movies. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he was having a blast during the entire process. He does like editing, so maybe he enjoyed that part. But the actual directing of the movies is something that he doesn't like as much; but it's necessary if his movies are to get made.

 

Agreed, & as he explains he found directing blockbuster movies inhibiting & "not much fun" in terms of experimentation. The only blockbuster movies he's directed have been the PT. ANH was experimental bcs it was the first of its kind. Maybe he's referring to the compulsory action scenes, fights, chase scenes & climactic lightsaber battles that he "had" to put in every one of the subsequent SW movies he directed.

 

No, he certainly did not have a blast during the entire process, I'm conscious about this, since I already work in engineering, which is an even harder domain of work than film-making. I do not always have a blast when I'm an engineer. But generally, if you've decided to be in such a position and to do this, you have to like what you're doing. Don't think that I don't know what I'm talking about...

And I think that gezvader28 has already answered to that:

 

Yes, you have to like what you're doing. But in Lucas' case, he has stated that he likes editing and he likes Star Wars. I'd say those two alone are enough for him to put up with the "directing" aspect of it. But it's curious that from 1977-2005, he only directed 4 films: all Star Wars movies. You'd think that if he loved directing so much, he would have.....you know, actually directed more movies? The excuse for post-2005 is that the harsh critics drove him away. But what's the excuse for 1977-1999?

I think it's time to face reality. Lucas doesn't enjoy the directing process so much. It's not a big deal. That's not even a knock on Lucas. It's simply a comment on what he enjoys and what he doesn't enjoy. And all evidence seems to indicate that he doesn't enjoy directing. Evidence ranging from his directorial resume to actual quotes from Lucas have been provided. Directing just doesn't seem to be his passion. He loves editing and Star Wars though.