PT What do people mean when they say the Prequels lack 'heart and soul'?

Someone who isn't keen on reading a giant wall of text isn't necessarily a simpleton Cryo. Alot of people read this stuff on their phone & on the run. As for me, I'm looking fwd to reading your post. I've printed it out & will take it on my next long-haul flight.

Just kidding! I prefer movies on planes.

 

Don't join our Confederacy of Two. I hear it's full of Donuts. (How many people does it take to constitute a confederacy, btw? I only have 10 fingers and I can't see my toes.)

 

Not sure, just wondering what's a less complimentary label. Simpleton or muppet?

 

Muppet. As long as it's not a CGI muppet!

 

I don't follow. Anyone who seriously reads or just notices my stuff would be aware I craft posts -- and paragraphs -- of varying lengths. Sometimes long, sometimes short. That said, trying to add a bit of substance, or broach a new subject, anterior to a main subject, sometimes requires a bit more investment by the writer and the reader. I don't consider it my fault if other people can't be bothered to invest in what I have to say. I write what I do, and the way I do, because it's fun. At the end of the day, like Lucas, people either enjoy my posts or they don't.

Some of us don't just post to troll prequel fans and puff up our post counts.

We could play a game, though. We could add up every single word you've written to this thread, and every single word I've written, and I bet you you'd still have more.

Then there are all those pages you burned through in other threads arguing about a hangar. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

 

^ Post was too long Cryo. We simpletons can't get through all of that

Anyway I suggest we quickly move on from this kind of good-natured, kind of not bit of banter.

 

Of course. Not sure why you involved yourself in it, anyway.

 

Bcs I didn't have time to get through your post. Therefore I took interest in your simpleton jibe. Moving on...

 

Bloviating could be an olympic sport. Just saying! And yeah, happy to end the digression and go back to ignoring/skimming unwieldy paragraphs that might hide gems in the rough.

If the goal is to persuade others to your perspective, that format really is just as ineffective as the recent back and forth banter, and insults both subtle and overt.

 

Well, that makes sense.

 

I forgot to mention I loved this bit. I heard it in JK Simmons' voice from Spider-Man.

 

Yes, it's a Spider-Man quote.

BTW, that distinction only applies in law.

 

I just said that... hence my reference to the actor who played JJJ... It was like the only decent blockbuster film to come out in May 2002, btw! A definite highlight of the year and decade! After 9/11 people were yearning for something to tap into the zeitgeist, to lift us up from the Dark Times we were living in and give us a sense of shared purpose and A New Hope! The world needed a symbol, a hero that resonated with us, and Spidey was a reaffirmation of our spirit!

(Amusingly enough, one of the worst Spider-Man stories ever written was The Clone Saga. Coincidence? I think not!)

Oh, you're a lawyer! Suddenly the walls of text make sense!

 

The salient fact is, it was Darth Downunder's attempt to be cute. He likes trying to catch people out any way he can.

Sadly, he's so hung up on flaws, that, well...I don't need to mention that little hangar obsession of his again.

Well, at least your evident chiding of things I've recently said about those particular movies reveals that you do read my posts, after all.

Oh, my sides. You're a basher who ranks all the prequels at the bottom of his list, which he proudly displays in his signature.

That definitely explains why you're here.

 

Not quite. In fact, I'm still working on positive-only reviews/impressions of the PT through a rewatch, but that process has recently been sidelined by the new Deus Ex game (almost finished with it) and now Luke Cage on Netflix (halfway through the season). I'm not expecting to have long-held observations or opinions of the PT to change, but I am hoping to glean some joy from the process.

You'll also notice I currently rank TFA above the OT. I guess that makes me an OT basher too? (Btw, I could make a pretty long list of problems I have with TFA too... it may be my favorite but I'm not blind to the flaws and issues present in that film either.)

Wait, you mentioned Spider-Man? In this thread or somewhere else? I definitely missed that in the skimming. I assumed he just quoted that film because the line fit the response to slander. Were you complimentary about them? No wait, you said chidings. So, I think I'll pass on trying to go back and read on it.

Ah well.

 

It means, in short, you're saying the prequels are "lesser" to you; the least of the saga. And you're no anomaly in that regard. Which makes your presence on this forum, in light of you attacking a long post of mine, sticking up for the prequels, questionable. Well, as questionable as every other basher that's made this place their home, anyway.

I'll try not to lose any sleep over it.

 

You continue to push this idea that the PT was a) somehow filmed entirely on green screens, and b) that this was somehow a bad thing.

People have been acting against nothing for centuries. See the entire history of theatre for proof of that.

And the PT uses techniques no different to any other major movie. Do you think the Marvel actors are struggling to emote even though they can't see Iron Man's suit at all? Or the Hulk? Or how about Lord of the Rings, where the Dead Marshes was a standing section in a car park. How did those actors ever emote properly!?

This also ignores every scene not filmed on a green screen, which are the vast majority (except for Obi-Wan in AOTC and ROTS, who recieved much less criticism than say, Hayden, who spent hardly any time on green screen sets).

So the actor who spent the most time was the least criticised, while the one who spent the most time on physical sets was most criticised. I think there's a small flaw in your reasoning there.

 

They received clear direction from a director who worked well with actors.
It pays to actually read the post you're replying to.

Well that actor has criticized the excessive work with green screen more than any other PT actor. And has had several subtle dogs at Lucas' (lack of) direction.

 

Agree. I think the melancholic mood of the prequels is obvious, moreover, natural. They tell a story of decay and falling, after all. Can it be optimistic and victorious? But melancholy is not just sadness, it is something like doomed sadness, slow falling... And here it comes the other problematic word: slow (or maybe too slow). The pace of the prequels is slow, is not a war-type dynamic pace of the OT (but I should say even OT looks slow compared to the contemporary blockbasters). I could call it western movie type. Because in the westerns (and especially in Sergio Leone‘s movies) there are gun fights, chases etc. but the overall pace of the movies is slow. I think they are one of the obvious Lucas‘ inspirations.

BTW, Lost in translation is great movie. I like it very much for different reasons but it is indeed naturally melancholic as PT.

 

My two cents,

I wouldn't say the PT lack heart or soul.
But to me, some of the characters came across as cold, distant, unemotional and uncaring.
To me, this made it seem that they didn't care about what was going or about each other.
And if the characters IN a film don't care, why should I as the audience care.
And it also lessened the stakes, if the characters seem only vaguely interested in doing something then it doesn't seem that important.

This was mostly a problem for me in TPM and it made my watching of that film rather passive.
I wasn't engaged, I wasn't involved, I was just passively watching stuff happening.
Many of the Jedi characters acted like this, at least to me.

Not all, Qui-Gon had some very nice scenes with Shmi, most esp when they said goodbye.
That scene had genuine warmth in it and to me it seemed like the two cared about each other.
And it was also a time where I felt that it was two characters talking to each other.
Far too often, to me, the characters are less talking to each other and more making grand sounding speeches to each other.

Now I know the defense that will come, "the characters were SUPPOSED to be reserved, distant and unemotional. They are Jedi or Royalty or Politicians."
First, if I watch a film and find it boring, if someone defends the film by saying "It was supposed to be boring." that doesn't make it any better.
Second, even reserved characters can show that they have emotions even if they don't act on them. Take Vulcans in Star Trek. They are logical people that control their feelings and try not to act on them. But good actors, like the late, great Nimoy, could do that and still show that there was feelings there. Less good actors spoke the lines flat and wooden and their characters seemed less animate than road-kill.
To me, the acting in TPM was at times poor and the characters came across as dull, flat, wooden and uninteresting rather than reserved and formal.

So I can see what Lucas was going for but to me, he didn't pull it off.

Same with the romance in AotC. I get that he was going for more flowery and ornate dialogue and that the characters are awkward. But again, the acting and directing didn't work for me. And so the romance came across as fake and forced and the awkwardness was more about the actors struggling to say their lines that the emotion involved.

Shakespeare is at times mentioned and that the dialogue in the PT or OT isn't Shakespeare and the like.
Shakesperian dialogue is a two edged sword, if you do it very well, it can be magnificent. If you do it badly, it can be awful and more annoying than "regular" dialogue done badly.
The issue is that if the writer/director wants ornate, flowery dialogue then he/she has to make sure that the actors can say the lines and sound like they mean them. Which Lucas didn't always accomplish in the PT, at least to me.

To sum up, I can sort of see why this complaint is made. Some of the characters are at times, cold and distant. Some of the emotion that is on display feels at times fake or forced.

The films are supposed to be a tragedy, so plenty of emotions there. The downer ending and sadness through out is also ripe for drama and emotion.
Anakin vs Obi-Wan, this is great drama, two best friends, teacher and student, fight to the death. But to me, the only film that showed any friendship between them was RotS. And thus the drama was reduced.

@Tonyg

I don't think I agree.
To me, RotS has to do a lot over the course of the film and if anything, it feels rushed.
AotC also at times feels rushed, lost of stuff that could have been set up in TPM are quickly introduced and some potentially interesting things were underdeveloped.
And speaking of AotC, Lucas inserted the factory chase because he felt the movie was slowing down. And how many lightsaber fights are there in Rots?

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Digs, not dogs! . No dogs involved, as far as I know.

 

Impostors will attack; black soldiers will appear out of the nothingness; and the sons shall inherit the sins of their fathers.

I don't really see how - the so called "stiff" mannerism are due to them being zen monks and stuff; Mace Windu is kind of an angry guy but also quite reserved while being that, most of the time.

Is he "melancholic"? Nah
Lots of emotions can be expressed in a subdued, or repressed manner, or sort of through a veneer of social monk code and whatnot.

They're RLM friends / crewmembers, who's all acted in skits - but that one wasn't a skit, that was genuine.

Not "insights", but genuine opinions - which happened to be inaccurate/selective/gap filled, hence unreliable.

It depends on which scene you're talking about - a lot of those in TPM (mostly the less important ones) were actually written and delivered in a pronouncedly laconic, dry "style", which often did come off as stiff or wooden or phoned in terms of acting.

So people describing TPM as wooden or dry or whatever, are probably basing it on a selective memory of the movie.

ROTS is an entirely different issue - if anything, a lot of those scenes are very posh, or melodramatic, but not "dry"; even when HC puts on his blankface in a few moments, you can still the intent behind it.

The "strolling around hallways" has nothing to do with any of that - look at LOTR, how Gandalf and Saruman talked to each other, and later with Elrond; that's just a typical style thing to do with characters and settings of that type.

GoT also has lots of those, though obviously not played anywhere as "straight".
They also did that with Ro Laren and the Maquis old guy, though not sure how well it matched that one - weren't the Maquis supposed to be a bit slightly rebellious ah whatever.


Nothing to do with specific emotions like "melancholy" for sure, it's just a particular style.

Eh, I'd say the formality thing is already sufficient - plus a lot of the times, as I said, especially in the beginning, the sort of expression that was mainly channeled through this "formal demeanor" was laconic professionalism, some dry wit, and stuff of that nature.

Not Luke in Jedi though

Well that's how it goes, she's first under the whole make up and then takes off the mask in the last act.

Obiwan and HC are rathe snappy when captured by GRievous, granted they had something up their sleeve, but it's just a question of the tone the movie was going for - Obiwan is that stoic Jedi with the overpronounced RP, but he had no problems doing the snark stuff.
That's just not what they went with for the Naboo occupation, for better or for worse (I had no problem with it, eh).

Well, the bridge scene from Jedi is quite similar though (in a certain respect).

Nah, you're trying to construct a narrative around "melancholy" here, I don't see how that holds up.

Okay why do people "hate" PotC 2? Because it was too melancholic? Nah, it was just somewhat weaker and movie fandoms enjoy ripping on stuff - that's all there is, no matter the specific "tone".

Then why do they *** all over Empire then

Well yes the thread title is quite corny, but those refer to just general emotions, not specific ones.

That juxtaposition doesn't really hold up when you consider all the contrasting parts of each.

N

There are many scenes and sections that are fast paced.

Quite a bit of banter, even though less, and mainly in a dry deadpan style (which isn't itself less "vibrant" by its nature, just... deadpan).

SW and Lando's part from Jedi - not so much the rest.

Like ESB do you mean?

What "awkward excursions"? A lot of the AOTC scenes were awkward, but that had to do with Anakin's social ineptness which, for some reason, was written into the movie.

Eh, it's kinda known for doing exaclty not that

Okay look you're really spinning a narrative here - this has nothing to do with whether many (certainly not all, as we've just seen) observations in these paragraphs are accurate in themselves, but it's got nothing to do with any of this "poor reception" stuff, alright?

The perceived "lack of emotion" has two causes:
1) Some scenes are actually stuff, not strongly emotional and phoned in.
2) Tone deaf fickle audiences who think if a character is stoic and formal they can't be emotional.
2a) General **i****s that throw around stereotyped criticisms just to feel smug and validated, without actually looking at the source material properly or thinking for 2 seconds - standard.


Two examples from RLM which you brought up (RLM that is, not the examples ):
2a1) the TPM duel analysis, apparently he thinks the only way to channel emotion into a fight is by losing motor control - so he doesn't even look into whether the controlled/fancy/choreographed fight moves have any ferocity or other emotions in them; hence, the judgements are invalid and unsupported, and then lots of people come in and start agreeing how, yes, "overly choreographed" fighting "lacks emotion"

2a2) in AOTC, he first says "Obiwan is a distant monk with no personality", and then he says "he smiles, he laughs, he jokes and sometimes gets really pissed off".

So the initial claim of blandness / lack of relatability or emotion, was just nonsense and omission - not some extrapolation of melancholoy or corruption pessimism or anything, just a false description of the character.

It's later unwittingly "corrected" by himself in order to make some other criticism - but what of all those instances, such as the "skit" from the beginning, where it just happens that he doesn't later correct himself?
Like he easily could've added "wow, and he even enjoys it a bit too much, misusing mindctrol like that" and that would've contradicted the initial "stern and stoic" conclusion - ultimately didn't happen, but it's just as unreliable.

And because RLM are merely the kingpin of this general irrational mindset, you'll see lots of people before 2009, and afterwards, saying the same nonsense about characters having no emotions, and based on what?

Some melancholy?

No - based on some bit of truth (i.e. certain scenes, generally not the key ones), and otherwise lots of nonsense and omission.
It is really as simple and superficial as that

 

They mean it didn't make them feel the nostalgia they had for the OT, so they dismiss it.

 

So because someone likes the PT movies less than the others means his opinion is suspect? Wow. Such accepting-ness of other people's opinions........
TPM/AOTC/ROTS for top 3 spots or nothing?
You can still like every single film but like the PT least. But not hate the PT.
100, 99, 98, 97, 96, 95, 94 compared to 100, 85, 70, 55, 40, 25, 15 etc.

He doesn't have to agree with everything you say. Maybe he sees the movies differently from you? Opinions and all that. No one true way to see the Saga.

 

Well I'd call "bawges" on that, but I guess those are my 2 cents eh

Well and what we're dealing here, is a particular mindset in which the late Nimoy (question: what's the difference from the early one) is perceived as road-kill line reading extras.

No one (sensible) is arguing that they were "supposed to be unemotional", for one because they actually weren't.

"At times" is a good qualifier

Well, the entire 1st half sans opening sequence is very slow paced, for one - though that's not necessarily representative of the entirety of the 3 movies

One in the action opening, 2 in the action midpoint, and 2 simultaneous ones in the action finale