Amph Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

^ Yup, I think the film whiffed on the "easy development" part. This is movie is really dense and not in a good way, but in that Attack of the Clones kind of way.

I think BvS would have been served better if it was shortened and just focused on the "Batman v. Superman" part and of course, found a better way to resolve the conflict other than the "Martha" resolution.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong though, wasn't this the first time (ever?) the Waynes have been shown to be the attackers in the mugging situation? I can't recall any other scenario where the criminal with the gun shot them because Thomas tried to escalate the situation instead of deescalate or simply random/senseless tragedy...

 

IIRC, the only thing Thomas did was to step in front of Martha, to try to protect her. Hardly an escalating move, just a precautionary one.

 

No, it shouldn't be Batman VS Superman at all, imagine what if Marvel pushed out Civil War after the first Iron Man movie.

 

No, Thomas is definitely attempting to throw a punch when he gets shot, according to videos I am watching on YouTube that I cannot link here but which you may find (and timestamp 1:22) under "Batman v Superman - First Scene (Death of the Wayne Family) Subtitulado Latino | 1080p"

 

Yeah, that's yet another TDKR reference. Just like in the book, Thomas is curling his hand into a fist, but on the next panel, the fist opens as he begins toppling, mortally wounded.

 

I'll take your word for it, as I just don't remember TDKR to that detail in the beginning (I remember the later stuff much better), but it does change the narrative somewhat regarding the Waynes' death...

 

I don't remember Superman saying to Batman in The Dark Knight Returns, (something to the effect) "Martha. You have to save Martha." I remember Batman saying:

"We could have changed the world... now look at us...I've become a political liability...and you...you're a joke... I want you to remember, Clark...In all the years to come... in your most private moments... I want you to remember my hand at your throat... I want you to remember the one man who beat you..."​

As I noted above, like its title, Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice was just too dense with it being a Batman origin story, a sequel to Man of Steel, a prequel to Justice League that was inspired by The Dark Knight Returns and The Death of Superman.

I really didn't want to see the death of the Waynes again. Talk about beating a dead horse. That's one of things I like about Burton's 89 Batman, is that they didn't really retell this event. The reason why Snyder put the death of the Waynes in the film was to set up the "Martha" resolution. And the reason why he wanted to kill Superman is so that Batman could be the recruiter for the Justice League (which goes against much of Batman mythos of him being a loaner). Both are why BvS fails as an adaptation of Frank Miller's The Dark Returns and Dan Jurgens' Death of Superman.

 

Which makes no sense, why would Superman become a tool of the government? Even Captain America had refused to do so.

TDKR was just a non-canon(main comic universe) Batman story, choosing it to be the root of BVS, the setup of DCEU, the main cinematic universe was totally wrong. Oh The Death of Superman, garbage material as well.

It's never about how did they handle the BVS material, it's that they should never picked this direction if they really want to build up DCEU.

 

Cold War era Superman:



The Death of Superman origin is an interesting because of the TV Lois and Clark, where Lois and Clark were to get married and therefore, Hollywood superseded the comic book writers so instead of Superman getting married in the comic books, he was killed off.

To me, the story wasn't garbage but rather poignant in the sense there was finally a character that could kill Superman without the use of Kryptonite.

 

I love Miller's DK but his portrayal of Superman is as a government stooge which I never liked , in this film that only happens in Batman's paranoid dreams .

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I don't know if the people that don't think Superman would be a government stooge grew up during the Cold War, but I did. Now, stooge is a very strong word. I would use misguided patriotism. However, Superman was definitely used to promote "the American Way" during the Cold War era.






If the Russians invaded countries in the Western Hemisphere during the Cold War era and threaten the American Way, I would definitely bet the Kent Farm that Superman would fight for the American government.

Even Alan Moore eluded to Superman being a government "stood" in his Watchmen graphic novel with the quote, "The superman exists and he's American."

I think people fail to take in account the era of when The Dark Knight Returns was written and the how Superman was used to promote the American Way during the Cold War.

Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice could not capture this element in the film as Superman is called into a Congressional hearing to determine if he's a threat to humanity and if there's a way to regulate him.

 

Wait, Superman or...Donald Drumpf? I think you're mixing people up there, Sithy.

 

yeah Superman is very American , but that's different to being a govt. stooge .

in the 4 decades of the cold war I don't remember him attacking Russian forces or getting involved in the wars .except in Miller's DK (where he even seems to be killing Russian troops )

but what I mean by government stooge is the situation in Miller's DK where Superman takes orders from the govt. to take out Batman . the situation as I remember it is similar to Watchmen and CA Civil War where the 'masks' were outlawed , and you had to sign up to the government way of doing things , which Superman apparently has , when Batman comes out of retirement Supes is ordered to take him out , I just think it's portraying Supes as a stooge , and I never liked it .

 

I get that. There's a good amount of people that didn't like how Miller portrayed Superman in TDKR. Which is understandable. However, I never thought of Superman would kill Batman, just subdue him. I mean, the fight between them, Superman was pulling his punching and not giving his best effort. I also never felt Superman was being a stooge, but rather upholding the law. He talks to Bruce and tries to convince him to go back at retire before the showdown.

Anyway, I seem to remember an article stating that Miller wanted to revisit TDKR and telling it from Superman's point of view. Moreover, in TDKR III, Miller is redeeming Superman. It's his daughter that's the problem.

 

Superman allowed himself to be the government's superpowered beeyotch as his part of the agreement with the government so that the rest of the superheroes wouldn't not be prosecuted or incarcerated due to some bit of nasty business barely alluded to in some caption. Regardless, the activities he engages on - basically killing enemy combatants in Corto Maltese (or doing god knows what kind other unseen misdeeds) - are really dispecable. I'm kinda surprised that DC editorial allowed Miller to portray one of their two iconic heroes in such a way back then. His editor should've flat out told him no on that and a few other instances.

 

I just saw slowpoke asking the same agonisingly stupid questions and...

 

DarthInvidious: I was under the impression that TDKR was intended as a sort of Elseworlds tale, along the same lines as The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum. In cases such as these, I'm not rankled by the individual work, but rather by the instances wherein the outlier iteration is embraced as definitive. Thankfully, I think the landmark '92 animated series went a long way towards counterbalancing Miller's compelling but unsettling interpretation of the Batman mythos, and the "Superman as fascist-stooge" conceit isn't at all prevalent. (People tend to gripe more about the storytelling "limitations" of Superman's innate nobility.)

 

The term Elseworlds hadn't been coined back in '86 but, yeah, TDKR was probably conceived as a more mature alternative last Batman story to go along with the company's massive reboot done that year with the Crisis. Miller just added social commentary on the media, politics of the day and parody towards the heroes themselves. IIRC, he also premeditatedly intended to break up the longstanding Bats/Supes friendship by having them be at odds in such a way.That's something that DC latched on to since the relationship between Batman and Superman became a strained in the post-Crisis continuity, cooling off to mutual respect and even actual friendship not until several years later.

 

In certain versions of the death scene, Thomas does attempt to fight off Joe Chill.



So it wouldn't mater if he did or didn't do something against Chill, they were still going to be shot. In TDKR, it is as Invidious refers to.

Because as revealed in "The Dark Knight Strikes Again", Brainiac had control of Kandor again and was threatening to destroy the Kandorians if Clark didn't pledge his loyalty to the government. But at the time the story was originally told, the JLA and the rest were told that if they didn't comply, the government would be forced to shut them down. Clark didn't want to fight the government and decided that a compromise was necessary in order to still operate as Superman.

He wasn't a stooge, but in many Silver Age comics, Superman was shown to be very friendly with the different Presidents that followed FDR. In fact, he even enlisted JFK's help in maintaining his dual identity, thus confirming that the office of the President knows and thus he can be counted on as a true patriot of the US.











If Miller had seen these, then his beliefs were well founded, even if a bit misguided.

 

yeah , I've got a bunch of those silver age comics , back then the President was always a trustworthy figure , DC seemed particularly fond of Kennedy .
after that it gets a bit more murky , as I remember it the President would be seen in silhouette or from behind , and of course after Nixon . . . well .

Miller knows his comics , and he was aware that Batman and Superman often had to fight in the old ones , usually under some sort of manipulation , but of course his story is much darker and political of the times , I don't like his portrayal of Supes , but it was like an alternate reality take where Batman gets to be the smartest guy in the room etc.

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I can't speak of the post Kennedy era until Reagan.



This was seen in both "Legends" and in the early Giffen/DeMatteis era of the JLI. Following that, though, Clark rarely had interaction with whoever was in office at the time. As far as I know, he never met Bush. Clinton attended his funeral, but it was the Cyborg-Superman who shook hands with him. After that it was fictional Presidents.

 

Enjoy this funny edit/dub of Batman V Superman.

Watch as Lex Luthor tries to do Karaoke to Backstreet Boys.
Bruce Wayne tries to recruit Clark Kent knowing he is Superman to team up with him. Clark denies him, and watch how Bruce handles the rejection.

Plus watch as Batman rides in his Batmobile while listening to Bruno Mars and Ariana Grande.

Enjoy and share!