Saga Best PT/ST opening episode: TPM or TFA? *POLL included*

Phantom Menace felt like a complete film in its own right, while still being a part of a larger series. TFA had too many loose ends that make additional films mandatory. I preferred a lot of the practical effects and sets as well. Anyways, more points to TPM for characters, music, and originality.

 

It's also A New Hope 2.0.

 

I mentioned elsewhere that there at times some rather forced similarities: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/ro-or-tfa.50043595/#post-54059433

Repeating motifs like orphan living on a desert is fine, but other things like Death Star 3.0 and Trench Run 2.0 were indeed tiring.That said, I'll tolerate some rehashing in exchange for great characters, dialogue, pacing, and visuals. On the other hand, TPM has an original plot because its so bad and uninteresting that no one would ever try and recreate it.

 

Still A New Hope 2.0 because JJ is unoriginal and SW 1977 is his favorite.

 

I love how, even a year later, people still seem to bring up the surface level similarities between TFA and ANH that anyone with half a brain could figure out. How about you discuss the characters? You know, the meat and potatoes?

TFA's story is far from original, but the story at least has stakes, a compelling villain, and characters you can care about. I can't say any of that towards TPM, which had a painfully boring story that really isn't even important to the rest of the saga.

 

It's not just surface plot details, it's also the entire visual style being almost identical to ANH, and the complete lack of new designs (the closest things to a new design are the landing craft in the opening, and the B-wing style landing craft).

Every single hip design is completely new. Every single one. The only location designs re-used are the Tatooine streets, reminiscent of Mos Eisley. Other than that, everything we see is new. This is the complete opposite of TFA's boring stagnancy.

And I don't see what's so amazing about the new characters. Rey has very little motivation, her arc only shows up in 2 scenes, and she's overcome it by the end of the film with no explanation. Finn goes from scared, and not wanting to fight, to being a normal person, despite the fact he was basically brainwashed from birth. Poe is literally no better a character than Wedge.

Kylo literally is Darth Vader. He's a young pupil of the last Jedi, who turns to evil, murders his colleagues, serves under the emperor of dictatorship. It makes it very hard to believe his inadequacy issues when he's basically already accomplished the same things as Vader.

The lack of major new character arcs that actually work leaves the rest of the plot looking the same as A New Hope. The story hasn't changed one bit. It's as if ESB and ROTJ never happened.

The story in TFA re-uses just about every single plot point from ANH. Seriously, I can't think of a single one that wasn't used. TPM used at most, young protagonist on Tatooine, wise mentor, and royal woman. Everything else was it's own thing, not some reference back to ANH.

I don't see any stakes in TFA. Rey has no reason to support the rebellion, and she never shows any sign of wanting to fight injustice or anything. The destruction of 5 planets is waved off even more than the destruction of Alderann was. Han can now use Hyperspace as his personal Deus ex Machina to break past shields. Jedi training is pointless now too thanks to Rey's ability to learn techniques she's never heard about.

TPM is important to the rest of the saga. It sets up the Master-Padawan dynamic, introduces most of the characters of the PT, sets up the Trade Federation, the Sith, the Senate, the Jedi Council, Watto, Anakin's fears of losing his mother. It's an incredibly important piece of the story.

So far TFA has set-up the exact same configuration from ANH. That's about all that's really new.

 

Hmm. I never thought of that very obvious angle. What is Rey's motivation? But then again, she never actually commits until the MF flight to Luke. And even then, the look she gives at the end is not one of "teach me the force" but "take this horrible thing away from me." Other than that, she's always in the process of running from something. Good parallel on Poe-Wedge. I went in thinking he was going to be part of the main cast, but he's supporting really.

Rey and Finn were two very interesting characters - on paper. It is also why they are the two I want to see the most in Ep. 8&9. Their setup is interesting enough that I hope not-JJ director/writers take advantage of their setup. Although Finn's most interesting setup up was his AWOL. I'm really not quite sure why he went AWOL other than he's afraid to fight?

It isn't fair to pick between TPM and TFA at this point, but I went TPM simply because I found the rise of Palps and fall of Anakin fascinating. And both were setup nicely in TPM. Palps was perfect, Anakin less so.

 

Kylo Ren is, in substance, nothing like Darth Vader. Anakin Skywalker wanted to be a good man but he was seduced by the dark side of the force, with its promise of power great enough to end his suffering, and in the process became lost within Darth Vader. Kylo Ren wants to be lost in the dark side because he believes that it will heal his pain by muting his feelings. His 'weakness' in this endeavour is that he's being seduced by the light side of the force, a concept not really seen before in Star Wars. Beyond the most superficial elements, the two characters couldn't be more different.

 

I'm fond of both films.

BTW, what's this sudden hatred for The Force Awakens? Sure, it has its faults, but this backlash is over the top... kinda like the initial ethusiasm. It makes me think that Rogue One will go through the same thing.

Personally, I like The Phantom Menace more, partly because of nostalgia (I was 11 years old when it came out), partly because it stands on its own legs. I liked the adventure, the action, the music and the story, including galactic politics. It dared to be different from the Original Trilogy. Of course, for most fans, that aspect was to the movie's detriment. Moreover, it had two very annoying characters (Anakin and Jar-Jar), a weak villain (Darth Maul, however awesome he was in the novels/comics, TCW and Rebels) and the acting was wooden.

The Force Awakens is better directed and better acted, and that makes it a better film, but the producers played it extremely safe. The characters and story are the new/altered versions of the OT, in which Rey is Luke, Han Solo is Ben Kenobi, Kylo Ren is Vader, Hux is Tarkin, Snoke is the Emperor, Starkiller Base is the Death Star, X-Wings fly in trenches, etc. The vehicle and planet designs are nothing new.

Luckily, I loved the TFA characters, they had so much life in them, which makes me optimsitic about Episode VIII, which is rumored to take the story in a new direction after the derivativeness of VII.

 

It's far more than that and it's far more than just the surface. When something like 80% plus of TFA's story comes from ANH alone then the rest from the other 5 movies in some form or fashion down to said many of the characters.

If they meant the story to be just about the characters as such then they wouldn't need to pull out all the old designs in costumes and vehicles and update them or riff on them. They very specifically make the most "looks like plain old Earth" Star Wars movie one would hope is ever seen.

The reason is that SW movies are not simply about the characters. It's about the characters in the settings and environments they exist in and the world around them. What do each say about the other and how everything interacts?

Everything from the character's look, where and how they live, to what they wear as well as more mundane things like dialogue are all part of the mix.

If Han and Kylo Ren have the same talk on a flat ground on a sunny day it's not going to have the same impact as where it did take place.

I don't know why as TPM has all of those and more.

Anakin becoming a Jedi isn't important to the saga? Meeting his future wife and Luke and Leia's mother isn't important? Palpatine becoming Supreme Chancellor of the Republic isn't important? Anakin as the Chosen One and the balance of the Force isn't important? The introduction of the Jedi Order as well as the Sith isn't important?

Without it the rest of the saga can't happen.

 

There's one.

This is an important point for the respective, well, importance; it's easier to see the significance of things in TPM.

For me, TPM benefits from a chronological viewing, for instance to think about Anakin as a bright young boy who doesn't want things to change. But my preference of TFA from almost a year ago stands. I think it does very well with personal stakes amid the emerging galactic stakes.

 

Which is also a surface level detail. Anyone can notice that both films have an X-wing just as much as they can notice how each film open on a desert planet.

What about the aliens? Jakku in TFA is full of all kinds of new, never previously seen aliens. Compare that to Tatooine in TPM, which is full of all kinds of existing aliens and designs. Dewbacks, Jabba, Bib Fortuna, Greedo, Rodians, Jawas, Tusken Raiders, Banthas, Twi'lek's, and more.

At least they have actual arcs. Nobody has any sort of arc really in TPM, with the exception of Jar Jar, the most hated character in the film ironically.

Nope. I don't remember the scene in ANH where Vader talks to Darth Maul's severed head, nor do I remember when he fought Luke and Leia on a crumbling Death Star. I also don't remember Vader being conflicted at all in ANH, unlike Kylo in TFA.

Again, I don't remember the scene where Princess Leia escaped a Star Destroyer in ANH, or the scene where Luke and Leia fight Rathars off the falcon.

You could literally say the same thing about TPM. "I don't see any stakes in TPM. Anakin has no reason to support Naboo." Why should the audience even care about Naboo? Maybe if the planet was going through a plague or epidemic during the blockade, then the story could have been interesting. Instead, we have no reason to care about them because their planet seems completely fine.

Almost all of these things are explained in AOTC. You could easily say that Clones sets up the master-padawan dynamic, or Anakin's fear of losing his mother. Both of these are established in the first 20 minutes of the movie. The most important thing that happens in TPM is Ob-Wan and Anakin meet, which was something we never really needed to see. The whole PT could have started with them already knowing each other, and it would have made almost no difference.

 

This is where I feel like TPM really dropped the ball. This movie did little to establish a relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan, unlike ANH which gave us Luke & Han or TFA which gave us Rey & Finn. By the time we meet Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC they seem to really dislike one another. Where's the great friendship we were told about by old Ben? TPM just ended up feeling like a huge missed opportunity in this regard.

 

This is, by far, the most superficial reading of The Force Awakens possible.

 

It did establish the relationship. Obi-Wan took on Anakin because of Qui-Gon. Unlike Luke and Han where the relationship goes basically nowhere after ANH we see the building of this relationship over time.

Now of course there is the 10 year jump from TPM to AOTC then another 3 years to ROTS. It's by the third movie that we see the relationship between them has grown to the point referenced by Obi-Wan in ANH.

I don't see this dislike you do. I see a strong bond between two people but they are not yet the friends they become later because of their master and padawan relationship.

 

What do you mean Luke & Han's relationship goes nowhere after ANH? Han risks his life to save Luke on Hoth, Vader uses Han & friends to lure Luke into recklessly going to Bespin to save them, & the whole beginning of ROTJ is a mission for Luke & friends to save Han. We are often shown a clear comradery between the two, even if they have different ways of seeing things.

As for Obi-Wan & Anakin, it seems odd that we don't see the high point of their relationship until episode 3, and even then Anakin turns on his master (and supposed good friend) pretty easily. However this is about TPM and I feel there was a missed opportunity to set up a good dynamic between Obi-Wan & Anakin which we could then see slowly crumble over the next movie. If you saw a bond between these two in that movie then that's great, but I totally didn't see it.

 

I mean just that it goes nowhere in terms of any real development. They are best friends at the end of ANH and nothing changes. That remains the same. That is not a wrong thing to do but it can't go anywhere which is why they is no scene of true growth or significance between them again. Han can't help Luke on his path to being a Jedi and so they are basically apart after ANH.

Yes Han saves Luke and Luke saves Han. The same is true for Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC. Anakin saves Obi-Wan several times. The Coruscant chase, goes to save him on Geonosis and from Dooku. Obi-Wan also saves Anakin from abandoning his duty as a Jedi and to continue after Dooku rather than go after Padme. Anakin and Obi-Wan also have a different way of seeing things. There is a clear camaraderie between the two in AOTC but they are also Master and Padawan and Anakin is learning from Obi-Wan the Jedi way so it can't simply be the brotherly relationship that Luke and Han have. That comes to fruition after Anakin is a Jedi Knight himself.

It's not odd in the least as the above. If you really believe that Anakin turns on Obi-Wan that easily that is your view and one that I simply do not see.

Yet somehow people see this bond between Luke and Han who are mostly going at each other all through ANH until their good-bye on Yavin. As I said then they spend next to no time together for the rest of the saga which now includes TFA. There really is nothing much that could have come of them meeting again unless it was for Han to blame Luke for Ben and since their was none of that at all in the movie then obviously Han didn't feel that way and if he ever did then he doesn't anymore.

So what we have here is Luke and Han spend the most time together in ANH and then trade rescues where one or the other is basically incapacitated. Nothing much really happens. Compare that to Anakin and Obi-Wan who share a bond seen over two movies that progresses from AOTC to one that is clearly developed to ROTS. Their incredible bond is shown how strong it is for Anakin by how his great love for Obi-Wan becomes total hatred and the effect on Obi-Wan is abundantly clear.

 

I suppose this is simply a matter of me having a different vision than what Lucas went with. There is no reason why Obi-Wan could not have had a brotherly relationship with his padawan. In fact this might have worked out much better in the long run from a storytelling perspective as we could spend time building their friendship on screen. The way their relationship is presented in AOTC, they seem to detest one another. Obi-Wan puts up with Anakin only because he promised Qui-Gon he would teach him. Anakin only puts up with Obi-Wan because he's his master so he's kind of obligated to. So in ROTS when their friendship is supposedly at its peak, their words and actions feel so disingenuous - which isn't helped by a fair amount of wooden acting. Again, if you saw a great bond between them that's fine. I'm not here to bash, only to say that I didn't see any great friendship that was alluded to in the OT. The relationship felt cold and this unfortunately made some of the events in ROTS fall flat later on.